Catholic In-Law Problems

[kage_ar]

What I found was judgement. Of course they are going to say, no we are not judging because we never said you were going to hell or judging your soul. Well, there are other ways of judging other than coming flat out and saying such. I have found my marriage to be in complete judgement of this place and of course not valid and apparently by their standards living in sin…

No one intends to cause you to feel “judged”.

Before I was Catholic, I found it disturbing that different groups of people who love Jesus and claim the name Christian could have such vastly different interpretations of what was sin and what was not sin.

Understand, because of my father’s line of work, I have attended literally thousands of congregations of different denominations and non-denominations across this United States and around the world. The lack of consistant doctrine between them almost drove me away from Christianity all together. God is NOT the author of coufusion.

Yet, in one town, I could walk into First Assembly of God and find that as a woman, wearing pants or makeup IS considered a sin. I can drive across the town to Faith Assembly of God, and my pants or makeup are a non-issue.

I could go to one denomination and it was sinful to remarry after divorce, yet, the congregation up the road just changed it’s bylaws to allow divorced men to serve as elders “cause if we did not, we’d have no elders”. This one says you are not a Christian if you do not speak in tougues, this one says that is a work of the devil.

I read history, and saw where every single Christian brotherhood or denominiation considered birth control a sin, then, one by one they change their minds like dominoes.

Then, was abortion. One denomination says that is murder and a sin, the congregation next door says it is “between a woman and her God”.

In my heart, I knew that God would not leave his Children so confused. That He had said “upon this rock I will build my Church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it”.

Where was it then?

God showed it to me. He showed where the doctrine on faith and morals has not changed since Jesus ascended into heaven. Where sin is called sin, and reason is welcome. There IS Truth, He left it to us.

Others have broken away, they did not like the Truth, it hurt or offended them. They split and they split and they split, each split taking a step away from the Truth.

Do these Christians love Jesus, yes. They do have pieces and parts of the truth.

The Church is the one place you will find Truth, even if it sometimes offends the ears.

The Church takes being part of the Church as being part of the Body of Christ, and the little toe cannot just decide to wiggle off alone. The Church takes marriage more seriously than any denomination out there. Yes, because it is true.

 

[1ke]

I don’t understand any of it. I don’t understand putting rituals and traditions above being a good, loving person who truly wishes to emulate the spirit of Christ in their lives.

The Church does not do so. You view the Liturgy, Tradition, and disciplinary laws of the Church as being in opposition to being a “good, loving person” who truly wishes to emulate Christ. They are, in fact, not.

The Liturgy, Tradition, disciplinary laws of the Church, Sacraments, grace, and Church herself enable and support us in the emulation of Christ, they help us on the path to Heaven.

I don’t understand the selfishness of claiming that only Catholics have any real connection to the Creator.

The Church does not claim this, nor did I.

I don’t understand blind obedience to a man just because he happens to be the pope.

The Church does not ask for, nor do I give, blind obedience to anyone.

I don’t understand the constant judging, and accusations of being a “sinner” to others when the fact is we are all sinners.

I am not sure what you are referring to here. Who is “constantly” judging and accusing who of being a sinner?

I don’t understand why the teachings of Paul have seemed to overshadow the teachings of Jesus.

Paul’s teachings are Christ’s teachings. He was an Apostle appointed by Christ with a mission to the Gentiles. I’m not sure why you believe Paul’s teachings to be anything other than Christ’s.

I don’t understand why we are told to cling blindly to the “laws” of the Church, when Jesus very clearly denounces those who do the same in the Bible, follow the Jewish laws to the letter, but without love

The Church does not tell us to cling blindly to anything.

And, Christ **established **the Church and the New Covenant. So, of course we are to follow Christ’s Law. Christ did not abolish the Law, he fulfilled it.

I don’t understand how or why you or any other Catholic feels the righteousness to judge others as not being good Christians, or as being in a state of sin, when you yourself are in just as much a state of sin.

And I don’t know where you get the idea that I or any other Catholic has judged anyone as “not being a good Christian” or as being in a state of sin.

I have not.

And I really don’t understand where you all feel justified in saying that you are not judging others, when it is clear that you are.

Please give an example.

Yes, individually Catholics are some of the kindest, most loving folks I know, but as a group, I am beginning to feel that somehow we are the exact same institution and people that Jesus came to preach against.

I think most everything you have posted here is a misunderstanding and a misrepresentation of Church teaching. The things you state above are nowhere found in Church teaching. In my opinion, it’s a lot of tilting at windmills.

I’m not sure where you got the impression that the Church teaches any of the things you listed. Honestly, I’m not sure how you could come away with these ideas.

I can tell you that message boards of this type are not for everyone. People here are debating points of doctrine in many cases. If you want to learn more about the Church in a cohesive manner, then there are classes you can take, books you can read, etc, and of course EWTN you can watch if you get it. Jumping in on one point of Church teaching in the middle of some of these threads without background or understanding of how it fits in the whole could certainly give someone an impression of things being somehow arbitrary. But they are not. The Church’s teachings are a seamless garment and all are rooted in Christ.

I would encourage you to discuss options for classes in your local parish. RCIA, while meant for converts, presents the faith in an organized fashion and gives you an opportunity to study and ask questions. The internet is not always ideal for that.

Mommamia, I’m not sure what has caused you to start questioning or why this thread has you so upset. But I do hope that you will discuss your concerns with your priest, someone with whom you can have a real two-way dialog.

 

[mommamia]

Mommamia, I’m not sure what has caused you to start questioning or why this thread has you so upset. But I do hope that you will discuss your concerns with your priest, someone with whom you can have a real two-way dialog.

It’s not this thread alone. Sadly it was talking to my priest a few that brought me to this point. We had a rather spur of the moment discussion on some not-so-nice things that were going on in the parish. It was him who challenged me to research my faith more, to read the scriptures and to study the history of the Church as to gain better understanding.

The problem is that I didn’t like what I found. I certainly don’t agree with any of the protestant denominations either, and I still tend to think that generally speaking, most devoted Catholics are good about trying to live the love. But there is judgment going on here.

mommamia:

Are you saying they are no better than those who choose to live together without any marriage? Are you saying they are living in a state of fornication?

1ke:

Yes, exactly.

I guess after reading so much scripture lately, I kinda feel only God can decide if they are living in sin or not. Yes I know, you will come back and tell me the Church says “yada, yada, yada” , so you are just “speaking the truth” . But I just can’t agree that we have the right to say this to anyone. I am deeply hurt that my own in-laws don’t consider the Catholic wedding dh and I had a “true Christian wedding”. I couldn’t imagine if when we visited them, they wouldn’t let dh bring me, or let us share a bedroom because they don’t like the way we were married. Now I’m not saying all Catholics feel that way, but I just read a thread where the poster was encouraged Not to let the son’s wife visit overnight with him, because due to your logic… he was baptized Catholic and his marriage is “invalid”, therefore they are living in sin. It made me so sad to see some (not all, there was a wonderful loving post) use the teachings of the Church to shun their own children. I don’t believe Jesus would do that.

 

[rayne89]

This thread has really be hijacked…I think we should get back on topic. Another thread can be started on valid marriage and such if continued discussion is needed.

 

[1ke]

I guess after reading so much scripture lately, I kinda feel only God can decide if they are living in sin or not. Yes I know, you will come back and tell me the Church says “yada, yada, yada” , so you are just “speaking the truth” . But I just can’t agree that we have the right to say this to anyone.

I haven’t told anyone they are sinning.

A person may be doing something that is objectively against God’s commandments, but only God knows if they are sinning because only God knows if they have full knowledge and free will in the matter.

The Bible tells us repeatedly to correct the sinner-- I think the bible uses the term “sinner” to mean someone who is doing something objectively wrong. In Matthew 18:17 it says if the sinner does not mend his ways “And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.” Clearly that requires some “judging” on the part of someone that the person has done wrong.

I am not advocating that we go around “judging” people. But we are called to instruct those who are ignorant of Christ’s Gospel and to correct those who are doing wrong. We are each called to form our own consciences and try to follow God’s law.

I am deeply hurt that my own in-laws don’t consider the Catholic wedding dh and I had a “true Christian wedding”. I couldn’t imagine if when we visited them, they wouldn’t let dh bring me, or let us share a bedroom because they don’t like the way we were married. Now I’m not saying all Catholics feel that way, but I just read a thread where the poster was encouraged Not to let the son’s wife visit overnight with him, because due to your logic… he was baptized Catholic and his marriage is “invalid”, therefore they are living in sin. It made me so sad to see some (not all, there was a wonderful loving post) use the teachings of the Church to shun their own children. I don’t believe Jesus would do that.

I have not advocated treating people in this way.

 

[nodito]

One can certainly choose to leave. That does not change the fact that one is still ontologically Catholic.

They were already Catholic by virtue of their baptism. They are now merely in full communion with the Church, whereas before they were lacking the Sacraments of Eucharist and Confirmation and formal membership which also makes Canon Law binding on them.

1ke, can you clear something up for me? Are all people who receive baptism by the Trinitarian formula considered Catholic? Like, if a Protestant gets baptized in their church, does the Catholic Church consider them to be a Catholic? Would they then be bound my Catholic marriage laws? What is it about baptism within the Church that binds an individual to Catholic marriage laws?

 

[1ke]

1ke, can you clear something up for me? Are all people who receive baptism by the Trinitarian formula considered Catholic? Like, if a Protestant gets baptized in their church, does the Catholic Church consider them to be a Catholic?

There is only one baptism in Christ. Any person who is baptized is baptized into the Body of Christ. The Catechism puts it this way:

CCC 838 “The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter.” Those “who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church.”

Would they then be bound my Catholic marriage laws? What is it about baptism within the Church that binds an individual to Catholic marriage laws?

No, they would not be bound by Catholic law. Canon 11 of the Code of Canon Law covers this:

Can. 11 Merely ecclesiastical laws bind those who have been baptized in the Catholic Church or received into it, possess the efficient use of reason, and, unless the law expressly provides otherwise, have completed seven years of age.

 

[jwashu]

Joe’s understanding… feel free to disagree…

Her husband was non-practicing, obviously his parents weren’t too devout. I’m sure they also knew of the family ties, over the course of 5 years, with the Anglican / Episcopal Church (Catholic Lite as some would say… all the fun and half the guilt! j/k)

The point though is that someone’s soul is in jeopardy when they leave the Church IF they fully understand her teachings.

How many of you FULLY understand all the teachings of the Catholic Church?

Our Pope has said that it is possible to find Salvation outside of the Church and that today’s Protestants never rebelled or understood the Church they can not be guilty of leaving her.

My guess is that this young man is in the same boat (as are many Catholics today). They truly do not understand the teachings, beauty and Truth of the Church. That is where we need to beef up our education.

In some ways, if the OP is more devout as an Anglican, it could be that attending her church will lead him to learn more about the Catholic Church and one day return or both of them convert.

I believe though that God has a plan and that if the parents seemed ok with it and he wasn’t worshiping at a valid Mass, worshiping at an Episcopal service is better than nothing.

Finally I believe if they were so concerned about the teaching on contraception and children or his soul then his parents should have been much more vocal before his conversion, not after the fact and not to his wife.

Joe

 

[Alix1912]

To the original poster,

I am so sorry to here about the treatment you have recieved from your in laws. In-laws are not always the most fun people to deal with on a number of issues. I would in the kindest manner let them know that what goes on in your husband’s and your bedroom is not their business and refrain from making any futher comments about it. You have to set the boundaries in your own life and train your family were those boundaries are. Believe me it’s not an easy thing, 2 and 1/2 years later my husband and I are still working on this with both sides of our family.

To Rolltide and Mammamia and the OP

This is probably not a healthy place for you. While there are many good people on this board, their voices are often drowned out by those who are self righteous, judgemental and mean. My husband is Catholic and I am Lutheran. I had a much more postive view of most Catholics before I came to this board. (I was the one who was always coming to their defense in College when the freaky weird non denoms would attack them) Coming here to learn more only served to drive me away from the Catholic Church. I actually left the board, and would not be posting here if a friend had not e-mailed me this thread, and I felt that I had to say something. Ironically, my view of Catholics greatly improved after months of being gone from this forum. (there is only so many time you can read stuff like, “Why don’t protestants get it?” “Did you know Lutheran was anti semetic” “Did you know the Catholic Church has an unbroken line of popes back to St. Peter” “Why are protestants so mean to me” etc. before you get pretty bitter and sick of it all"

Keep in mind that no matter how educated the posters here can sound, they are often not Theologians, apologists, or clergy, and are often giving their own interpretation of Canon Law. My husband’s parish priest clearly and plainly explained that even though our marriage was not performed in a Catholic Church it was not “invalid” in God’s eyes only in the eyes Catholic Church. We were not fornicating, and if either one of us had cheated it would still have been being unfaithful to our vows. We celebrate our anniversary on the date we were married not the date the approval paperwork came in the mail from the Bishop saying our marriage had been approved by the church.

The attitude of once Catholic always Catholic, and that protestants are all the same and all evil, is exactly why the child we are expecting in October is going to be raised and baptized Lutheran. (waiting for the screams of agony from the peanut gallery ) We will not hide the fact that my husband is Catholic and intend to teach them many of the beautiful traditions found in both churchs (Exp. I went to the Friday Night Stations of the Cross with my husband and it was one of the most beautiful and meaningful Lenten services I have ever attended), and if at some point our kids decide to convert to Catholicism, I’m totally OK with that, but I will not have them treated like errant children because they make a decision as an adult to change denominations. I think during these type of arguements that we forget that we are all Christians, and that is the image we should present to the rest of the world, instead we often present the image of a group of fractured, bickering, petty children.

For those who came here looking to learn more about a spouses or family members Catholic Faith, I advise leaving this forum and not looking back, it only breeds hostile feelings and pain. Instead turn to the family member themselves or their local parrish, you will probably find better advice and understanding there.

However, don’t try and get your membership canceled or removed. I tried, it won’t work…they don’t want to lose there head count of members to prove they are reaching people. I would actually love to see the stats of how many people have actually converted solely because of these forums and how many were actually driven away like me because of them

Alright I’m done with my rant and will log off again and leave.

Good luck, and best of wishes, and good luck with the In Laws. I’d offer to trade, but it would just be a different set of challenges.

Alix

 

[GraceDK]

Sorry Alix.
But I really feel you are condescending.
I have great respect for Lutherans as I grew up as one and most of my family is Lutheran. Your post however just shows that you have learned nothing, since the behaviour you dont like, when its directed at you, you dont mind showing to others.
I am sure that if you have also used this tone here in the past that might have something to do with the response you got.
I am a convert to the Catholic Church, and whereas I have sometimes been treated harshly on these boards and felt misunderstood it has been no less on others such as christianforums.com or speroforum.com among all kinds of believers… there I no doubt heard worse things because I am Catholic than you have ever heard. But why not tell you about the times where I was told to my face that I was going to hell for being a Catholic, that I as Catholic was responsible for people dying of Aids in Africa, that the RCC is the Great Whore of Babylon, that I should get out Her yadayada…
Did I see ill intent in this hardest of verbal persecution? No, I came to these brethren and they didn’t lack charity, they lacked knowlege. So I sat down spoke with them and trying to listen and understand them too.

Peace.

 

[GraceDK]

Grace, it is the Truth. It is not “ridiculous.” The Church teaches that baptism is an indelible mark, one is ontologically Catholic whether one practices their faith or not.

See also my post above regarding Canon 11 and the formal act by which one may be exempted from certain marriage requirements.

The Church teaches and verifies through the code of canon law that one is Catholic by virtue of their Catholic baptism and remain so their entire life.

Do you doubt the authority of the Church in this matter? I’m not sure why this is such a big deal that has spun up over this.

It does not void it of meaning. Just the opposite, it’s quite serious and should be taken seriously.

Sorry Ike…
There is no “ontologically Catholic”… you either believe or you don’t. If you don’t believe in Christ then you better say: “I am a non-believer” because that is the truth. When I was a teenager I didnt call my self Christian, because I knew instincically that being so required a set of beliefs and life that I didn’t have. Now that I have a personal relationship with Christ I dare call myself a Christian which is the same as Believer in Christ, not because I am perfect but because I have opened the gift of salvation in my life.

Two examples: The other day I was talking to a colleague at work. He was cursing and swearing all the time and I have never seen him in Church. Suddenly he said: “Oh I’m Catholic too”. Now. There was no doubt that this guy was NOT Catholic in any way of his thinking or behaviour.

Secondly. I have met many Muslims who say: “Look at Christianity. Its a religion of decadence… just look at Europe”. I tell them: “Hey, a huge amount of Europeans are not Christians, they are secular and they live in secular societies, not Christian societies”.
Being baptised might give you grace as a gift but it does not alter your identity if you never open it and really accept it when you have become a conscious person.

To use concepts like you do makes them void of meaning and useless to everyone. You can choose then to make a theological discourse, showing me this and that document etc. but it does not change that fact.

 

[kage_ar]

Sorry Ike…
There is no “ontologically Catholic”… you either believe or you don’t. If you don’t believe in Christ then you better say: “I am a non-believer” because that is the truth.

I’m not Ike, but, baptism DOES make an ontological change.

scborromeo.org/ccc/para/1272.htm

**1272 **Incorporated into Christ by Baptism, the person baptized is configured to Christ. Baptism seals the Christian with the indelible spiritual mark (character) of his belonging to Christ. No sin can erase this mark, even if sin prevents Baptism from bearing the fruits of salvation. Given once for all, Baptism cannot be repeated.

 

[GraceDK]

I’m not Ike, but, baptism DOES make an ontological change.

scborromeo.org/ccc/para/1272.htm

**1272 **Incorporated into Christ by Baptism, the person baptized is configured to Christ. Baptism seals the Christian with the indelible spiritual mark (character) of his belonging to Christ. No sin can erase this mark, even if sin prevents Baptism from bearing the fruits of salvation. Given once for all, Baptism cannot be repeated.

Kage_ar.
I agree with all that, but I will never agree with non-believers being called Christians or Catholics if they don’t believe in Christ’s divinity etc.

 

[1ke]

Sorry Ike…
There is no “ontologically Catholic”… you either believe or you don’t.

Keep studying, Grace. Take a look at what ontologically means-- it means a state of being. Our souls are imparted with a character at Baptism-- Catholicness-- that can never be removed.

I know you are a convert from the Lutheran church, so keep in mind that what you express above is not the Catholic understanding of the Sacrament of Baptism. ONe is Catholic by virtue of the Sacrament of Baptism. **Baptism does what it signifies. ** It really, truly cleanses our soul of original sin. It really and truly imparts a new, unique character to our souls, and it really and truly incorporates us into the Body of Christ-- permanently.

We can, of course, choose to separate ourselves from the visible Body by our thoughts, words, and deeds. Those actions make us no less Catholic.

If you don’t believe in Christ then you better say: “I am a non-believer” because that is the truth.

We can always freely choose to reject Christ and his Church after baptism. However, that does not make one a non-Christian. It makes one a Christian who is objectively in a state of mortal sin.

When I was a teenager I didnt call my self Christian, because I knew instincically that being so required a set of beliefs and life that I didn’t have. Now that I have a personal relationship with Christ I dare call myself a Christian which is the same as Believer in Christ, not because I am perfect but because I have opened the gift of salvation in my life.

Baptism opens the gift of Salvation to you.

Two examples: The other day I was talking to a colleague at work. He was cursing and swearing all the time and I have never seen him in Church. Suddenly he said: “Oh I’m Catholic too”. Now. There was no doubt that this guy was NOT Catholic in any way of his thinking or behaviour.

And yet, he is just as Catholic as you are. He may be a sinful Catholic, but he is 100% Catholic.

Secondly. I have met many Muslims who say: “Look at Christianity. Its a religion of decadence… just look at Europe”. I tell them: “Hey, a huge amount of Europeans are not Christians, they are secular and they live in secular societies, not Christian societies”.

There are indeed many who are non-believers-- unbaptized. And there are many who are apostates-- baptized but rejecting the faith.

Being baptised might give you grace as a gift but it does not alter your identity if you never open it and really accept it when you have become a conscious person.

Yes, it does alter your identity at the moment it occurs. Your soul is filled with grace and you become a part of the Body of Christ, a child of God, a brother in Christ. Your statement is a reflection of a Protestant understanding, not a Catholic understanding of the Sacrament.

To use concepts like you do makes them void of meaning and useless to everyone. You can choose then to make a theological discourse, showing me this and that document etc. but it does not change that fact.

So it doesn’t matter that the Church teaches it, you reject it? That’s not very Catholic.

 

[Zelie_Louis]

This thread is closed due to off-topic posting.