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Legal_Eagle
Guest
Right. Don Wildmon says he’s an independent too. Now show me a policy position of the Catholic League that differs a whit from that of the Republicans.
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Fidelis
Guest
Correction. You have given example after example of what you charge the Catholic League of saying, but you have not quoted Bill Donahue directly to support anything you have said. Until then, it’s just heresay, if not slander.
And I still say since you are the one making the charges, the burden of proof is on you to substantiate the charge that they are marching lock-step with the GOP with direct quotes from the Catholic League.For pete’s sake, it doesn’t seem like it would be that tough.
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Franciscan
Guest
Legal Eagle,
Your making a mistake to think that the Catholic League has official policy positions. They are not a political party with a platform spelled out. As if you can go and see where they stand on any given political issue. That’s not what they are about…
What Does the Catholic League Do?
When **slanderous assaults **are made against the Catholic Church, the Catholic League hits the newspapers, television, and radio talk shows defending the right of the Church to promote its teachings with as much verve as any other institution in society.
When Catholics are the victims of a **bigoted portrayal **by the media, the Catholic League issues news releases bringing the matter to the attention of the public. It may also encourage a boycott of the program’s sponsors.
When Catholic students or employees are denied their rights in school or on the job, the Catholic League makes a formal response to the guilty parties; the league response may include litigation.
When the religious freedom rights of any American are threatened, the Catholic League stands ready to fight for justice in the courts.
When Catholics are slighted by public officials, the Catholic League calls press conferences alerting the public to the unacceptable behavior of their servants.
**When Catholic interests are unfairly represented **by public policy initiatives, the Catholic League offers testimony before legislative bodies to set the record straight.
When officials in government, the media and education need an informed perspective on Catholic civil rights issues, the Catholic League provides a quick and effective response.
**So the onus is on you **to show where any Republican has violated religious rights, offended, slandered, unfairly represented Catholics.
As for me, I dont have all day to establish non-existant policy positions of a group who by their own description is not about policy or advocating positions(unless its in the context of defense i.e. abortion). They are about defending Catholcs and the Church against attacks.
It’s not their fault if Republicans are not as anti-Catholic as other parties.
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estesbob
Guest
I wasnt aware the Catholic League had policy positions. Can you tell us what they are?
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tomarin
Guest
can you tell us why the board of the catholic league has so many shared members with the board of the heritage foundation?
i agree with legal eagle that they don’t represent the full scope of catholic social teaching. if they did, the heritage foundation wouldn’t want them on their board.
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mary_bobo
Guest
What in the world are you talking about? If the policies the League takes offend you, just don’t listen. Political party has nothing to do with it. Some folks look for a boogie man behind every tree.
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estesbob
Guest
Why would it matter if they share members with the Heritage Foundation? ? What has the Catholic League done that you disagree with?
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tomarin
Guest
okay, admittedly it’s guilt by association, but i think it’s entirely legitimate to inquire into the degree to which a group that calls itself catholic but which has strong ties to the political right (again, heritage foundation, d’nesh d’souza) actually follows catholic social teaching.
i’m still figuring it out, but why for example did bill donohue go on the glen beck show two nights ago to talk about what a wonderful chap jerry falwell was? (maybe he was a wonderful chap who did wonderful things, but it strikes me as odd that a prominent catholic would go to bat for an evangelical protestant minister who is also a leader of the christian right. it suggests his political alliances are as important as his religious loyalties.)
can we at least agree that whenever a catholic group’s stances on issues (yes they do take stances; read their website as i do every day) neatly dovetail with a political party’s, that should send up red flags?
pax christi,
tomarin
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Franciscan
Guest
Just curious why is d’nesh d’souza and the heritage foundation so bad?
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tomarin
Guest
they’re not bad they’re just political creatures (i actually don’t know about d’nesh’s religious beliefs, but i do know he’s a well known conservative commentator – a fairly reactionary one, at that). our faith transcends politics. don’t you agree?
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Franciscan
Guest
Tomarin, I read your posts in this thread and some others and I think you are starting to realize that the answer to your question is …no.
Humans by nature and by God’s design are communal. We all have an obligation for the promotion of the common good, the promotion of those ideals that the Founders of this country had-life, liberty, pursuit of happiness, property, religious freedom etc. None of which run contrary to Catholic thought. As Aristotle said we are political animals.
Since we Catholics are in a system where we , the people, still have some say over how things go down- must be political and not apathetic to the creation, interpretation and application of law, policy etc.
I mean look at the Supreme Court-they have alot of power for an unelected branch of gov…Do we have any say who is nominated-Yes we do—It depends on who is persident (and also who is in the Senate).
Please don’t make the same mistake that Kerry and Pelosi and Guliani are making…That there Catholic Faith should be completely separate, completely private and completely mute in determining the most imporatant and noble question-“What is best for the common good?”.
Nothing will inform one’s mind, and conscience to answer that better than the Catholic Worldview.
So, you’re right, party politics should not override the Catholic worldview but if you put both parties side by side and manage to hold your breath for the sake of the areas that they stink- in most cases-IMO the Republican Party is more in line with Catholic thought. It used to be the Democrats that were more in line with Catholic thought but they radically abandoned that affiliation.
Lastly, I would always judge individuals over party affiliation and not just vote a straight party line. P.S. I know Catholics who are committed to their Faith and disagree with me on political affiliation.
But just cause we Catholics are divided politicall;y does not mean that we become apolitical or that we don’t let our Catholic faith inform our political choices.
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Fidelis
Guest
Or, it could suggest that the things that all Christians have in common, such as defense of life and faith in Jesus Christ, are more important than the things that divide us.
We *could *agree to that, if objective proof and indisputible evidence were offered to this end. To date, however, no such **direct **evidence has been provided, despite numerous requests by numerous posters. In fact, the posters who were making the most egregious, but unsupported charges about the Catholic League, seem to have abandoned this thread.
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tomarin
Guest
ugh. please don’t compare me to those people. they repel me. i’m no cafeteria catholic, that’s precisely why i’m suspicious of groups that appear to have a political agenda speaking on behalf of catholicism.
actually i agree with almost everything in your post, certainly i agree that we must follow our consciences (guided by the church’s teaching) when casting our votes and i would never argue for us to be “apolitical.”
your point about republicans being “more” in line with catholic thinking is well taken, but it sure aint a perfect fit (in my view). on social justice issues i believe there’s no fit at all. i may have to hold my nose and vote for a republican candidate some day but in my part of the country the republican candidates tend to be pro-choice anyway so it’s a tricky issue.
pax christi,
tomarin
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Franciscan
Guest
My Bad. I thought when you said “Faith trancends politics” that you were saying that our Faith should not inform our choices.
But I get you now.
We’re both saying the same thing.
There certainly is a tension between being a Non-Cafeteria Catholic and being political in a two party system.
p.s. sorry I associated you w/those morons.
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tomarin
Guest
apology gladly accepted!
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jkatpc
Guest
I think the reason the Catholic League appears more aligned with Republican policy is because the Republican Party in this country has the stones (thank God) to make liberal moral lassitude into agenda items worth fighting for. Homosexual activity is wrong, not “fine as long as two consenting adults, yada yada.” Abortion is wrong in all cases, not a “choice” issue. Artificial birth control and the “have fun” culture have resulted in an inadequate reproductive replacement rate for most of the developed world (I know ABC will break some Republican ranks). Public school teaching that everybody and everything they do should be embraced because nothing is “more right” than anything else (teaching school kids about homosexual techniques on school time?!! – worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=17490 ) will result in children that have been “educated” to believe no belief system is greater than another. The point is that so much of what the conservative element in this country considers morally right is in alignment with Catholic teaching.
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Fric
Guest
Going to jump in late here…
The US bishops tend to take very liberal views on many subjects and not so on others. Their opinions are not binding on legitimate areas that are open to discussion. To imply that Catholics who hold differing political opinions than those of the US bishops is disingenuous at best.
It’s one thing to refer to Rerum Novarum and its laying out of certain principles Catholics need to adhere to and consider in the social order and quite another to say that RN means that Republican positions on social issues are at odds with Catholic teaching. And that is pretty much what you are saying.
So is the general pro-life position at odds? Let me guess, you’ll bring up the death penalty to say it is. Never mind the fact that it is also an issue we are free to exercise judgement on. Bear in mind that in the US and most of the civilised world I think the death penalty should not be used so much. I would not abolish it, but would rather reserve it for the very rare and unique cases where society cannot protect itself from violent criminals. I would not tell primitive societies with no means of effectively incarcerating a sociopathic serial murderer that the death penalty would be sinful and not in line with Catholic Social Teaching™.
By the way, I notice that you provide 1 link to a list of statements by the US bishops and not a single one to positions and policies of the Catholic League. Yet your words imply that the CL is at odds with the USCCB. Are you a mainstream media journalist? This is a tactice worthy of the NY Times. You are slaying a straw man when you do not provide real examples for debate.
Actually, we are called to seek God. How we live our lives needs to be just, no doubt. That doesn’t make it the overriding thing we seek. It seems this is a common mistake, or common approach if you will, of those with a particular political agenda who seek to form their religion to their political views.
And this is where legitimate disagreements come in. How do we balance. For many, the approach of the US bishops does NOT represent balance. The bishops are opining (making an opinion known) on a subject that is left to the prudential judgement of secular leaders. There is not one single way to approach these problems. You can tell this because you can easily look at history and see that legal immigration and relatively open and/or closed borders have been rightly handled differently in different times and different places. Therefore there isn’t a single moral path that excludes all others.
The US bishops tend to take very liberal views on many subjects and not so on others. Their opinions are not binding on legitimate areas that are open to discussion. To imply that Catholics who hold differing political opinions than those of the US bishops is disingenuous at best.
It’s one thing to refer to Rerum Novarum and its laying out of certain principles Catholics need to adhere to and consider in the social order and quite another to say that RN means that Republican positions on social issues are at odds with Catholic teaching. And that is pretty much what you are saying.
So is the general pro-life position at odds? Let me guess, you’ll bring up the death penalty to say it is. Never mind the fact that it is also an issue we are free to exercise judgement on. Bear in mind that in the US and most of the civilised world I think the death penalty should not be used so much. I would not abolish it, but would rather reserve it for the very rare and unique cases where society cannot protect itself from violent criminals. I would not tell primitive societies with no means of effectively incarcerating a sociopathic serial murderer that the death penalty would be sinful and not in line with Catholic Social Teaching™.
By the way, I notice that you provide 1 link to a list of statements by the US bishops and not a single one to positions and policies of the Catholic League. Yet your words imply that the CL is at odds with the USCCB. Are you a mainstream media journalist? This is a tactice worthy of the NY Times. You are slaying a straw man when you do not provide real examples for debate.
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Fidelis
Guest
Save your breath – Legal Eagle has left the room. He stopped responding yesterday when he was asked in previous posts to cite specific Catholic League quotes to back up his claims. He was in the forum this morning, but was notably absent from this thread
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tomarin
Guest
to be honest, he probably isn’t posting because he doesn’t feel he needs to repeat himself. everything he needed to say to rebut your attacks was in his first post.Save your breath – Legal Eagle has left the room. He stopped responding yesterday when he was asked in previous posts to cite specific Catholic League quotes to back up his claims. He was in the forum this morning, but was notably absent from this thread
somehow, i think you all are missing something (maybe it’s “thou shalt not kill” or “blessed are the peacemakers for they shall inherit the kingdom of heaven”) but i guess that’s one of those legitimate political differences. i don’t want to reduce my religion down to politics.
of one thing i’m sure, and that’s the culture of life doesn’t end with the unborn.
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Fidelis
Guest
I’m fine with that; if his idea of honest criticism is leveling unsubtantiated charges verging on slander, then so be it.
BTW, since when has asking for simple evidence of what should be, if true, an easily substatiated charge amounted to an “attack”?
On the contrary, I believe you are the one that has missed the point. Let me put you up to date.
Nobody here has said or implied that “the culture of life ends with the unborn.” **What is under debate is the OP’s unsubstantiated slander against the Catholic League that they are basically an apendage of the GOP. **This was the original issue that has not been proven by the OP (or anyone else) because, apparently, there is no proof. As a result, others in this thread who are sympathetic to the OP’s predjudices have tried to cover that embarassing fact by continuing to pretend that what they have charged the Catholic League with is a fact, and then accusing other posters of holding similar views.
I’ve seen this tactic work well with children and cretins, but not with thinking adults.
Anyway, now you’re up to date. Hope that helps.
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