Catholic Kabbala

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

A Rabbi was teaching me Kabbalah. He said that he learned it from his father who learned it from his father, etc. The wisdom of the Kabbalah was passed by word of mouth through small groups to men only. A person could not ask to be taught Kabbalah. He must be invited to learn. Why he was teaching me? I really have no clue. He must have thought that I was ready.

I asked about the widespread schools of Kabbalah. He said that traditions change. The Kabbalah tells us that we are all part of one Kli. All souls progress collectively as a Kli and also individually. He said that the current tradition of spreading Kabbalah through classrooms and allowing women is based upon the thought that the Kli has progressed to a level that anyone who is drawn to the teaching is given a chance. By spreading the teaching, the Kli advances as a spiritual collective and also do the teachers.

According to the Rabbi, Kabbalah is an interpretation of the books. The interpretation changes with time. Different parts have relevance and meanings change in relationship to the development of the Kli. If someone says that he understands Kabbalah it means that he does not understand. Kabbalah is a moving target.

Given that the wisdom is based upon someone’s interpretation, the teaching will vary depending on that someone. There have been certain men who claim to have divine guidance in interpreting the books and teaching the wisdom.

I took it all in and found that parts have Christian counter parts. For example, one Kli and One Mystical Body of Christ. They seemed similar. Maybe that’s what Catholic Kabbalah does.

…Oh… I just thought of another thing that you may find interesting. The Rabbi didn’t answer all questions. He said that the answers were not important. They have a principle, Tikune. Tikune says that only desire is important for growth. Something like, If one has desire, the light will shine upon him. The understanding will come when the student is ready, provided that he has a desire. I thought that it was another way of stating biblical teaching, “Seek and ye shall find, knock and it will be opened.”

Sounds very relativistic to me.

Also not very Christian in nature, more Gnostic.

 

[MtnDwellar]

Hi again. My memory is starting to flow…

I described my experience wrong. It was not like I was being taught Kabbalah. It was more like we discussed Kabbalah while having tea or between matches of the UFC. Yes, the Rabbi enjoyed a good fight.

I asked him where I could go or what book I should get to learn more. He told me not to bother. He said, you are a Catholic. You don’t need Kabbalah. Stay on your path.

 

[Young_Thinker]

Hi again. My memory is starting to flow…

I described my experience wrong. It was not like I was being taught Kabbalah. It was more like we discussed Kabbalah while having tea or between matches of the UFC. Yes, the Rabbi enjoyed a good fight.

I asked him where I could go or what book I should get to learn more. He told me not to bother. He said, you are a Catholic. You don’t need Kabbalah. Stay on your path.

Too bad that he was not more open-minded; I am sure that it would have been an interesting experience for you. I have read that the main text of Kabbalah is the Books of Zohar.

 

[Young_Thinker]

Sounds very relativistic to me.

Also not very Christian in nature, more Gnostic.

A little Gnosticism never hurt anyone! As for perhaps being relativistic, I feel it is not dangerous in this context but instead adds to the individual experience.

 

[MtnDwellar]

Too bad that he was not more open-minded; I am sure that it would have been an interesting experience for you. I have read that the main text of Kabbalah is the Books of Zohar.

The Zohar and the Torah. An interesting thing about the Zohar is that it was never fully translated to English until this or perhaps last year. The stories in the Zohar will seem meaningless. Kabbalah is the mystical interpretation of the Zohar. The interpretations are divinely inspired. If you study Kabbalah, you will probably never touch the Zohar.

The Rabbi was very open minded. He was open minded enough to befriend a Gentile and discuss Kabbalah!

What are you looking to gain from Kabbalah?

I have to say that I gained knowledge. I will also say the Rabbi frequently told me that he had a high regard for Catholics. He thought that our teaching was very robust. I asked him what a Kabbalist thinks about Christ. He said that there is no teaching about Christ, but thinks that He would have made a good Kabbalist.

If I thought that you could learn about Kabbalah the way that I did, no pressure and no one trying to convince you, I would say go for it. The parts that I remember, are the parts that seemed Catholic. In a way, it re-enforced my faith. I really can’t remember the parts about the Tree of Life and Sephirot. There were a lot of details and it was mathematical in nature.

Have you studied Catholic Mysticism?

 

[Young_Thinker]

The Zohar and the Torah. An interesting thing about the Zohar is that it was never fully translated to English until this or perhaps last year. The stories in the Zohar will seem meaningless. Kabbalah is the mystical interpretation of the Zohar. The interpretations are divinely inspired. If you study Kabbalah, you will probably never touch the Zohar.

The Rabbi was very open minded. He was open minded enough to befriend a Gentile and discuss Kabbalah!

What are you looking to gain from Kabbalah?

I have to say that I gained knowledge. I will also say the Rabbi frequently told me that he had a high regard for Catholics. He thought that our teaching was very robust. I asked him what a Kabbalist thinks about Christ. He said that there is no teaching about Christ, but thinks that He would have made a good Kabbalist.

If I thought that you could learn about Kabbalah the way that I did, no pressure and no one trying to convince you, I would say go for it. The parts that I remember, are the parts that seemed Catholic. In a way, it re-enforced my faith. I really can’t remember the parts about the Tree of Life and Sephirot. There were a lot of details and it was mathematical in nature.

Have you studied Catholic Mysticism?

I am grateful your suggestions. I am looking for a fuller knowledge of Judeo-Christian spirituality and find that some aspects of Judaism(e.g. their folklore and philosophies) are not usually in Christianity. Having said that, I confess that I know relatively little about various schools of mysticism, whether in Christianity or outside of it. As pertaining to the ones that are distinctly Christian, I mostly just know a little about those of the Carmelites and St. Ignatius of Loyola (I hope to become a Jesuit someday).

 

[BluesPicker]

There is a true Jewish Kabbalah and this appears to be what Mtndwellar studied. But really these New Age Cabalalists with their little red bracelets and come on a Catholic Kabbalah.

Father Jordi Rivero on Kabbalah, translated from the original by Google. (not a perfect translation but you can get the idea.)

Hebrew: quabbalah, tradition.

Theosophical doctrines system initiated by the Jews in Europe to interpret the Old Testament in a mystical and allegorical. It is an esoteric method of interpretation that purports to reveal the hidden doctrines started about God and the world.

Popularly called Kabbalah also a superstitious conjecture or supposition, the intrigue and machinations.

Not to be confused with the true Kabbalah Jewish faith. It is a secret doctrines which are based on supposed revelations that are not part of the canon of Scripture.

Its implementation has changed over the centuries. After the eleventh or twelfth century Jewish philosophical system called Kabbalah start doctrine falsely present continuously transmitted by the patriarchs and prophets from the creation of first man.

The two books that Kabbalists have the doctrinal authority are the Book of Creation and the Zohar, which is called the “Bible” of the Kabbalists. The compilation of the Zohar is attributed to Moses de Leon, a Spanish Jew (+1305), although some of its elements seem to be much older. Some of his ideas seem to be of the Greek philosophers, the pantheistic Egyptians and Gnostics .

Beliefs of the Kabbalahl:

God is the Supreme Being, Endless, Infinite

God manifests himself in ten powers who formed the first foundation of the world and that in turn led to the second world, each producing the next world.

Human beings were created by a power. The soul of every human being existed before conception and return to God through transmigration.

Kabbalah practitioners can, according to their beliefs, enter into direct communication with invisible powers and exercise power over demons, nature, disease, etc. This is the most attractive part of the beliefs and Kabbalah is called “practice”

The God of Kabbalah is formulated as a rejection of God revealed by Jesus Christ. Kabbalistic beliefs:

The true Messiah will be born at the end of time and then the world will return to its Source. Then hell will end and begin a time of great happiness.

Human redemption is achieved by the rigid enforcement of the law.

Salvation is achieved through knowledge “esoteric” special. Each person is an agent of his own salvation. The person through secret knowledge, can attain the divinity.

These doctrines are supposed to be in the Hebrew Scriptures but can find only those who have been initiated using esoteric methods of hermeneutics. These include giving numerical values to letters and exchange of letters.

The cabal is in the current New Age .

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

There is a true Jewish Kabbalah and this appears to be what Mtndwellar studied. But really these New Age Cabalalists with their little red bracelets and come on a Catholic Kabbalah.

Father Jordi Rivero on Kabbalah, translated from the original by Google. (not a perfect translation but you can get the idea.)

Hebrew: quabbalah, tradition.

Theosophical doctrines system initiated by the Jews in Europe to interpret the Old Testament in a mystical and allegorical. It is an esoteric method of interpretation that purports to reveal the hidden doctrines started about God and the world.

Popularly called Kabbalah also a superstitious conjecture or supposition, the intrigue and machinations.

Not to be confused with the true Kabbalah Jewish faith. It is a secret doctrines which are based on supposed revelations that are not part of the canon of Scripture.

Its implementation has changed over the centuries. After the eleventh or twelfth century Jewish philosophical system called Kabbalah start doctrine falsely present continuously transmitted by the patriarchs and prophets from the creation of first man.

The two books that Kabbalists have the doctrinal authority are the Book of Creation and the Zohar, which is called the “Bible” of the Kabbalists. The compilation of the Zohar is attributed to Moses de Leon, a Spanish Jew (+1305), although some of its elements seem to be much older. Some of his ideas seem to be of the Greek philosophers, the pantheistic Egyptians and Gnostics .

Beliefs of the Kabbalahl:

God is the Supreme Being, Endless, Infinite

God manifests himself in ten powers who formed the first foundation of the world and that in turn led to the second world, each producing the next world.

Human beings were created by a power. The soul of every human being existed before conception and return to God through transmigration.

Kabbalah practitioners can, according to their beliefs, enter into direct communication with invisible powers and exercise power over demons, nature, disease, etc. This is the most attractive part of the beliefs and Kabbalah is called “practice”

The God of Kabbalah is formulated as a rejection of God revealed by Jesus Christ. Kabbalistic beliefs:

The true Messiah will be born at the end of time and then the world will return to its Source. Then hell will end and begin a time of great happiness.

Human redemption is achieved by the rigid enforcement of the law.

Salvation is achieved through knowledge “esoteric” special. Each person is an agent of his own salvation. The person through secret knowledge, can attain the divinity.

These doctrines are supposed to be in the Hebrew Scriptures but can find only those who have been initiated using esoteric methods of hermeneutics. These include giving numerical values to letters and exchange of letters.

The cabal is in the current New Age .

Secret knowledge, what we know of as the Heresy of the Gnostics.

 

[Young_Thinker]

There is a true Jewish Kabbalah and this appears to be what Mtndwellar studied. But really these New Age Cabalalists with their little red bracelets and come on a Catholic Kabbalah.

Father Jordi Rivero on Kabbalah, translated from the original by Google. (not a perfect translation but you can get the idea.)…

Thank you for sharing this. What you described reminds me of Zoroastrianism and Manicheanism. It is still very interesting, though and probably useful. On the hand, the kind of Kabbalah that involves trying to communicate with “invisible powers” and control demons and the like seems very dangerous.

 

[theotikos]

I had a religious studies professor who did a book on the Kabbalah Centre in Los Angeles. Look it up, Jody Myers. We joked in class that she had the chance to interview Madonna

 

[Young_Thinker]

I had a religious studies professor who did a book on the Kabbalah Centre in Los Angeles. Look it up, Jody Myers. We joked in class that she had the chance to interview Madonna

Hahah! Thank you for mentioning this.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

As a Catechumen I believe that you should leave these side things alone.

You have enough to learn to prepare yourself for entry into the Catholic Church as it is rather than dabbling in the possible occult/gnosticism.

Especially now the enemy will be out to thwart your entry fully into the Faith.

Avoid these things until your baptism and full entry into the Church when you will have a bit more protection especially more understanding of what is authentically Catholic and what is not.

 

[Young_Thinker]

As a Catechumen I believe that you should leave these side things alone.

You have enough to learn to prepare yourself for entry into the Catholic Church as it is rather than dabbling in the possible occult/gnosticism.

Especially now the enemy will be out to thwart your entry fully into the Faith.

Avoid these things until your baptism and full entry into the Church when you will have a bit more protection especially more understanding of what is authentically Catholic and what is not.

All right, Brother.

 

[Celticnovice]

Kabbala looks awfully Gnostic, if you read into the origins you will see for yourself.

Check out the following:

Anything on the spirituality of the early church Fathers.

St. Teresa’s Interior Castle

St. Ignatius’ Spiritual Exercises. (Especially the section “Three Methods of Prayer”)

 

[White_Tree]

Secret knowledge, what we know of as the Heresy of the Gnostics.

Brother, with all due respect, I think it’s inappropriate to refer to this as heresy. The Kabbalists merely withheld some knowledge until their students had been properly initiated.

The same practice was used in the early days of the Church, wherein some teachings were kept secret from those who had not yet been fully initiated. Even prayers like the Our Father and the Creed were not shared with Catechumens until they were deemed to be ready. This practice came to be called the Disciplina Arcani, and you can read about it here: newadvent.org/cathen/05032a.htm

Furthermore, even Jesus kept some knowledge secret from His disciples:

And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. – Matthew 13:10-11

Jesus was clearly not a heretic, nor were the Fathers of the Church. So what is the distinction between this practice by Jesus and the early Church, and the Kabbalists’ practice of withholding certain knowledge until a person is ready to receive it?

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Brother, with all due respect, I think it’s inappropriate to refer to this as heresy. The Kabbalists merely withheld some knowledge until their students had been properly initiated.

The same practice was used in the early days of the Church, wherein some teachings were kept secret from those who had not yet been fully initiated. Even prayers like the Our Father and the Creed were not shared with Catechumens until they were deemed to be ready. This practice came to be called the Disciplina Arcani, and you can read about it here: newadvent.org/cathen/05032a.htm

Furthermore, even Jesus kept some knowledge secret from His disciples:

And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. – Matthew 13:10-11

Jesus was clearly not a heretic, nor were the Fathers of the Church. So what is the distinction between this practice by Jesus and the early Church, and the Kabbalists’ practice of withholding certain knowledge until a person is ready to receive it?

I am sorry but I stand by my statement according to the descriptions of Kabbala as described in this thread.

It has been stated that part of Kabbala is private/secret interpretations of Scritpure that the uninitiated do not get. That sounds like Gnosticism to me.

 

[White_Tree]

I am sorry but I stand by my statement according to the descriptions of Kabbala as described in this thread.

It has been stated that part of Kabbala is private/secret interpretations of Scritpure that the uninitiated do not get. That sounds like Gnosticism to me.

But I asked what is the distinction between the Catholic practice of withholding information from the uninitiated (i.e. those who have not yet received the
Sacraments of Initiation in the Catholic Church, or progressed suitably towards doing so) and the Jewish practice of withholding information from the uninitiated? Can you spell it out for me, please?

Why is one justified, and the other is heresy?

I apologize if I seem to be prodding on this issue, but you have not addressed my original question.

 

[White_Tree]

But I asked what is the distinction between the Catholic practice of withholding information from the uninitiated (i.e. those who have not yet received the
Sacraments of Initiation in the Catholic Church, or progressed suitably towards doing so) and the Jewish practice of withholding information from the uninitiated? Can you spell it out for me, please?

Why is one justified, and the other is heresy?

I apologize if I seem to be prodding on this issue, but you have not addressed my original question.

 

[Young_Thinker]

I always thought that “Christian” Gnosticism (including Catharism) was heretical more as a result of its theology than its methods.

 

[Young_Thinker]

…Even schools of thought like Existentialism seem to have been influenced by the Gnostics. In addition, I believe that virtually every heresy or false religion contains some truth.