catholic hypocracy

[Edward_H]

Well, not to de-rail things…but there is an older, more substantial, classical definition of hypocrisy, which I think is actually more useful.

Today we think a hypocrite is someone who says one thing and does another.

The older, more obscure definition is that a hypocrite is someone who says one thing and BELIEVES another.

This latter type person is more insidious and dangerous because it clouds and confuses conversation and truth among people.

Saying we’re going to do one thing sincerely…and then not doing it…is merely the human struggle.

We say we’re going to stop spending on restaurants, we fall short

We say we’re going to lose weight, but we don’t

We say we’re going to read the Bible every day…

We say we’re going to buy our wife gifts and be more generous, we fall short.

These aren’t acts of hypocrisy. Our intent is sincere…our ability to follow through is what is defective, insufficient.

That’s human struggle. That’s good.

The devil would love for us to call human struggle, hypocrisy. But it’s not true.

Beginning and beginning again is part of our nature.

 

[sw85]

Technically, “Catholic hypocrisy” would be the exact opposite of what you’re describing: Catholics who don’t believe abortion should be legal but personally would have one.

Yeah. Hypocrisy is a refusal to condemn in oneself what one judges to be a flaw in others.

You can’t be accused of hypocrisy for not judging something as a flaw in others.

 

[crazzeto]

I meet a lot of Catholics who believe in abortion even though they say that they personally would not have one

does this make sense?

No, it’s a totally inconsistant opinion derived from the individual viewing abortion merely as a “contravertial political issue”, they believe this answer gets them out of the debate at best. At worst they mean they really do believe in it, and they just don’t want to hear it from you about getting one.

A Catholic is not free to “beleive in abortion” no matter the reasoning. Nor are they allowed to equivocate on it.

 

[TimothyH]

Why is it more tempting to always turn these questions into macro/governmental/aggregate issues. Gov’t vs. Catholic.

God knows these are big problems. He doesn’t ask us to solve these sorts of problems by ourselves, today.

He does ask us to spread his Gospel with our very lives. So if we find a so called “hypocrite”…there’s our work for some time.

It always seems more “fun” to boil this issues into some big intractable “thing”.

More noble, I suppose, to fail at superhuman goals, then to struggle on with 1 on 1 formation of mistaken brothers and sisters.

This is the way Mother Theresa looked at things.

She was asked why she doesn’t work for social justice or advocate for government programs. She replied that she didn’t have time for that, that it was wonderful work, but that she had people dying in the streets and really didn’t have time to just leave them there to die alone while she ran off to lobby government officials for funding.

-Tim-

 

[Edward_H]

This is the way Mother Theresa looked at things.

She was asked why she doesn’t work for social justice or advocate for government programs. She replied that she didn’t have time for that, that it was wonderful work, but that she had people dying in the streets and really didn’t have time to just leave them there to die alone while she ran off to lobby government officials for funding.

-Tim-

Beautiful. I heard that she used to say “eck, eck, eck”…[one, one one] to remind her sisters to love the one in front of them.

I need that tattooed on my brain.

 

[Izdaari]

It’s not necessarily inconsistent to believe something is immoral without wanting it to be illegal. It depends on what you believe the proper role of government is.

 

[Hail_Linus]

It’s not necessarily inconsistent to believe something is immoral without wanting it to be illegal. It depends on what you believe the proper role of government is.

I use the following example with those people. Many people don’t know this but General Robert E. Lee defended slavery although he was personally against it. I have never found one person to agree with Robert E. Lee’s logic. It usually throws them for a loop. Sometimes they change their ways, sometimes it just plants a seed.

I remember years ago Mother Angelica getting a call from a woman complaining about the issue of Hypocrisy. The woman told Mother Angelica, “I don’t go to Mass because I don’t want to be surrounded by all those hypocrites.” Mother replied, “Don’t worry there is always room for one more.”

You see we are all like Peter. We all betray Jesus, and we all end up needing his forgiveness.

That said, this sort of Hypocrisy is pretty bad. As Doc Holiday said in the movie Tombstone, “My hypocrisy only goes so far.”

 

[sedonaman]

I use the following example with those people. Many people don’t know this but General Robert E. Lee defended slavery although he was personally against it. I have never found one person to agree with Robert E. Lee’s logic. It usually throws them for a loop. Sometimes they change their ways, sometimes it just plants a seed.

Robert E. Lee was a brilliant and honorable soldier, but that doesn’t make him an authority in ethics.

I remember years ago Mother Angelica getting a call from a woman complaining about the issue of Hypocrisy. The woman told Mother Angelica, “I don’t go to Mass because I don’t want to be surrounded by all those hypocrites.” Mother replied, “Don’t worry there is always room for one more.”

…

 

[Cable]

I meet a lot of Catholics who believe in abortion even though they say that they personally would not have one

does this make sense?

It does if they’re trying to fit in socially and go with the flow, yet at the same time appease their own conscience.

 

[CopticChristian]

As others have hinted at, you raise the issue of Church vs. State

If the State makes something legal then are you right to try force non-Catholics to follow your will over the laws of the land?

Actions that are sins will be judged accordingly by God, regardless of what Congress voted.

I think the most you can accuse these Catholics of is not partaking actively in the ‘process’ to change the law.

You may want to glance over and meditate on the letter to the Romans chapter 13.

If the State creates a law making abortion legal I am not bound to abort. I have the right to profess my objection to abortion contrary to the legal declaration and I have the right to engage those that choose to follow the law. No one has the right to force the will of another.

God will judge and after you read Romans 13 I agree.

If as Romans 13 states that there is no higher authority than God and as Paul says we shall not murder then the accusation is that the problem is a matter of a strained conscience and not as you say partaking in changing the law.

Abortion was not made legal by the hands of any group of people for or against but rather by a Supreme Court, stating that there is a right to privacy. The partial birth abortion ban did not declare abortion illegal based on the inability of science to identify when life begins. If you believe that then I do not know what to say. Do yourself a favor and read Supreme Court rulings on abortion in particular the partial birth abortion ban.

 

[GaryTaylor]

It does if they’re trying to fit in socially and go with the flow, yet at the same time appease their own conscience.

There lies the issue. I don’t see this as much as an issue as I did back in the 70’s. The confusion between Church/State was much more blurred then and many were more likely to fall into error then through ignorance.

Today I don’t see this as much of issue, on the contrary Catholics by large are taking a much firmer stance in that after decades of this nonsense its created a monster in our society.

When you think of the number of abortions completed yearly its truly an abomination. The church is spending much more effort in outreach efforts on the frontlines today.

For example in Hartford the CC bought a building directly between the Hart. Hosp and the Abortion Clinic. The result has saved 300 children in a year. Here though I’m not speaking on specifically Catholics but in general.

And really all it comes down to is support and some medical financial help vitamins etc. But more intervention through rational counseling than anything.

Truth is its become so far out of control abortion becomes used as Birth Control?

 

[formerlysure]

I don’t understand the question of whether it is right to force compliance with religious doctrine that is contrary to religious law.

I don’t know who or what is “forcing” compliance. There are many abortions daily, and those who seek them include many Catholic women. Nobody is stopping them if they seek the procedures and there is no force involved. The Church does not like that the state permits abortion and attempts to offer women other options such as adoption, and tries to reach women and society as a whole to teach that the practice is wrong. Further, the Church lobbies to change the law.

What Catholics are trying to do is use their individual and collective voices and lobby for a change in the law to make abortion illegal as a civil justice issue. The argument that the Church forces doctrine down people’s throats or tries to mix state and church is pretty rediculous though. The Church is not trying to overturn democracy, nor undermine eccumenical alliances and efforts in the nation. Rather, they participate in the political process as any other special interest group does in America, and that is as it should be.

The Catholic church is particularly criticized over social justice platforms as if the church and all of its members should just shut up and let others who are more “politically correct” (meaning, tolerating everything - abandoning all discretion in the aim of being open-minded) make all the decisions. This is ludicrous. When I hear this, such as that I should shut up about my view about gay marriage because I’m trying to mix church and state, I want to respond, “stop shoving your atheistic religious view down MY throat…marriage has been defined for all time in a specific way across nearly all countries, religions and cultures and I do not want that definition changed…pick a different word than marriage if you want to create a different institution!”

The original idea of separate church and state was not to hush and hide all people with religious views but rather to create tolerance so that we can all freely express and live those views. Many of us live and die by our faith, and consider it in all we do, so it is a form of persecution in my view when political opponents try to quash viewpoints expressed in the public forum simply becuase those viewpoints are expressed by individuals who represent a particular faith community.

Why is it politically ok for a gay alliance, or an industry, or a union, or a group like the NAACP to lobby aggressively for change in government, but if Catholics do so, we are “shoving our faith down people’s throats”. Give me a break. The only way our government works as it should is if we all may speak.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Right and the argument becomes that its somehow thought we through modern society have evolved into this higher state of mankind and the CC is still antique and behind in the times. A concept we continue to see played out as error especially in regards to family in this day and age

Though it may be true we have advanced in technology this higher form of humanity I’m still waiting to see.

 

[Corki]

It’s not necessarily inconsistent to believe something is immoral without wanting it to be illegal. It depends on what you believe the proper role of government is.

It is, in the case of abortion, if you also claim to be a Catholic.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Well this is way past rational thinking by large. Its now children bearing children, or committing wanton acts of abortion to continue to act out there insiginficant selfish sexual fantasy and also again without Birth Control. By large which leads to the problem of dysfunctional familys in the US who must lead the world in this aspect. Or another trip around the merry go round.

This is so far out of control its off the charts. Planned Parenthood has become equal to McDonalds for childrens “other” hangout. Insanity at its best.

Sleepwalking is what its is and directly off the cliff.

Personally the first issue in State that I believe need be address it no different then the drinking age. Its should simply be ILLEGAL for abortion under 21 yo. Second the Birth Control thinking which Planned Parenthood promotes in ignorance should be severely addressed in court.

I’d be willing to bet the number of repeats in Planned Parenthood is astounding. These are not one time mistakes in lack of judgement. This is “Oh well I’ll just head to Planned Parenthood AGAIN”.

Aside form religion how is this correct Moral thinking? Its childish behavior is what it is, with and attempt to cover a bad choice with another.

To sit here and suggest that abortion statistics consist of rational adults or those with a medical issues probly falls into what MAYBE 5%?

 

[sedonaman]

…No one has the right to force the will of another.
…

But does anyone have the authority to force the will of another?

 

[sedonaman]

…
Why is it [politically ok for a gay alliance, or an industry, or a union, or a group like the NAACP to lobby aggressively for change in government, but if Catholics do so, we are “shoving our faith down people’s throats”.[?] …

I have asked this question a number of times on other threads and have yet to get an answer from anyone claiming to be for “separation of church and state” … or anyone, for that matter.

 

[Tomara]

This is the way Mother Theresa looked at things.

She was asked why she doesn’t work for social justice or advocate for government programs. She replied that she didn’t have time for that, that it was wonderful work, but that she had people dying in the streets and really didn’t have time to just leave them there to die alone while she ran off to lobby government officials for funding.

-Tim-

 

[followingtheway]

I meet a lot of Catholics who believe in abortion even though they say that they personally would not have one

does this make sense?

No, those are Pro-Choicers and Far-Lest Liberal Catholics. They have that in every religion and not it doesn’t make sense to me either. :nope:

God bless :byzsoc:

David

 

[CopticChristian]

But does anyone have the authority to force the will of another?

Yes they do and a perfect example would be modern day courts that send unsuspecting individuals to AA after a DUI. Those that are sent do not know that they can protest that they can protest as it violates the establishment clause of the US constitution. The 7 & 9 Federal Circuit courts and others have ruled that AA is a religion and no one can be forced against their will to participate in AA due its religious nature. This however does not stop those in power. This is documented in 12 step horror stories and Avoiding 12 step coercion by Stanton Peele, Phd.