Catholic Justification vs Protestant Justification

[Paul_Edwards]

If we were saved by faith alone Adolf Hitler any many evil people would be in heaven.

This is evidence the “faith alone” theory is nonsense.

http://http://izquotes.com/quotes-pictures/quote-as-a-christian-i-have-no-duty-to-allow-myself-to-be-cheated-but-i-have-the-duty-to-be-a-fighter-adolf-hitler-85885.jpg

 

[JonNC]

If we were saved by faith alone Adolf Hitler any many evil people would be in heaven.

This is evidence the “faith alone” theory is nonsense.

http://http://izquotes.com/quotes-pictures/quote-as-a-christian-i-have-no-duty-to-allow-myself-to-be-cheated-but-i-have-the-duty-to-be-a-fighter-adolf-hitler-85885.jpg

Hi Paul,
At what point do you believe that Hitler might have had saving faith?

Jon

 

[Paul_Edwards]

Hi Paul,
At what point do you believe that Hitler might have had saving faith?

Jon

By faith I simply mean faith. Scripture does not speak of “saving faith” and “false faith”, faith is faith and works are works, yes one without the other is dead. Adolf Hitler had faith but he went against God’s will and one evil work (mortal sin) outweighs all other good works unless the sacrament of penance is received.

 

[JonNC]

By faith I simply mean faith. Scripture does not speak of “saving faith” and “false faith”, faith is faith and works are works, yes one without the other is dead. Adolf Hitler had faith but he went against God’s will and one evil work (mortal sin) outweighs all other good works unless the sacrament of penance is received.

Hi Paul,
I won’t go too deep into a discussion of saving faith, except to say that it seems clear to me that scripture does distinguish between dead faith and a faith that saves. Example in Romans 4, ***For what does the scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” ***

You said that Hitler had faith. At what point do you believe he had faith, the type of faith that Paul speaks of in Romans, as opposed to the type of faith that James speaks of?

From a Lutheran perspective, while not judging a heart, as that his God’s role, we can view actions, works. We believe that true faith, which is more than mere belief, changes one’s heart. From the confessions: * For good works do not precede faith, neither does sanctification precede justification. But first faith is kindled in us in conversion by the Holy Ghost from the hearing of the Gospel. This lays hold of God’s grace in Christ, by which the person is justified. Then, when the person is justified, he is also renewed and sanctified by the Holy Ghost, from which renewal and sanctification the fruits of good works then follow.*

From our POV, if Hitler, or anyone else for that matter, continues in the way he did, it is hard to imagine that he had the kind of faith both Lutherans and Catholics speak of, that Paul says of Abraham, credited to him as righteousness.

I will agree with your final comment, that faith kindled in our hearts by the Spirit drives us to repentence, confessing our sins sincerely and receiving Holy Absolution of our sins.

Jon

 

[Walden_Pond]

A lot of good information has already been posted, so I don’t want to wear out this thread by rehashing it. Here are several biblical quotes you can use when talking with non-Catholics about Justification. -

Romans 3:28 (this is about faith apart from works of the Jewish law, not ALL works; 3:29 makes the distinction between Judaizers (those who wish to follow Christ AND maintain the old customs, verses Gentiles, who do not perform Jewish works)

Romans 2:6-7 (God rewards each according to their works)

Eph 2:8-9 (you cannot be saved by doing good works apart from Christ)

Eph 2:5 “it is by grace you have been saved” (Non-Catholics will use this quote to defend being saved by grace alone. This is true because there were no works we could do apart from Christ that could save us. No good deed, no sacrifice, no giving. God’s gift of grace saved us. After entering into Christ, we now cannot do works APART from Christ that will add to our salvation.)

The Bible has support that works ARE necessary for salvation:

Matt 12:36-37 Saved by more than faith
James 2:24 Considered righteous by what we do and not faith alone.
Gal 6:7-9 Must do works to be rewarded
James 2:14-25 Faith without works is dead.
Psalm 62:12 God rewards everyone according to what they have done.
Prov 24:12 Will God not repay everyone according to what they have done?
Matt 16:27 Jesus will reward each person according to what they have done.
2 Cor 5:10 We will be judged for the things we have done while in the body.
1 Peter 1:17 The Father judges each person’s work impartially.

 

[JonNC]

A lot of good information has already been posted, so I don’t want to wear out this thread by rehashing it. Here are several biblical quotes you can use when talking with non-Catholics about Justification. -

Romans 3:28 (this is about faith apart from works of the Jewish law, not ALL works; 3:29 makes the distinction between Judaizers (those who wish to follow Christ AND maintain the old customs, verses Gentiles, who do not perform Jewish works)

Romans 2:6-7 (God rewards each according to their works)

Eph 2:8-9 (you cannot be saved by doing good works apart from Christ)

Eph 2:5 “it is by grace you have been saved” (Non-Catholics will use this quote to defend being saved by grace alone. This is true because there were no works we could do apart from Christ that could save us. No good deed, no sacrifice, no giving. God’s gift of grace saved us. After entering into Christ, we now cannot do works APART from Christ that will add to our salvation.)

The Bible has support that works ARE necessary for salvation:

Matt 12:36-37 Saved by more than faith
James 2:24 Considered righteous by what we do and not faith alone.
Gal 6:7-9 Must do works to be rewarded
James 2:14-25 Faith without works is dead.
Psalm 62:12 God rewards everyone according to what they have done.
Prov 24:12 Will God not repay everyone according to what they have done?
Matt 16:27 Jesus will reward each person according to what they have done.
2 Cor 5:10 We will be judged for the things we have done while in the body.
1 Peter 1:17 The Father judges each person’s work impartially.

Just a comment and link regarding judgement, from the Lutheran Catholic dialogue statement, known as The Hope of Eternal Life

1. Catholics and Lutherans affirm together that God, who calls us into a life of communion with him, holds us accountable for our whole lives. The grace we have been given in Christ and the Spirit is not a “talent” to bury, but should become our empowerment for praising God in freedom and contributing to the good of our fellow creatures (cf. Mt. 25:1-14). We also cannot forget that God’s gifts to us can be squandered. Each Christian must take seriously Paul’s admonition, “Therefore let anyone who thinks that he stands take heed lest he fall” (1 Cor. 10:12, RSV).

1. The truths that God will judge our lives, that what we have done in the dark will be brought to light, and that we will know as we are known, all affirm both the seriousness of how each of us lives and God’s faithfulness to his human creatures. Both our traditions reject “security” in the face of divine judgment, while recalling that from those to whom much has been given, much will be required (cf. Lk. 12:48).

1. Both of our traditions, however, form us to live in joyful confidence and certainty of hope. We know that God’s grace is sufficient. God’s judgment is one aspect of the comprehensive establishment of God’s justice, that is, the very justice that is an essential aspect of our hope. Judgment, as our encounter with God revealing the truth about the lives we have lived, is an important and necessary moment of our entrance into the joy of eternal life and thus should be an object of our hope as well.

1. Foundational for our hope, however, is that our Judge will be none other than our Savior. We can entrust the judgment of our lives to the one who died for our trespasses and rose for our justification (cf. Rom. 4:25).

The section on judgement begins at paragraph 64. Our communions have similar views on the topic, which may vary from the Reformed/Calvinist view.
usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/ecumenical-and-interreligious/ecumenical/lutheran/hope-eternal-life.cfm

Jon

 

[Filioque]

Hello my Protestant friends. I love you all. We Catholics don’t believe that we are worthy of salvation based on our own merits. I beg you to understand that point. But that does not free us from continuing to strive for perfection through our works.

One additional issue I’ve seen which has only been touched on in this thread is; One of the initial demands of the first Protestants was that the doctrines they believe in are based on what they determine (claiming the right to be personally moved or inspired by the Holy Ghost.) what true doctrine is. Doctrine in essence assents to them not them to the authority of the Church and the Doctrine which is upheld. Along with this is the determination of who is and is not saved.

As Catholics, we leave to God’s justice and compassion the determination of judgment of a soul to God. Protestants misunderstand that when someone or an error is Anathamatized, it is not a condemnation to hell, but simply a harsh penalty which removes the cancer of error from the Body of the Christ. These individuals still have a duty to assist at Mass, and observe all the Commands of the Bible and the Church except for being barred from reception of the Eucharist or sponsoring at Baptism or Confirmation etc.

Where as with individual interpretation, and rejection of any authority outside oneself, many have told me, Pastor X or Mr. Y was not really saved, even though he seems to have accepted Jesus in the manner I require, there was something wrong with their conversion, which is why he backslid or fell. It’s one thing to condemn an error or sinful lifestyle, (public or private) But to judge if someone is saved or damned is a Protestant Idea, left to the individual, (in most cases, as mainly Evangelical Protestants hold to this)

 

[MacQ]

One additional issue I’ve seen which has only been touched on in this thread is; One of the initial demands of the first Protestants was that the doctrines they believe in are based on what they determine (claiming the right to be personally moved or inspired by the Holy Ghost.) what true doctrine is. Doctrine in essence assents to them not them to the authority of the Church and the Doctrine which is upheld. Along with this is the determination of who is and is not saved.

As Catholics, we leave to God’s justice and compassion the determination of judgment of a soul to God. Protestants misunderstand that when someone or an error is Anathamatized, it is not a condemnation to hell, but simply a harsh penalty which removes the cancer of error from the Body of the Christ. These individuals still have a duty to assist at Mass, and observe all the Commands of the Bible and the Church except for being barred from reception of the Eucharist or sponsoring at Baptism or Confirmation etc.

Where as with individual interpretation, and rejection of any authority outside oneself, many have told me, Pastor X or Mr. Y was not really saved, even though he seems to have accepted Jesus in the manner I require, there was something wrong with their conversion, which is why he backslid or fell. It’s one thing to condemn an error or sinful lifestyle, (public or private) But to judge if someone is saved or damned is a Protestant Idea, left to the individual, (in most cases, as mainly Evangelical Protestants hold to this)

Well done!

 

[CrossofChrist]

Usually, one will get a greater protestant response on the Non-Catholics forum. So, it may be more location than humor.

That said, while there is some truth in what you say about justification and sanctification or Lutherans (I say some truth because Lutherans say there is not one without the other), I have come to the conclusion myself that there is, indeed, only degrees of difference in the understanding of justification.

Jon

That’s exactly why to me it seems negligible when comparing major differences between churches.

 

[Dryden77]

Protestants and Catholics (with the exception of some fringe Protestants) do not have substantially different perspectives about justifications. As a matter of fact, when all misconceptions are taken away, and when all obfuscating differences in terminology are taken away, and notwithstanding the complexities of soteriology but merely the fact and means of justification, I think the argument could be made that both positions are essentially identical.

Agreed. The differences arise when we ask what happens after salvation. Do we lose our salvation for being absent without leave (meaning absent without a good excuse) at a Sunday service? Most Protestants would say No, all Catholics would say Yes. Another difference is the role of the clergy. Catholics would have us believe that the guy who skips church on Sunday but tries to confess his sin the following Monday will go to hell anyway if he dies in a car accident on the way to see his priest (unless God gives him the grace of perfect contrition, a special grace we can’t count on receiving).

Protestants don’t believe that skipping church occasionally is the same thing as rejecting God, and we don’t believe that God withholds forgiveness from us until we manage to track down an ordained priest and tell him we’re sorry.

 

[Filioque]

Hopeful Heretic;11983999:

Protestants and Catholics (with the exception of some fringe Protestants) do not have substantially different perspectives about justifications. As a matter of fact, when all misconceptions are taken away, and when all obfuscating differences in terminology are taken away, and notwithstanding the complexities of soteriology but merely the fact and means of justification, I think the argument could be made that both positions are essentially identical.

Agreed. The differences arise when we ask what happens after salvation. Do we lose our salvation for being absent without leave (meaning absent without a good excuse) at a Sunday service? Most Protestants would say No, all Catholics would say Yes. Another difference is the role of the clergy. Catholics would have us believe that the guy who skips church on Sunday but tries to confess his sin the following Monday will go to hell anyway if he dies in a car accident on the way to see his priest (unless God gives him the grace of perfect contrition, a special grace we can’t count on receiving).

Protestants don’t believe that skipping church occasionally is the same thing as rejecting God, and we don’t believe that God withholds forgiveness from us until we manage to track down an ordained priest and tell him we’re sorry.

Well sort of. While as Catholics we hold what Jesus and the Bible tells us is binding, and most Protestants adhere to what they see the Bible as binding them to. It boils down to the Protestant position of Total Depravity. That when God looks at us before we are “saved” he finds nothing of value, no good exists in us. As for Catholics, while God does not overlook that we are in a state of sin and cut off from eternal life, there is the spark of the Goodness of His creation, which makes us worth His effort and Graces to bring us to salvation.

If a Catholic dies without the opportunity to do what Jesus commanded, (Jesus gave His authority to the Apostles to forgive and retain sins, and the NT commands us to confess our sins.) we do hold if he was contrite, and had the intention to confess his sins, the same God who gave the Apostles, and still today gives their successors is able to forgive the sins of a penitent sinner. It is a Protestant idea that we can judge who is going to hell. Catholics are encouraged to pray for the dead, and those who are dying, that they may die a good death, (ie one which I united with God and His will.) The Church barring any overt reason to believe that someone died with a manifest hatred for God and His law tells us we need to give them the benefit of the doubt and leave their soul to the mercy of God.

The Catholic Church holds members of the Body of Christ to the word of God which in the Ten Commandments tells us that we need to keep holy the Sabbath, Protestantism for the most part again allows the individual, even encourages them by saying that they have the right to personal interpretation, which boils down to, choose what you apply to yourself.

We see this not just with Worship of God on Sunday, but divorce, artificial birth control and we can go on. Either one follows what God tells us in the Bible, (Including accepting the authority Jesus gave the Apostles) or we reject it by putting away what we don’t want to adhere to.

 

[spina1953]

How is one justified? no one really knows for sure. That being said, no one knows with any certainty whether or not one goes or gets into heaven or hell, that is the judgment of God alone. Faith is a pure gift from God and one can also loss it by their own free will.

The Jews during the time of Christ thought they had faith in God but did not do any good deeds towards their fellow man. They looked down on lepers, cripples, sinners, the poor and those who did not follow their particular religious laws about eating and purity etc. Jesus in His teaching as found in all of the Gospels points that out. It seem to me that Jesus is saying that faith alone in God but not doing anything to help others or have mercy is a false faith.

Man due to his fallen human nature, can always fall at any time, (sin) God because He loves has compassion, patience, mercy to forgive. St. Paul said that faith, hope and charity, that charity is the greatest of all since without charity faith is dead. St. James said that faith without good works are useless. Good works does not get anyone into heaven, one dos good works because one does it out of love for God and one’s fellow man. Jesus also said to His Disciples in Matthew 5:14," You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden. Men do not light a lamp and then put it under a bushel basket, They set it on a stand where it gives light to all in the house. In the same way, your light must shine before men so that they may goodness in your acts and give praise to your heavenly Father."

So to me what good is it to have faith if one is not going to do anything about it. Believing in od is not good enough since even the devil believes in God. One needs to show their faith by doing works that give others the chance to see I and therefore give praise to God who does His work through a person, How else is the Kingdom of God to be manifest on earth? One allows God to work through one, so that in the end we are partners with God in preforming the works. it is not us tat does all the work but God who prompts us to do what He wants through us Since we have free will we can either accept or reject God’s prompting to do good works or not.

Assuming that one is justified as many in fringe Protestants denominations believe is just looking for the easy way into heaven.

 

[hu324b]

The arguement is that they believe we think we can save ourselves by works - the truth is we are Justified by our Faith first and foremost everything else follows from that faith whithout faith in Christ as our savior all other things are pointless - they think we do it without Faith.
Which is obviously untrue.

Without faith in Jesus Christ we are not saved - our lives should reflect our faith - they believe their lives need not reflect their faith - that faith in Jesus is enough and nothing more is required. Our works don’t save us our Faith saves us but to sit on it and do nothing it becomes dead which is our arguement.

I believe Faith is enough if you have changed your life and turned from your sinful ways and live a life of obedience to God but your reward is greater if you actually go out in your life and work that Faith.There are many catholics that leave it at the door of the Church when they leave on Sunday and pick it back up when they enter the following Sunday.So there are lots of Catholics that live that faith alone life with out any regard for God when they are not in church and there are many Catholics that go out and live their faith and don’t leave it at the door when they leave on Sunday.

 

[spina1953]

The arguement is that they believe we think we can save ourselves by works - the truth is we are Justified by our Faith first and foremost everything else follows from that faith whithout faith in Christ as our savior all other things are pointless - they think we do it without Faith.
Which is obviously untrue.

Without faith in Jesus Christ we are not saved - our lives should reflect our faith - they believe their lives need not reflect their faith - that faith in Jesus is enough and nothing more is required. Our works don’t save us our Faith saves us but to sit on it and do nothing it becomes dead which is our arguement.

I believe Faith is enough if you have changed your life and turned from your sinful ways and live a life of obedience to God but your reward is greater if you actually go out in your life and work that Faith.There are many catholics that leave it at the door of the Church when they leave on Sunday and pick it back up when they enter the following Sunday.So there are lots of Catholics that live that faith alone life with out any regard for God when they are not in church and there are many Catholics that go out and live their faith and don’t leave it at the door when they leave on Sunday.

What you say is true but according to the CCC there are those who do not believe in Jesus Christ, yet live good lives so that means God through Christ can very well save them also. This be because God through Christ can save whom He wills whether or not they believe in Christ Himself.

 

[hu324b]

The subject it Justification by faith , I have no doubt that Gods mercy and forgivness is beyond all human understanding.