Catholic Idolatry In Mexico

[carlos19]

Hi everyone, I am writing about something that I find concerting.

First, I am Catholic and I believe in everything that the Church teaches. I also understand the use of Images/Icons for the assistance of prayer. I use them myself.

However, as a Mexican American, I have encountered that a large percentage of my fellow Mexican Catholics (when I visit Mexico) believe in something that I would call idolatry.

While I am not even prepared to say it is over 50% of people that believe this, the percentage is significant especially when in the rural areas.

Here is what I have seen, People often place faith and/or power in a Statue or image.

For example, I have been told. Go visit, the image of the Virgin in a particular town/city, because that particular image is miraculous. One specific example is praying to El Christo negro in a church outside of Mexico City because praying to that image has resulted in miracles.

Or place the picture of this saint in your wallet, it will assure that you always have money.

Idolatry from what I gather is placing divine power in an image is it not?

Now, I know this is not what the Holy Church teaches…but I am baffled as to why priests or even Bishops allow it…

For any of my fellow Mexicans or latin Americans…have you observed this?? Have you seen any efforts from Bishops to stop this?

Again I am not saying it is a majority of people that believe in this or that the Church teaches this but for some reason it does not appear to be challenged, at least from what I observed.

 

[JerryZ]

The only way to stop this kind of behaviour is with education (as in general education) and catechesis (proper teachings of catholic beliefs and practices).

Are we starting an apostolate?

 

[R_C]

Idolatry is to consider that the power is in the image.

Catholics know that the power is from God, flowing through the image, be it an icon of Christ, of the Blessed Virgin, or of His saints.

Let me ask you something: was David dancing before the Ark of the Covenant committing an act of idolatry? Were the Jewish priests building an enormous temple and making sacrifices before the Ark of the Covenant committing idolatry?

Read these stories below. Were these men committing idolatry?

[he] made a bronze snake and put it up on a pole. Then when anyone was bitten by a snake and looked at the bronze snake, they lived.

[he] sent a messenger to say to him, “Go, wash yourself seven times in the Jordan, and your flesh will be restored and you will be cleansed.”

He spit on the ground, made mud with the saliva, and spread the mud over the blind man’s eyes. “Go,” he told him, “wash in the Pool of Siloam”.

 

[7armyrugrats]

My husband grew up in a very rural part of northern Veracruz, close to Tampico. He has expressed this concern to me many times himself. Growing up he said that there were many people who never went to Mass except for a particular saint’s feast day. To him it seemed that they were worshiping a saint rather than God. He has visited shrines, and so have I, and on our trips I too have noticed some of this behavior. There is also a very large group of people that combines witch craft and indigenous religious practices with Catholicism. I know that there is a lack of Catechism classes in Mexico. Catholicism is cultural for many people in Mexico but they do not know what the Church teaches. They WANT to follow the Church and many do to the best of their knowledge. How can we fault them for not knowing and having no one to seek answers from? For years the Mexican government attempted to kill the Church and ban the practice of Catholicism in Mexico. In many ways they succeeded. They now have generations of uncatechized families, many of whom are now leaving for other religions of falsely following our own or having no faith at all. Thankfully my husband’s father is well catechized and taught his children. My mother in law knows very very little about the Church but has a deep faith. I have known her to be highly superstitious and cling to what I see as pagan beliefs as well, but I think it goes along with a lack of ANY education at all. She can not read, so studying the Bible, Catechism, lives of saints, etc. is out. As for why priests and bishops say and do nothing about the practice, well they are stretched very thin, at least in rural areas. The priest in my husband’s town covers 15 different towns–on his own. He has tried to teach but it is nearly impossible in those circumstances. some towns only have Mass once a month, some it is said during the week, others have it once on either Sunday or Saturday. The Bishop doesn’t even visit most of the churches in his diocese ever. It is a sad situation, and I fear we are headed that way here in the US.

 

[stewstew03]

Idolatry is to consider that the power is in the image.

Catholics know that the power is from God, flowing through the image, be it an icon of Christ, of the Blessed Virgin, or of His saints.

Let me ask you something: was David dancing before the Ark of the Covenant committing an act of idolatry? Were the Jewish priests building an enormous temple and making sacrifices before the Ark of the Covenant committing idolatry?

Read these stories below. Were these men committing idolatry?

Still - I think this is a valid concern. And the OP did provide at least one example of idolatry (e.g., image of saint in wallet = always money in wallet).

 

[regression]

Still - I think this is a valid concern. And the OP did provide at least one example of idolatry (e.g., image of saint in wallet = always money in wallet).

I agree. And it happens here in the US also. Once I as waiting in line for confession and a lady handed me and the other people in line a card. It had a laminated rose petal in it. It came from somewhere in NY where supposedly the Blessed Virgin appeared to someone. Then, she said very slowly and seriously, “keep this card with you at all times, it is very powerful”. Obviously this card had no power, but she was convinced it did. That was an unsettling situation to be in.

 

[Ad_Orientem]

This is my theory. Cultures which were once pagan tend to believe more easily in the supernatural, thus when members of that culture are poorly catechized as Christians, they retain a belief in the supernatural; it is just misguided. Here in North America, the ancient pagan cultures have been supplanted by a culture which is more informed by rationalism; so that poorly catechized Christians here tend more toward skepticism or emotionalism.

On the other hand, there is plenty of superstition to go around. I think of some of the more flamboyant television preachers, and certain Christians who use prayer and Scripture verses in a magical sort of way (often with vain repetitions).

That said, there are indeed miraculous icons, etc., because God takes pleasure in honoring his chosen ones. That fallen human beings sometimes treat these extraordinary things in a flawed way is understandable.

 

[Michael_Allen]

Hi Carlos,

I think what matters is what is in the heart. Certainly the veneration of statues in Latin America can seem rather odd to my English eyes, as we are generally far more reserved. but I am wary of judging across cultural divides. The Catholic Church encompasses very many cultures and sometimes it is all to easy to judge one by the norms of an another.

 

[franc1sc0]

Hi everyone, I am writing about something that I find concerting.

First, I am Catholic and I believe in everything that the Church teaches. I also understand the use of Images/Icons for the assistance of prayer. I use them myself.

However, as a Mexican American, I have encountered that a large percentage of my fellow Mexican Catholics (when I visit Mexico) believe in something that I would call idolatry.

While I am not even prepared to say it is over 50% of people that believe this, the percentage is significant especially when in the rural areas.

Here is what I have seen, People often place faith and/or power in a Statue or image.

For example, I have been told. Go visit, the image of the Virgin in a particular town/city, because that particular image is miraculous. One specific example is praying to El Christo negro in a church outside of Mexico City because praying to that image has resulted in miracles.

Or place the picture of this saint in your wallet, it will assure that you always have money.

Idolatry from what I gather is placing divine power in an image is it not?

Now, I know this is not what the Holy Church teaches…but I am baffled as to why priests or even Bishops allow it…

For any of my fellow Mexicans or latin Americans…have you observed this?? Have you seen any efforts from Bishops to stop this?

Again I am not saying it is a majority of people that believe in this or that the Church teaches this but for some reason it does not appear to be challenged, at least from what I observed.

I see this all the time in Deep South Texas and in Mexico

 

[engdlyzp]

I think it depends on the eyes of the person. My Grandma was one of the people that usually bought little booklets and gave them to her sons and nephews and she told us to keep them with us at all times to keep us safe. I really don’t know what my grandma thought about that piece of paper, but I know her life was dedicated to a piece of paper nor did she pray or worship to the piece of paper.

Those little pieces of paper she gave us always had a prayer on the back, a prayer which was obviously meant for God. So while she did say it would protect us, I doubt she meant the paper would protect us, but what the paper “stood” for.

That’s just some people though, there maybe are some people that do actually worship the piece of paper or saints. I doubt they do it on purpose though, that is just how they were thought.

 

[7armyrugrats]

I think it depends on the eyes of the person. My Grandma was one of the people that usually bought little booklets and gave them to her sons and nephews and she told us to keep them with us at all times to keep us safe. I really don’t know what my grandma thought about that piece of paper, but I know her life was dedicated to a piece of paper nor did she pray or worship to the piece of paper.

Those little pieces of paper she gave us always had a prayer on the back, a prayer which was obviously meant for God. So while she did say it would protect us, I doubt she meant the paper would protect us, but what the paper “stood” for.

That’s just some people though, there maybe are some people that do actually worship the piece of paper or saints. I doubt they do it on purpose though, that is just how they were thought.

Exactly–some times it is misconstrued. Other times it is a lack of knowledge. we can not fault anyone who knows no better. Many times they are more faithful than the rest of us. They trust more than we do.

 

[eonporter]

It is not Idolatry.

Idols represented false Gods. Adoring an Idol was a sin because you were adoring a false god. When people relate powers with objects, they are not adoring a false god unless the object is associated with a false god. Simple as that.

All the examples given in this topic show that people associated objects with God, Christ or both. What difference does it make if they relate God’s power with a statue or holy water? They know it is the power of God that flows through them anyway.

When Jesus cured the blind man, did the power come from the mud of from God? It doesn’t matter the vehicle that God uses to reach us, what matters is that we know where the real power came from. And I think every catholic knows that very well!

 

[carlos19]

power is thought to be in certain images…if I need a miracle…go to this church and pray to that virgin there and you miracle will be granted. not pray to the virgin but pray to that image of the virgin in that particular church.

poor catechism has to be the answer. I think those of us that are Mexican should lovingly and gently show what the church really teaches when circumstances call for it.

…
my only confusion is to why don’t bishops teach more and correct this…they must know its happening

 

[eonporter]

The power might in fact be in an image, but where did it came from?

When a child is baptized, do you doubt that there is power in the water? When a sick man gets annointed with oil, do you doubt that the oil itself carries some power?

Objects are infused with powers indeed, and that is not by any means idolatry, as long you are aware that the source of this power is God. If you think that using an object to access God given power equals idolatry, you are simply mistaken. It is all over the bible and all over the history of the Church.

You are probably under influence of protestant paranoya regarding idolatry, You should talk to a priest for the sake of your piece of mind.

 

[7armyrugrats]

power is thought to be in certain images…if I need a miracle…go to this church and pray to that virgin there and you miracle will be granted. not pray to the virgin but pray to that image of the virgin in that particular church.

poor catechism has to be the answer. I think those of us that are Mexican should lovingly and gently show what the church really teaches when circumstances call for it.

…
my only confusion is to why don’t bishops teach more and correct this…they must know its happening

I can’t speak for the bishops, but I think mainly the reason is that they are limited in time, money, and resources. I’ve never spent time in the cities in Mexico, but I have in several pueblos. Where ny in laws live, there are only 7 TV’s in the town, 3 telephones, no Internet access or computers at all, no running water or sewer system, electricity is hit ir miss–some days ut works others it doesn’t, no paved roads and no church bulletins. Even if there was a church bulletin, many people are illiterate. Most of the news is broadcast from a loud speaker from a truck that us driven around the town. When one priest has to cover 15 towns, it is hard for the bishops to spread messages through the priests. And the areas the bishops cover are large and remote.

We as Catholics should send in missionaries the way Protestants are doing. Vast numbers of rural Mexicans are leaving the Church when the protestant missionaries visit their towns. And the charge of idolatry is what the protestant missionaries use to convince them that the Catholic Church is evil.

 

[stewstew03]

We as Catholics should send in missionaries the way Protestants are doing. Vast numbers of rural Mexicans are leaving the Church when the protestant missionaries visit their towns. And the charge of idolatry is what the protestant missionaries use to convince them that the Catholic Church is evil.

Agree with this…

 

[Goya]

power is thought to be in certain images…if I need a miracle…go to this church and pray to that virgin there and you miracle will be granted. not pray to the virgin but pray to that image of the virgin in that particular church.

poor catechism has to be the answer. I think those of us that are Mexican should lovingly and gently show what the church really teaches when circumstances call for it.

…
my only confusion is to why don’t bishops teach more and correct this…they must know its happening

Carlos:

I had the honor of serving as a missionery to mexico in the late 80’s through early 90s (86-93). I was humbled by the faith of many of the people I served, and the mexican people in general.

E.g.–visiting the basicilica of Guadalupe, and seeing believers walking some 300 yards accross the plaza, up to the altar, on their knees… In fact, so inspired, I did it myself once (and was duly rewarded with a verifiable miracle…)–and can testify that…it hurts like heck!

However, we mostly served rurual communities out in the sticks (more like jungles, actually). Not only did the bishop never visit those churches–the parish priest to which they pertained, would be lucky to get out there once a month–sometimes it would be more like 3-4 times a years–the priests were just that undermanned, and overwhelemed–that’s why we were called in.

Anyway, I’m not so sure that what you describe, really amounts to idolotry, in most cases.

e.g.–image of a saint in wallet yields money; there’s no act of worship directed at the image, or even the Saint. Hence it may be a silly superstition, but not necessarily idolotry.

As for the statues–I don’t see that as being any different that going to a place which contains any other significant relic, icon, or the like. Tradition has always maintained the propriety of venerating such, and in praying and worshipping where they are kept.

E.g.–All altars are supposed to have a saint’s relic in them–in fact, most do (though some do not).

Then, there is the word “basilica”–this designates a church with a significant/important relic or icon. Hence St. Peter’s Basilica is so namd, because it contains the remains (relics) of St. Peter. Or Basilica of Guadalupe–so designated, because it contains the actual ‘Tilma’ Our Lady of Guadalupe gave to San (St) Juan Diego, to give to the Bishop.

We go to these places seeking special graces and attention, because we beleive that they are places that are special to God. Doesn’t mean we’re worshipping the relics, or the icons, or the places–we are worshipping God, in/at these places.

Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum.

 

[Goya]

The power might in fact be in an image, but where did it came from?

When a child is baptized, do you doubt that there is power in the water? When a sick man gets annointed with oil, do you doubt that the oil itself carries some power?

Objects are infused with powers indeed, and that is not by any means idolatry, as long you are aware that the source of this power is God. If you think that using an object to access God given power equals idolatry, you are simply mistaken. It is all over the bible and all over the history of the Church.

You are probably under influence of protestant paranoya regarding idolatry, You should talk to a priest for the sake of your piece of mind.

I believe this may be correct. Seems there’s a lot of this, even on this very forum. Good Catholics feeling ashamed or inferior about this or that…and then promplty regurgitating canned protestant apologetics, for why they feel as they do.

E.g.–Why don’t Catholics know their bibles as well as protestants?

–Why do Cahtolics ‘worship’ mary?

–Why do Catholics think we can work our way into heaven?

–Why don’t Catholics have a relationship with Christ?

Here’s my question–why are so many Catholics so quick to aplogize for their Catholicism, and so slow to engage in apologetics FOR the Church???

NB: We have the Truth. Don’t be swayed by Satan’s multifacted deception.

*Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum. *

 

[regression]

Anyway, I’m not so sure that what you describe, really amounts to idolotry, in most cases.

e.g.–image of a saint in wallet yields money; there’s no act of worship directed at the saint. hence it may be a silly superstition, but not necessarily idolotry.

I don’t want to read too much into what you stated, “silly superstition”, but I hope you are not downplaying superstition. Here is what the Catechism says about it:

III. “You Shall Have No Other Gods Before Me”

2110 The first commandment forbids honoring gods other than the one Lord who has revealed himself to his people. It proscribes superstition and irreligion. Superstition in some sense represents a perverse excess of religion; irreligion is the vice contrary by defect to the virtue of religion.
Superstition
2111 Superstition is the deviation of religious feeling and of the practices this feeling imposes. It can even affect the worship we offer the true God, e.g., when one attributes an importance in some way magical to certain practices otherwise lawful or necessary. To attribute the efficacy of prayers or of sacramental signs to their mere external performance, apart from the interior dispositions that they demand, is to fall into superstition.41

Like others have said, one really has to know what is in the person’s heart to know if it is superstition or idolatry. In the example I mentioned earlier, it certainly seemed like superstition when I was handed a card and told that it is very powerful.

 

[Fragile]

This is exactly what I was talking about in another thread, concerning the behavior of some in other places of the world, and I was called out for “racism!” :banghead: