Catholic In-Law Problems

[Seatuck]

Just curious but it sounds like he was not a practicing Catholic when they married. So why would it be her responsibility to “encourage him” to return to his practice, when they are probably attending a church together as a family at this point? If he is to return and feels a need to return to the Catholic church it should be because he wants and needs that, not because it is on her shoulders to do it.

Part of the way Catholics understand marriage is that is the purpose of each spouse to help the other get into heaven. Worshipping God and practicing your faith or returning to it would be the best way for this man to do this.

 

[kage_ar]

Just curious but it sounds like he was not a practicing Catholic when they married. So why would it be her responsibility to “encourage him” to return to his practice, when they are probably attending a church together as a family at this point? If he is to return and feels a need to return to the Catholic church it should be because he wants and needs that, not because it is on her shoulders to do it.

Because he was Catholic when they were married, practicing or not. Once catholic, always Catholic.

 

[whatevergirl]

liz–did your husband’s parents show any signs of dismay that you were not Catholic, prior to marrying? Five years of dating/engagement is a long time to just stay silent if this was a problem for them. I guess I’m left wondering why they waited so long to speak up about the importance of the faith?

 

[mommamia]

"1ke:

There are two separate issues here. First, his parents certainly are going to be upset that their child has left the practice of his faith and is in an invalid marriage. A Catholic must marry in the Catholic Church or receive a dispensation to marry outside the Catholic form. I presume your non-practicing husband did not follow the Church’s requirement for marriage

Because he was Catholic when they were married, practicing or not. Once catholic, always Catholic.

I never understood this line of reasoning. No one has a right to label me as something I am not. If I was born in France, to French parents, but moved to America at adult hood, choose to stay here, marry an American and gain full citizenship, I am not French anymore, but American. Just because I was French by birth and family circumstances, doesn’t mean as an adult I can’t choose to be whatever I want.

So just because one was baptized (perhaps as an infant with no choice on their part), one can never choose to leave? I wonder also, what do you mean by “in an invalid marriage”?
Are you saying they are no better than those who choose to live together without any marriage? Are you saying they are living in a state of fornication?

My in-laws are none to happy about the fact that dh and I married in the Catholic Church, after all he was raised and baptized Baptist, is it all right if they just consider our marriage invalid? Or what about his brother and his wife, who were both raised, baptized and married in the Baptist church, but who converted to the Catholic Church last year? Are they still Baptist, or are they Catholic?

I just don’t understand anymore.

 

[masuwerte]

My husband was more than happy to convert and marry in our church.

You say he has converted…has he left the Catholic Church by a formal act? They have a process for that, and if he hasn’t done so, maybe his parents still consider him Catholic.

BTW, I’m an Episcopalian married to a Catholic woman.

 

[masuwerte]

Once catholic, always Catholic.

If this is true, why is there a formal process in place for defection? Catholicism is not Islam.

 

[kage_ar]

I never understood this line of reasoning. No one has a right to label me as something I am not. If I was born in France, to French parents, but moved to America at adult hood, choose to stay here, marry an American and gain full citizenship, I am not French anymore, but American. Just because I was French by birth and family circumstances, doesn’t mean as an adult I can’t choose to be whatever I want.

I marked the key part in red. If you just stood up and announce “I am not French” that does not remove your citizenship. One has to go through a leagal process to renounce citizenship. There is a legal process for leaving the binding Canon law of the Catholic Church. It is called “Actus formalis defectionis ab Ecclesia catholica”. You can read about it here vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/intrptxt/documents/rc_pc_intrptxt_doc_20060313_actus-formalis_en.html

I wonder also, what do you mean by “in an invalid marriage”?
Are you saying they are no better than those who choose to live together without any marriage? Are you saying they are living in a state of fornication? .

Catholics are bound to marry according to Canon Law. If they do not, that marriage is not valid, and yes, the couple would be fornicating each time they had relations.

My in-laws are none to happy about the fact that dh and I married in the Catholic Church, after all he was raised and baptized Baptist, is it all right if they just consider our marriage invalid? Or what about his brother and his wife, who were both raised, baptized and married in the Baptist church, but who converted to the Catholic Church last year? Are they still Baptist, or are they Catholic?

I just don’t understand anymore.

The Catholic Church is not just “another denomination” like the Baptist and Episcopalians and Lutherans and Assembly of God and non-denoms. The Catholic Church is the Church founded by Christ Jesus. All those who are baptized Christian but are outside the Catholic Church are joined in an imperfect way to the Catholic Church.

Some reading about the Church from the Catechism may help, the section on the Church begins at 1267 scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s2c1a1.htm#1267:

**1271 **Baptism constitutes the foundation of communion among all Christians, including those who are not yet in full communion with the Catholic Church: “For men who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in some, though imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church. Justified by faith in Baptism, [they] are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church.” “Baptism therefore constitutes the sacramental bond of unity existing among all who through it are reborn.”

 

[kage_ar]

If this is true, why is there a formal process in place for defection? Catholicism is not Islam.

Even after defection, there is a mark on the soul that was made at Baptism.

 

[masuwerte]

Thank you for your reply, Kage_ar. So from the Catholic perspective, is the person who left Catholicism by a formal act considered joined to Catholicism in the same way as one who is validly baptised in another ecclesial (sp?) community?

 

[mommamia]

Honestly I find your entire post kind of scary.

I was baptized through no choice or knowledge of my own. I was raised by practicing Catholics, sent to Catholic schools and faithfully attended Mass my whole life.

Now, I decided that I really didn’t know enough about my faith, so decided after spending time on this board that I should learn more.

Sadly, the more I learn, the less I want to be Catholic. And hearing all the judgment and absolutes on this board makes me want to be Catholic even less.

Whats the point of being able to officially leave the Church, if you are still considered Catholic?

If I don’t believe half of what the Church says, then it doesn’t matter what you or anyone else thinks, I am not Catholic. No one can label me and decide what I am or am not, that is up to me. In fact it is a gift from God himself. Not even the Church has the ability to take from me what God has given.

 

[rolltidefan]

Mommaia…welcome to the boards. You have figured it out also just as I have. I came her because I married a Catholic to find out more, mostly about what they believe in terms of God and how the church worships. What I found was judgement. Of course they are going to say, no we are not judging because we never said you were going to hell or judging your soul. Well, there are other ways of judging other than coming flat out and saying such. I have found my marriage to be in complete judgement of this place and of course not valid and apparently by their standards living in sin. I have found that just because my husband was born Catholic but has not attended since 2007, apparently that makes him still Catholic just because his parents had him baptized as that and of course had no choice or voice at that age, but even as an adult still cannot unless he goes through some “form”, which honestly that is about all I have found out on here, is that there are forms to fill out for everything. There are so many things that I have come to find here that it turns me off to the prospect of even thinking about converting. Now, I know there are some here that are not this judgemental and have a little better way of stating what they believe with love and respect. So you are right sadly this is about all I have learned here. I have also learned that apparently it is not up to my husband to make his own choice to come back to the church but that I should apparently beg him or it is on my shoulders to drag him back to a church that I don’t attend and have never attended just because we are married and that is what I should do. Even though we do attend a Christian church as a family, but breaking that up would be better because he cannot be a Christian in any other church besides the Catholic church since that was a choice made for him at birth. So in other words, if you were born and baptized Catholic and decide to go to another Chrisitian church, you are headed to hell. Of course the ones of us that were not born and baptized Catholic, we are all right because we are just too ignorant to know better. God have mercy on the Catholics who have strayed and decided to go to another Christian church. If I sound angry here, it is because I am. I am so tired of this judgemental mess. Thank you God for my church and the decision that I make as an adult.

 

[Sillara]

Perhaps there is a bit of confusion here.

It is true that Baptism (and Confirmation) leave indelible marks on the soul. These marks are not washed out by becoming a member of another religion. However, if one defects by formal act from the Catholic Church, one is no longer bound by canon law. This does not make sinful acts (such as using artificial birth control) not sinful, but it does mean one is no longer required to marry in the Church, attend Mass on Sundays, fast on Lenten Fridays, etc.

 

[rayne89]

The number of children you have or your birth control methods are none of your husband’s parents business. There are many Catholics on this board who endured the same kind of behavior with in-laws or parents criticizing their choice not to use birth control or to have large families. Most posters on this forum are highly offended at such intrusiveness into marriage and family life.

Artificial birth control is against church teaching, if your husband was raised by devout parents then he knows that. He is an adult now and he makes his own choices. He should inform them that any and all discussion about birth control methods or family size is off the table for discussion period. If it is brought the conversation ends immediately either by ending the telephone call or leaving the premises.

While I disagree with the choice you both are making, and sympathize with the parents, they are simply out of line to continue to ask questions that are none of their business. There is a point as parents once we’ve had our say with adult children we must leave the rest to God. God gave all of his children free will.

 

[ChristinaM]

Mommaia…welcome to the boards. You have figured it out also just as I have. I came her because I married a Catholic to find out more, mostly about what they believe in terms of God and how the church worships. What I found was judgement. Of course they are going to say, no we are not judging because we never said you were going to hell or judging your soul. Well, there are other ways of judging other than coming flat out and saying such. I have found my marriage to be in complete judgement of this place and of course not valid and apparently by their standards living in sin. I have found that just because my husband was born Catholic but has not attended since 2007, apparently that makes him still Catholic just because his parents had him baptized as that and of course had no choice or voice at that age, but even as an adult still cannot unless he goes through some “form”, which honestly that is about all I have found out on here, is that there are forms to fill out for everything. There are so many things that I have come to find here that it turns me off to the prospect of even thinking about converting. Now, I know there are some here that are not this judgemental and have a little better way of stating what they believe with love and respect. So you are right sadly this is about all I have learned here. I have also learned that apparently it is not up to my husband to make his own choice to come back to the church but that I should apparently beg him or it is on my shoulders to drag him back to a church that I don’t attend and have never attended just because we are married and that is what I should do. Even though we do attend a Christian church as a family, but breaking that up would be better because he cannot be a Christian in any other church besides the Catholic church since that was a choice made for him at birth. So in other words, if you were born and baptized Catholic and decide to go to another Chrisitian church, you are headed to hell. Of course the ones of us that were not born and baptized Catholic, we are all right because we are just too ignorant to know better. God have mercy on the Catholics who have strayed and decided to go to another Christian church. If I sound angry here, it is because I am. I am so tired of this judgemental mess. Thank you God for my church and the decision that I make as an adult.

Do you ever post on a thread to do anything but complain about how you are ill treated by Catholics on this forum? Really, this is getting old.

 

[1ke]

Perhaps there is a bit of confusion here.

It is true that Baptism (and Confirmation) leave indelible marks on the soul. These marks are not washed out by becoming a member of another religion. However, if one defects by formal act from the Catholic Church, one is no longer bound by canon law. This does not make sinful acts (such as using artificial birth control) not sinful, but it does mean one is no longer required to marry in the Church, attend Mass on Sundays, fast on Lenten Fridays, etc.

No, this isn’t the case.

A formal act of defection **only **impacts **certain **canons on marriage in the Church. Quoted from Deacon Cameron (canon lawyer who posts on this forum) on another post:

"Canon 11 would continue to apply: Merely ecclesiastical laws bind those who have been baptized in the Catholic Church or received into it, possess the sufficient use of reason and, unless the law expressly provides otherwise, have completed seven years of age.

The law excepts the formally defected Catholic only from three things: the requirement of the form of marriage which is imposed for validity (c. 1117), the requirement for permission for licit mixed marriage to a baptized non Catholic (c. 1124), and the invalidating impediment of disparity of cult (c. 1086 §1).

But it does not exempt them from the rest of the law. Those who have formally defected according to the terms in the PCILT declaration remain subject to other matrimonial law of the Church. Consequently the impediments of ecclesiastical law would continue to apply even if a formally defected Catholic wed in another faith tradition. For example, even if the civil state would permit a first cousin marriage, canon 1091, § 2 would still render such a marriage invalid unless dispensed (consanguinity in the 4th degree of the collateral line)."

You can see the entire thread here.

 

[1ke]

So just because one was baptized (perhaps as an infant with no choice on their part), one can never choose to leave?

One can certainly choose to leave. That does not change the fact that one is still ontologically Catholic.

I wonder also, what do you mean by “in an invalid marriage”?

Invalid = not valid due to a defect in consent, intent, form, or a divine or ecclesial law impediment.

Are you saying they are no better than those who choose to live together without any marriage? Are you saying they are living in a state of fornication?

Yes, exactly.

My in-laws are none to happy about the fact that dh and I married in the Catholic Church, after all he was raised and baptized Baptist, is it all right if they just consider our marriage invalid?

It doesn’t matter what they consider it, it matters only what it is– a valid marriage. Only the Catholic Church has the authority of Christ with regard to the Sacraments.

The Baptist church has no concept of a Sacrament. They have no requirements regarding the form of marriage. If they did (such as the Orthodox) the Catholic Church would recognize those requirements. Baptists consider anyone married civilly to be married. They have no concept of invalid marriage, so therefore they have no concept of valid marriage.

Or what about his brother and his wife, who were both raised, baptized and married in the Baptist church, but who converted to the Catholic Church last year? Are they still Baptist, or are they Catholic?

They were already Catholic by virtue of their baptism. They are now merely in full communion with the Church, whereas before they were lacking the Sacraments of Eucharist and Confirmation and formal membership which also makes Canon Law binding on them.

I just don’t understand anymore.

You are a Catholic, correct? I’m not sure what you don’t understand.

 

[GraceDK]

Because he was Catholic when they were married, practicing or not. Once catholic, always Catholic.

I disagree with this.
It’s an absolutely absurd statement and only makes concepts void of any meaning.
Why call your self Catholic if everyone is Catholic… its the same when people who
don’t believe Jesus is the Son of God call themselves Christians out of some tradition.
Sorry, but it harms the Gospel. Those who look at a Western world steeped in decadence
who calls it self Christian will think Christianity is the same as secular humanism… its devastating. And its unbiblical…
Paul says somewhere To believe and be baptised. In any useful sense of the word “Catholic”, this should really be a minimum.

 

[1ke]

I disagree with this.
It’s an absolutely absurd statement and only makes concepts void of any meaning.
Why call your self Catholic if everyone is Catholic… its the same when people who
don’t believe Jesus is the Son of God call themselves Christians out of some tradition.
Sorry, but it harms the Gospel. Those who look at a Western world steeped in decadence
who calls it self Christian will think Christianity is the same as secular humanism… its devastating. And its unbiblical…
Paul says somewhere To believe and be baptised. In any useful sense of the word “Catholic”, this should really be a minimum.

Grace, it is the Truth. It is not “ridiculous.” The Church teaches that baptism is an indelible mark, one is ontologically Catholic whether one practices their faith or not.

See also my post above regarding Canon 11 and the formal act by which one may be exempted from certain marriage requirements.

The Church teaches and verifies through the code of canon law that one is Catholic by virtue of their Catholic baptism and remain so their entire life.

Do you doubt the authority of the Church in this matter? I’m not sure why this is such a big deal that has spun up over this.

It does not void it of meaning. Just the opposite, it’s quite serious and should be taken seriously.

 

[mommamia]

You are a Catholic, correct? I’m not sure what you don’t understand.

I don’t understand any of it. I don’t understand putting rituals and traditions above being a good, loving person who truly wishes to emulate the spirit of Christ in their lives. I don’t understand the selfishness of claiming that only Catholics have any real connection to the Creator. I don’t understand blind obedience to a man just because he happens to be the pope. I don’t understand the constant judging, and accusations of being a “sinner” to others when the fact is we are all sinners. I don’t understand why the teachings of Paul have seemed to overshadow the teachings of Jesus. I don’t understand why we are told to cling blindly to the “laws” of the Church, when Jesus very clearly denounces those who do the same in the Bible, follow the Jewish laws to the letter, but without love. I don’t understand how or why you or any other Catholic feels the righteousness to judge others as not being good Christians, or as being in a state of sin, when you yourself are in just as much a state of sin.

And I really don’t understand where you all feel justified in saying that you are not judging others, when it is clear that you are.

Yes, individually Catholics are some of the kindest, most loving folks I know, but as a group, I am beginning to feel that somehow we are the exact same institution and people that Jesus came to preach against.

 

[GraceDK]

Mommaia…welcome to the boards. You have figured it out also just as I have. I came her because I married a Catholic to find out more, mostly about what they believe in terms of God and how the church worships. What I found was judgement. Of course they are going to say, no we are not judging because we never said you were going to hell or judging your soul. Well, there are other ways of judging other than coming flat out and saying such. I have found my marriage to be in complete judgement of this place and of course not valid and apparently by their standards living in sin. I have found that just because my husband was born Catholic but has not attended since 2007, apparently that makes him still Catholic just because his parents had him baptized as that and of course had no choice or voice at that age, but even as an adult still cannot unless he goes through some “form”, which honestly that is about all I have found out on here, is that there are forms to fill out for everything. There are so many things that I have come to find here that it turns me off to the prospect of even thinking about converting. Now, I know there are some here that are not this judgemental and have a little better way of stating what they believe with love and respect. So you are right sadly this is about all I have learned here. I have also learned that apparently it is not up to my husband to make his own choice to come back to the church but that I should apparently beg him or it is on my shoulders to drag him back to a church that I don’t attend and have never attended just because we are married and that is what I should do. Even though we do attend a Christian church as a family, but breaking that up would be better because he cannot be a Christian in any other church besides the Catholic church since that was a choice made for him at birth. So in other words, if you were born and baptized Catholic and decide to go to another Chrisitian church, you are headed to hell. Of course the ones of us that were not born and baptized Catholic, we are all right because we are just too ignorant to know better. God have mercy on the Catholics who have strayed and decided to go to another Christian church. If I sound angry here, it is because I am. I am so tired of this judgemental mess. Thank you God for my church and the decision that I make as an adult.

Hey sister…
When I started reading this post I thought… way to go sista… tell us like it is, we should be critizised for a great many things and change a lot as the sinners we are… but in the end you really sound just as judging as those you talk about… and you really make me sad on a an already grey day.

I see you points about the forms… but I think you turn into a not-understanding person your self. This is how I see it… we as Catholics have a Church that acknowleges both Scripture, Tradition and Church. You as protestants have a “minimalist” authority… the Bible alone and your own personal interpretation of it. We have something to loose and you dont as much. We are called bad whenever pointing out our religion and the rules that apply to those who practice it… and sorry, but I am so sick and tired of that, okay. You don’t have to become a part of the Catholic Church, just like I have chosen freely to become a Catholic after having been raised Evangelical, so please respect also my choice and all my reasons for saying this is where I perceive the will of Christ for me.

That being said this is my principle, that if any Catholic is, for some reason, not being fed spiritually adequately in his church, then he have rather go to an Orthodox church or an Evangelical church or whereever his well studied conscience leads him. Better a burning Evangelical than a dry Catholic… thats just how it is, okay, we are not put here to beat each other in the head about who is what kind of Christian but to get the lost ones of the world into the one fold, the fold of Jesus Christ. He is our Peace.

I dont believe in a set of rules or a church or a book, I believe in a Person. And I am where I am because I have felt HIM calling me here.
It’s not easy to be Catholic today, so please have also patience with us if we seem stressed… we are constantly critizised for holding on to absolutes in a world that embraces relativism. We don’t need the harshness from other believers.

I love my Evangelical brethren and I would never dream of condemning anyone of them - unlike the clear condemnation I have received from some of them merely for being Catholic - but I hope we could work together in this wild vineyard instead of this constant nagging. Try going to other Christian fora and see how they fare… I would eg. recommend speroforum.com where I had some rather interesting experiences about how Catholics and Evangelicals argue and reason… Saw some really bad cases of rhetorics from Evangelicals there but that doesn’t mean I dont assess their points and test them on the Gospels.

You might have received some unbendable words here, and they could have been wrapped in nicely, but how about just excusing your brothers and sisters and say: okay, this was rather direct, but they mean no harm by it?

Sorry, I really have a hard time these days because I constantly have to hear about how condemning the Catholic Church is from this secular culture that i live in, where everyone wants most possible pleasure at the lowest price and in ignorance they condenm all religion that might interfere with that ultimate pleasure on this side of eternity, not realising they do so at the expense of the dignity of the human person.

Shalom and Peace.

Grace :snowing: