Catholic hospitals and the mark of the beast

[Benadam]

I am interested in enterpretations of Revelation founded on an internalized perspective. This requires the following:
1, A meditative study of the experience of suffering especially of the martyrs who lived during the persecutions of the time.
2. Compassionate view of current suffering joined to Christ.
3. personal experience.

I believe that Revelation requires a union with the suffering of Christ to be experienced for a proper enterpretation. The one who reads the book is one who has experienced first hand what it reveals. The one’s who listens are those that witnessed the suffering of the one who reads.
A few days ago, for the first time, I saw in current events that fit an internalized enterpretation of the mark of the beast.

Mark on the forehead= a conscience is formed according to a name
mark on the hand= whatever image that forms the conscience will be manifest in works.

Ok with the prerequisites out of the way I’ll just dive into what I think I see and ask for opinions.

I just learned something recently about the Freedom of Choice Act. That an abortion would not be just a priviledge in the US but a right and that it would force Catholic hospitals to perform abortions.

I know they will not. One third of the hospitals in this country would close. Familiar ratio? Well, as I was putting myself in the place of one of those catholic doctors an image rose up of a doctor with his hand out in front as if about to receive a stamp. I kinda felt wierd for a second and I remembered; those who would not recieve the mark could not buy or sell. I was really taken back because I didn’t really have any idea how such a thing could be but there it was.

Am I being sensational or is this a peek into the battle in heaven come to earth?

 

[Christy_Beth]

It’s hard to put the prophecies in the Bible up against modern times. I think it always has been. There have been those in each generation that have spoken about these times.

I’m not saying that you are outright wrong. Just be careful. Satan tries everything he can to get us away from God. Sometimes I wonder about these days myself.

 

[3Sanctus]

Christ told His Apostles that not even He - the Son - know the time the world would end. Not only has the Father not shared that information with anyone, including the Son, but not even Christ - in all His Holy Wisdom - has been able to discern the time on His own.

If Our Lord Himself is completely unaware of when the end of the world will be, then it’s really just a waste of our time and possibly a spiritual hindrance for us to try and match things up in this manner.

That doesn’t change the fact we must - as a responsibility of all Christians - see and admit of the presence of evil in the world. However, worrying about the Endtimes and other such prophecies holds no benefit for the faithful of the Church Militant.

Stephen

 

[ryanoneil]

Am I being sensational or is this a peek into the battle in heaven come to earth?

I don’t think there is anything wrong with making comparisons to the Apocalypse and our own times, but I don’t hinge “end of the world” senario’s on these things.

I agree the mark of the beast and the Lamb are inward and discernible only through the actions of those marked. Having it on the hand signifies the change in what we Christians do as a result of our loyalty, while the forhead mark signifies how our loyalty changes the way we think.

In the first century, the mark of the beast was the willingness to worship Rome’s power (emperor worship was demanded in the marketplace). God’s mark was revealed in the Christians refusal to make sacrifices to the emperor. They ended up as a people marked by Rome for death, and at the same time God marked these martyrs for eternal life.

This lesson of the two marks is timeless. The strategy of the dragon has always been to make it socially advantageous to compromise with evil. So, I don’t think it is sensational to say today’s circumstances are related to the battle for our eternal souls, even though the circumstances are different (doctors won’t be martyred for not performing abortions).

I wouldn’t relate this to some “end of world” senario though. Do you?

Peace

 

[Benadam]

I don’t think there is anything wrong with making comparisons to the Apocalypse and our own times, but I don’t hinge “end of the world” senario’s on these things.

I agree the mark of the beast and the Lamb are inward and discernible only through the actions of those marked. Having it on the hand signifies the change in what we Christians do as a result of our loyalty, while the forhead mark signifies how our loyalty changes the way we think.

In the first century, the mark of the beast was the willingness to worship Rome’s power (emperor worship was demanded in the marketplace). God’s mark was revealed in the Christians refusal to make sacrifices to the emperor. They ended up as a people marked by Rome for death, and at the same time God marked these martyrs for eternal life.

This lesson of the two marks is timeless. The strategy of the dragon has always been to make it socially advantageous to compromise with evil. So, I don’t think it is sensational to say today’s circumstances are related to the battle for our eternal souls, even though the circumstances are different (doctors won’t be martyred for not performing abortions).

I wouldn’t relate this to some “end of world” senario though. Do you?

Peace

I don’t waste much energy trying to see prophecy in current events, I feel firmly grounded about where I’m at because I have the faith of our fathers.

I see this invisible war being waged throughout history. I think it’s influence into the visible world becomes easier to see at times and at others it seems to recede into sublimity. I see it as a mindset that has been in the unconscious mind for ages and when it has a large eneogh and powerfull eneogh collective able to pose it’self as a new light in the name of good it will emerge into consciousness and operate openly finally free and unhindered by them archaic warmongering religions.

It’s supposed to remain a secret so I expect it will untill the time but I also believe it will become an increasingly more powerfull witness to the truth of who is who as it rises up into human consciousness. I think this happens from time to time throughout history. Something like St Peter mentioned. "
As the morning star rises in your minds.

I’m surrounded by gnostics and new agers and I’m constantly having to listen to the dense headed regurgitations we’ve all heard about our faith and no matter how often my response forces their words to stop flowing their bias remains. I’ve been able to get eneogh in edgewise to a couple of them and showing them this possible meaning of things had more impact than any rebuttle I’ve stated no matter how exposing it was.

Anyway I had never seen the symbols used by St John come to the forefront so obviously for me before not that I think the end is right around the corner or anything.

I have high regards for many on this forum including you and was hoping to read some opinions. Not so much if it means the end is near but if this connection is authentic in it’s use of symbols and if the way I applioed them seems legit.

Thanks for your imput

When there isn’t even a rumour of a war seems quite a ways down the road to me.

 

[Benadam]

Christ told His Apostles that not even He - the Son - know the time the world would end. Not only has the Father not shared that information with anyone, including the Son, but not even Christ - in all His Holy Wisdom - has been able to discern the time on His own.

If Our Lord Himself is completely unaware of when the end of the world will be, then it’s really just a waste of our time and possibly a spiritual hindrance for us to try and match things up in this manner.

That doesn’t change the fact we must - as a responsibility of all Christians - see and admit of the presence of evil in the world. However, worrying about the Endtimes and other such prophecies holds no benefit for the faithful of the Church Militant.

Stephen

Amen and thank you for your words of caution. I would never wish to help the evil spirit distract the faithfull from the true object of our faith.
Pax.

 

[Benadam]

It’s hard to put the prophecies in the Bible up against modern times. I think it always has been. There have been those in each generation that have spoken about these times.

I’m not saying that you are outright wrong. Just be careful. Satan tries everything he can to get us away from God. Sometimes I wonder about these days myself.

These days are something to wonder at. I agree about applying bible prophecies to current events. I don’t waste time seeking those things either. I have ben developing over time meanings for various symbols in the text. This kinda happened.

Thank you for your warm approach and gentle words of caution.
May God Bless

 

[Junebug999]

Truly, I believe when God wants us to understand Revelation, he will make it very clear to his Church and our Church with the guidance of the Holy Spirit will advise us. I don’t believe God will make a private revelation to a man to instruct us. Do be careful also – that evil one is prowling around seeking who he can devour.

God Bless you!

 

[ryanoneil]

Not so much if it means the end is near but if this connection is authentic in it’s use of symbols and if the way I applioed them seems legit.

I just learned something recently about the Freedom of Choice Act. That an abortion would not be just a priviledge in the US but a right and that it would force Catholic hospitals to perform abortions.

Does that mean one (or both) of the beasts is the U.S. government in your scenario?

 

[JasonHC]

I am interested in enterpretations of Revelation founded on an internalized perspective. This requires the following:
1, A meditative study of the experience of suffering especially of the martyrs who lived during the persecutions of the time.
2. Compassionate view of current suffering joined to Christ.
3. personal experience.

I believe that Revelation requires a union with the suffering of Christ to be experienced for a proper enterpretation. The one who reads the book is one who has experienced first hand what it reveals. The one’s who listens are those that witnessed the suffering of the one who reads.
A few days ago, for the first time, I saw in current events that fit an internalized enterpretation of the mark of the beast.

Mark on the forehead= a conscience is formed according to a name
mark on the hand= whatever image that forms the conscience will be manifest in works.

Ok with the prerequisites out of the way I’ll just dive into what I think I see and ask for opinions.

I just learned something recently about the Freedom of Choice Act. That an abortion would not be just a priviledge in the US but a right and that it would force Catholic hospitals to perform abortions.

I know they will not. One third of the hospitals in this country would close. Familiar ratio? Well, as I was putting myself in the place of one of those catholic doctors an image rose up of a doctor with his hand out in front as if about to receive a stamp. I kinda felt wierd for a second and I remembered; those who would not recieve the mark could not buy or sell. I was really taken back because I didn’t really have any idea how such a thing could be but there it was.

Am I being sensational or is this a peek into the battle in heaven come to earth?

Please do not take this too personally, but what you are doing is a lot like what many protestants do: They use newspaper headlines to interpret scriptures. I say this not to mock you, rather this is the common trend, and has been this way for ages. One only had to see the history of apocalypticism and see that colonial Americans once thought that King George was the antichrist, and that the stamp act was the mark of the beast. Interestingly, the word ‘antichrist’ isn’t even in Revelation.

Ultimately, understanding Revelation requires adequate understanding of the Old Testament, since it takes all sorts of OT imagery and brings them together. Reading Revelation apart from the Old Testament context is like a foreigner who comes to America and hears the phrase, “It’s raining cats and dogs” while not understanding what it means.

If you’re interested in a good Bible study in St. John’s Relevation, I highly encourage you to listen to Scott Hahn’s “The End” which explains how a rather large majority of Revelation already happened in the first century. It also explains how Revelation is on-going, and how we experience Revelation whenever we go to Mass (since every single chapter of Revelation has liturgical imagery). For example, the ‘lamb’ (as a reference to Jesus) appears 12 times in the book. It also depicts presbyters (i.e. priests) prostrating themselves (Rev 5:8), vestments (Rev 4:4), candles (Rev 1:12), angels (Rev 5:11), saints (Rev 8:3), censers (Rev 8:3), an altar (Rev 8:3), thrones (Rev 4:2), silence (Rev 8:3), ), worship on the Lord’s Day (Rev 1:10), “Holy, Holy, Holy” (Rev 4:8), the “Alleluja” (Rev 19:1), and ‘manna’ (Rev 2:17, which refers to Jesus based on John 6:58). Even the beginning of Revelation where God calls the 7 churches in Asia Minor to repent is a lot like the Confetior, and these words from Rev 19:9 sounds strikingly familiar for us who attend Mass:

“Blessed are those who have been called to the wedding feast of the Lamb” (Rev 19:9)

Note - the word ‘blessed’ could be translated as ‘happy’.

Interestingly it is at this wedding feast where Christ and the Church becomes ‘one flesh’ as St. Paul put it. We call this the Eucharist. This is why going to Mass or the Eastern Orthodox Divine Liturgy was considered stepping into heaven on earth by the Church Fathers.

Also, note how these words…

Hebrews 12:22-24

But you have come to Mount Zion, to the heavenly Jerusalem, the city of the living God. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the judge of all men, to the spirits of righteous men made perfect, to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel

…sound a lot like the end of Revelation:

Revelation 21:1-2

Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband."

The Church Fathers spoke about all these things as if they were a no-brainer. Yet, many protestants have influenced us to read Revelation apart from it’s historical and liturgical context. One more point to mention: The word ‘coming’ (in Gk. Parousia) as a reference to Jesus’s Second Coming could also be translated as ‘presence’. It is therefore no surprise that Jesus ‘comes’ in the Mass. He makes his Real Presence known to us in a very tangible way through the Eucharist. In short, we actually experience the Book of Revelation every time we attend Mass.

 

[M0nkey]

Well, the FOCA act is definitely a step in the right direction that will set the right stage for the coming of the anti-christ. I’m not saying our current president is any such thing, but killing infants on-demand and eugenics is definitely a powerful tool anybody can wield for the destruction of many. That includes Christians and the Church.

I suggest reading “The Lord of the World.” It’s the closest thing we have as far as accuracy, I think.

 

[spauline]

I agree with you, ryan, you had a good response: The mark of the beast is timeless. For the same martyrs that refused literal worship of the Roman Emperor find a later fulfillment in the Catholics that resisted the Protestant persecution in England under Queen [elizabeth?]: deny Catholicism and embrace the Anglican Schism, or face death.

hence, the modern economic sanctions that are coming in refusal to comply with murder of the unborn is another way in which this is fulfilled.

Benadam, God bless you for meditating, and I for one don’t think you are like the Protestants, because you are seeing it in a metaphorical context.

For there are ages and development in the history of the Church, and the multilayered symbolism of the Scriptures, especially the apocalypse, affords for profound depth.

The trick is, as i think you understand, Benadam, is to view the more sinister imagery in the book in a spiritual light, rather than making it literal. In that vein, I think there is much within the book that can apply to our modern time, even if the end of the world is far distant, seeing as much of approved private revelation suggests that an imminent chastisement can bring the world back to faith, so that the final falling away from the Gospel is yet distant, after the coming period of reconcilation and restoration.

FWIW, there is a thread, Benadam, in which I and others explore a more spiritual application of the apocalypse in the Back Fence, if you would be interested:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=306966

God bless you!

scott

 

[Benadam]

Does that mean one (or both) of the beasts is the U.S. government in your scenario?

No, they are conforming to an image that can be called a beast because it is devoid of the image God presents on earth. The beast is worshipped in the unconscious and yet to rise into conscious awareness. I think that is why Jesus doesn’t return untill the religion of anti-christ is consciously chosen.

 

[Benadam]

I agree with you, ryan, you had a good response: The mark of the beast is timeless. For the same martyrs that refused literal worship of the Roman Emperor find a later fulfillment in the Catholics that resisted the Protestant persecution in England under Queen [elizabeth?]: deny Catholicism and embrace the Anglican Schism, or face death.

hence, the modern economic sanctions that are coming in refusal to comply with murder of the unborn is another way in which this is fulfilled.

Benadam, God bless you for meditating, and I for one don’t think you are like the Protestants, because you are seeing it in a metaphorical context.

For there are ages and development in the history of the Church, and the multilayered symbolism of the Scriptures, especially the apocalypse, affords for profound depth.

The trick is, as i think you understand, Benadam, is to view the more sinister imagery in the book in a spiritual light, rather than making it literal. In that vein, I think there is much within the book that can apply to our modern time, even if the end of the world is far distant, seeing as much of approved private revelation suggests that an imminent chastisement can bring the world back to faith, so that the final falling away from the Gospel is yet distant, after the coming period of reconcilation and restoration.

FWIW, there is a thread, Benadam, in which I and others explore a more spiritual application of the apocalypse in the Back Fence, if you would be interested:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=306966

God bless you!

scott

Thank you spauline. Your post is what I was seeking when I posted this thread, at the same time it explains and validates. Thank you for the link as well. I would like to extend thanks to the other posters as well. Very positive posts. Also thanks to those wishing to guard my soul from deception.

 

[spauline]

Thank you spauline. Your post is what I was seeking when I posted this thread, at the same time it explains and validates. Thank you for the link as well. I would like to extend thanks to the other posters as well. Very positive posts. Also thanks to those wishing to guard my soul from deception.

You are very welcome, Benadam, and may God bless you!

 

[JasonHC]

Well, the FOCA act is definitely a step in the right direction that will set the right stage for the coming of the anti-christ.

I don’t want to sound like I’m attacking anyone with my response, but where in Revelation is the word antichrist ever used?

I ask this because the truth is there is no “Mr. Anti-Christ” anywhere in St. John’s Revelation.

For some reason, a lot of people are led to believe there is a “Mr. Anti-Christ” as many protestants seem to teach. Scripture teaches that there are many of them (1 John 2:18) and that they deny that Jesus came in the flesh (2 John 1:7). These people were likely the 1st century gnostics who denied the Real Presence of the Eucharist by saying Jesus was not truly human.

 

[spauline]

I don’t want to sound like I’m attacking anyone with my response, but where in Revelation is the word antichrist ever used?

I ask this because the truth is there is no “Mr. Anti-Christ” anywhere in St. John’s Revelation.

For some reason, a lot of people are led to believe there is a “Mr. Anti-Christ” as many protestants seem to teach. Scripture teaches that there are many of them (1 John 2:18) and that they deny that Jesus came in the flesh (2 John 1:7). These people were likely the 1st century gnostics who denied the Real Presence of the Eucharist by saying Jesus was not truly human.

It is deeper than you are making it out to be.

Admittedly, there are many spirits of antichrist, but non-defined Church Tradition foresees a final antichrist, the supreme deceiver and persecutor of God’s People in the time of the very end.

One powerful argument is that if the final trial in Jewish history prior to Christ was the Maccabbean struggle, in which the blasphemous pagan Antiochus Epiphanies rose up and forced an apostasy on the Jews, being himself a supreme type of antichrist, a singular man who horrifically persecuted the Jews, a stage of darkness that was the final history in the Scriptures before Coming of Messiah, how much more so should the People of the New Covenant, the Catholic Church, follow the Prefigured People, so that the final history of the New People of God before the SECOND Coming of Christ shall be a great and horrific persecution under a single man who attempts to blasphemously impose apostasy on the Catholic Church?

Although, admittedly, the apocalypse has meaning that far transcends merely these events. For the beast and false prophet, for example, bear imagery that, from Catholic Tradition, applies to ANY of the great ages of sin in Salvation History. For the beast is more than just pagan Rome, or the end times antichrist. It is the fallen nature that has caused humanity to repeatedly rebel against the Divine Will in salvation history, seeking its fulfillment merely in this world, and rising up to wage war on the just of God.

 

[ryanoneil]

I agree with Spauline that there many levels to these verses. You are also right that the word “anti-christ” is not used. The verse pointing to an individual is:

Wisdom is needed here; one who understands can calculate the number of the beast, for it is a number that stands for a person. His number is six hundred and sixty-six. (Rev 13:18)

Traditionally the early chruch associated this number with Nero Caesar (who demanded emperor worship in the marketplace under penalty of death). He also demanded sacrifice from the Temple Jews who initially complied as a matter of survival. And one factor leading to the Jewish-Roman war was when the sacrifices to the emperor stopped. But this initial fulfillment pointed to another individual at the end time.

 

[Benadam]

hello all, I’m not a stranger to CAF even though perhaps strange

I posted once in this thread but noticed the congeal atmosphere and I seemed like a dollart amongst you so I figured a salutation of some kind is due to a group who seem as balanced as this one in regards of Revelation.

In reading the posts this thought came to mind and seemed applicable and perhaps even a contribution too.

There is a fundamental structure of revelation that mirrors Christ Incarnate in perfect opposition.

Christ’s Church teaches that man is lost and needs to find God and in God will find himself. God reveals man to himself. Man can only be restored by seeing God with his own eyes and in that image find himself.

Gnosticism teaches that man is lost and needs to find his true self within to find God. Man can only be restored by searching his own depths untill he unravels the shroud of death from his true self. When the true self is found,God is found .

The lost One will be all of them as one man.

Ever notice how a mob is constructed? Those in front shouting the loudest and express the brutish passion associated with mob psychology. They are the blind followers, mindlessly expressing the passion infused into them by their masters. The masters take their cowardly places safely at the back of the mob. They are the hidden mind that the blind and mindless keep in constant view for approval or correction.

The lost One is akin to that and for similar reasons reveals himself openly only after his mob has made him safe and surrounded.

 

[Benadam]

hello all, I’m not a stranger to CAF even though perhaps strange

I posted once in this thread but noticed the congeal atmosphere and I seemed like a dollart amongst you so I figured a salutation of some kind is due to a group who seem as balanced as this one in regards of Revelation.

In reading the posts this thought came to mind and seemed applicable and perhaps even a contribution too.

There is a fundamental structure of revelation that mirrors Christ Incarnate in perfect opposition.

Christ’s Church teaches that man is lost and needs to find God and in God will find himself. God reveals man to himself. Man can only be restored by seeing God with his own eyes and in that image find himself.

Gnosticism teaches that man is lost and needs to find his true self within to find God. Man can only be restored by searching his own depths untill he unravels the shroud of death from his true self. When the true self is found,God is found .

The lost One will be all of them as one man.

Ever notice how a mob is constructed? Those in front shouting the loudest and express the brutish passion associated with mob psychology. They are the blind followers, mindlessly expressing the passion infused into them by their masters. The masters take their cowardly places safely at the back of the mob. They are the hidden mind that the blind and mindless keep in constant view for approval or correction.

The lost One is akin to that and for similar reasons reveals himself openly only after his mob has made him safe and surrounded.

oops…I thought I was posting this on another thread:blush: