Catholic Liturgical Music

[benedictgal]

Here’s my two cents.

Patches, you are correct that the “everything is new, everything is old” approach is not entirely accurate. There are many beautiful chants and hymns written and adapted in recent times (though I couldn’t name one for lack of memory).

A little background. I grew up in a parish which sang only traditional hymns with the exception of one “folk Mass” on Sunday’s which had the Haugen/Haas music. The pastor eventually died and the music opened up to a more…contemporary style. I played bass guitar in the praise and worship band at the youth Mass for 4 years. I have since moved to another city and sing in the chant choir with lvschant.

I see a major problem with the approach that it is acceptable with any instrument if the song is liturgically appropriate and done well. Dr. Kurt Poterack gave a chant workshop at our parish, during which he explained the difficulty with modern instruments (for lack of a better phrase). He explained that the instrument must be cleansed of its secular connection before being introduced for use in the Mass. When you see a guitar or drum kit (or bass guitar) outside of a church, do you think of Mass, holiness, worshiping God, etc.? I’d bet not. You’re probably more likely to have those thoughts or feelings when seeing a pipe organ.

When a person walks into a church and sees a guitar or other “band” equipment, they generally think of a rock band (secular thoughts). The band instruments don’t make people think of holiness and religious thoughts, they point to something secular while inside a church.

The biggest reasons I quit playing in the band at Mass were the lack of reverence and focus on the Eucharist (hand motions in the front of the church, applause for the band at the end of Mass, complete distraction of having a band messing with equipment, tuning guitars, fooling with music throughout the Mass; 2) we were “performing” at Mass. People came to hear a Christian rock concert at Mass. It was shallow and base and did directly point to God. (And not that many people came anyway.)

Finally, people long for a true spiritual connection with God. The tradition, reverence, sensory aspects, and true fear of and love of God in a pure religious experience is what brings people to Christ. They come to Mass because Christ calls us to be in the world not of the world. Bringing the world into Mass only distracts.

Thanks for listening. I don’t expect anyone to agree. I haven’t convinced my wife yet, so I don’t expect to convince anyone else.

You have actually made some very, very concrete and well-thought out points. You’ve eloquently said what I’ve been wanting to say, but, because I don’t have a musical background, I’m not considered authoritative on the subject.

I’ve been to Masses where the full rock band is in swing. Oddly enough, Duran Duran makes a better appearance than some of the folks in the band. The toe-tapping and swaying are rather annoying and the focus is more on what I’m doing to glorify God rather than the Sacred Mysteries unfolding before our very eyes.

Furthermore, introducing this element into the Mass does not do the young people any favors. OCP, in its efforts to market its Spirit and Song hymnals, says that young people need to “sing a new Church into being.” Sorry. We don’t need a new Church. We already have the Church.

Now, I am not totally averse to new music. However, there has to be a very strong element of the Sacred Mysteries that we are celebrating. When a hymn turns into “oh look at me, I’m lifting the Lord’s Name on high”, rather than, “let all mortal flesh keep silent and with fear and trembling stand, ponder nothing earthly minded, for with blessing in His Hand, Christ our God to earth decendeth, our full homage to demand”, then there is something very wrong with the focus.

You are very eloquent. Welcome to the forum!

 

[deSalingAway]

Thank you benedictgal.

I must say, our band was very good. Many of the members were professional musicians and we practiced together outside of Mass to make sure we played well together.

It doesn’t change the fact that we even added a verse to "Open the Eyes of My Heart which sang:

I have run
I have crawled
I have scaled these city walls
Only to be with you

Sound familiar?

 

[benedictgal]

Thank you benedictgal.

I must say, our band was very good. Many of the members were professional musicians and we practiced together outside of Mass to make sure we played well together.

It doesn’t change the fact that we even added a verse to "Open the Eyes of My Heart which sang:

I have run
I have crawled
I have scaled these city walls
Only to be with you

Sound familiar?

Hope Bono doesn’t come after you!!!

I would probably have a heart attack if someone decided to sing U2’s Gloria in place of the Gloria (although Bono’s version does have Latin in it) or One. Kind of scary, huh?

 

[Brother_John]

You’re probably more likely to have those thoughts or feelings when seeing a pipe organ.

I see a pipe organ, and think of Frank Pellico at the old Chicago Stadium or Leon Berry at the Hub Roller Rink in Chicago as well. Not exactly “church” music

Church or other venue, a good pipe organ and accomplished organist are hard to beat.

:dancing:

 

[patches]

I see a major problem with the approach that it is acceptable with any instrument if the song is liturgically appropriate and done well.

That’s not quite what I was saying. Rather, I was reacting to the assumption that only organ is appropriate, eschewing,as some do ALL others under ALL circumstances. In my opinion there’s nothing better than leading a big congregation SATB hymn than the organ, but there’s also room for other instruments
as well

He explained that the instrument must be cleansed of its secular connection before being introduced for use in the Mass.

That seems a bit of a reach. Piano has no particular “secular” connection, nor do many others, excluding rock instruments.

When you see a guitar or drum kit (or bass guitar) outside of a church, do you think of Mass, holiness, worshiping God, etc.? I’d bet not. You’re probably more likely to have those thoughts or feelings when seeing a pipe organ.

Hmmm, when I see them, I think "Oh, a guitar, oh, a drum kit, oh, a bass guitar. And although I would not ever use electric guitar, bass, or drums for liturgy. I wasn’t speaking of those particular instruments, which I agree as part of their pedigree are generally secular. I was referring to the blanket statement about anything other than organ being inappropriate. When I see a pen, I think of neither Shakespeare or Nietzsche. There’s no inherent holiness or lack thereof in most inanimate musical instruments per se. (unless they’re adorned with peace signs or playboy bunnies, of course) Methinks the good doctor might be digging a little too hard in mining support for his own preference in music.

When a person walks into a church and sees a guitar or other “band” equipment, they generally think of a rock band (secular thoughts). The band instruments don’t make people think of holiness and religious thoughts, they point to something secular while inside a church.

Good point. Myself, I don’t think secular thoughts, but I do think “there’s good chance the music is going to be really bad and totally inappropriate for mass.”

The biggest reasons I quit playing in the band at Mass were the lack of reverence and focus on the Eucharist (hand motions in the front of the church, applause for the band at the end of Mass, complete distraction of having a band messing with equipment, tuning guitars, fooling with music throughout the Mass; 2) we were “performing” at Mass. People came to hear a Christian rock concert at Mass. It was shallow and base and did directly point to God. (And not that many people came anyway.)

All good points “Praise band” music has no place Catholic worship because of the solemnity of the Eucharist. But bad musical choices in and improper demeanor on the part of the musicians seem to be the biggest problems here. When I incorporate “non-organ” instruments, it’s flute, clarinet, violin, cello, guitar (usually finger-picked rather than strummed) --not at all irreverent when they’re played appropriately. I don’t think there’s any real case that these are “secular” instruments.

Finally, people long for a true spiritual connection with God. The tradition, reverence, sensory aspects, and true fear of and love of God in a pure religious experience is what brings people to Christ. They come to Mass because Christ calls us to be in the world not of the world. Bringing the world into Mass only distracts.

I agree. But I still maintain the problem is largely in the writing and execution of the music. I’m sure adherents of Palestrina caused shock among those who advocated only plain chant. I think after all, it’s a judgement call, and what we need to work on most is our judgement.

Thanks for listening. I don’t expect anyone to agree. I haven’t convinced my wife yet, so I don’t expect to convince anyone else.

I don’t think our thinking is very far apart at all. I lead a choir at a Catholic church, and I see quite a bit of close-mindedness and entrenchment on both sides of the traditional/contemporary issue. I’m no big fan of most of the 60’s Catholic hit parade that has become so popular. While I favor music that has stood the test of time, I’ve found some very good music that is 1) written by contemporary composers 2) does not necessarily involve the pipe organ 3) is very singable for the congregation 4) is reverent and perfectly suited to use at mass.
I think the most important question is, what is appropriate music for the awesome and holy mysteries of the mass,-- all else strikes me as secondary.

 

[Guitar]

In my opinion there’s nothing better than leading a big congregation SATB hymn than the organ, but there’s also room for other instruments as well

Piano has no particular “secular” connection, nor do many others, excluding rock instruments.

“Praise band” music has no place Catholic worship because of the solemnity of the Eucharist. But bad musical choices in and improper demeanor on the part of the musicians seem to be the biggest problems here. When I incorporate “non-organ” instruments, it’s flute, clarinet, violin, cello, guitar (usually finger-picked rather than strummed) --not at all irreverent when they’re played appropriately. I don’t think there’s any real case that these are “secular” instruments.

But I still maintain the problem is largely in the writing and execution of the music. I’m sure adherents of Palestrina caused shock among those who advocated only plain chant. I think after all, it’s a judgement call, and what we need to work on most is our judgement.

Patches - I’d like to buy you a pint sometime.

(And you are right about Palestrina.)

 

[lvschant]

Patches,

Out of curiosity, are you using any Gregorian chant or polyphony at your parish? If so, details please? I’m always curious about how the work toward improving liturgical music is going at other places.

Janet.

 

[patches]

Patches,

Out of curiosity, are you using any Gregorian chant or polyphony at your parish? If so, details please? I’m always curious about how the work toward improving liturgical music is going at other places.

Janet.

Actually, I am planning on introducing chant in the coming year.
I’m going to do it VERY gradually, so as not to “shock” the parish.
A nearby priest took a “bull in the china shop” approach, and succeed only in filling the pews in neighboring parishes. (to paraphrase the famous conundrum . … .“if an Ave Maria was sung on a deserted island, and there was no one to hear it. . . .” Polyphony is very beautiful music, and although I appreciate it as art & would considering using it on occasion, in view of the demographics of our area and the simple folk who make up our parish, I doubt it would be very well received.

 

[PaixGioiaAmor]

Actually, I am planning on introducing chant in the coming year.
I’m going to do it VERY gradually, so as not to “shock” the parish.
A nearby priest took a “bull in the china shop” approach, and succeed only in filling the pews in neighboring parishes. (to paraphrase the famous conundrum . … .“if an Ave Maria was sung on a deserted island, and there was no one to hear it. . . .” Polyphony is very beautiful music, and although I appreciate it as art & would considering using it on occasion, in view of the demographics of our area and the simple folk who make up our parish, I doubt it would be very well received.

What are the demographics and define “simple folk”.

 

[patches]

What are the demographics and define “simple folk”.

Demographics - blue collar, mostly working class, only a small percentage educated beyond high school

“Simple folk” - unsophisticated, (in a good way) reverent in manner, tending to be suspicious of any pretension or ostentation
I meant the term as a mostly complimentary description, and certainly not a detraction of any sort. (I grew up in the parish, and have been a member all my life)

Is there a point in your asking the question?

 

[lvschant]

On another forum, I saw a posting by a DoM who was also trying to (very gradually) add a bit of chant to the music repertoire of his small-town and rural parish. He said one of the most effective and easy changes he made in the short run was to eliminate the so-called “Great Amen” so popular in many of the new Mass settings (Mass of Creation, for example). Instead, after the priest’s chanted “Through him, with him…” the congregation, led by a cantor simply sang the chanted A-men. It starts immediately moving the idea of the singing as a huge (Broadway-type production) Amen – which seems to draw attention away from the Priest’s chant – to a simple and reverent Amen.

After that, using the Jubilate Deo booklet that is freely available online is really easy. At our parish, before we started the schola, they had been singing the chanted Agnus Dei for a couple of years during the Lenten season… the chanted simple Kyrie that is in many modern hymnals is also an easy thing to add…

Do you have training in the chant notation and in directing it? There are many wonderful courses being offered this summer around the country…

The great thing about chant is that it doesn’t take a huge number of voices and is relatively simple to sing for those who haven’t sung in four-part choirs before. Sometimes the ‘trained singers’ are more problematic in a schola than those with training… it is so very hard to get the highly trained (sopranos particularly) to sing straight tone and eliminate the operatic vibrato.

Good luck… Janet.

 

[brotherhrolf]

I have been a member of my cathedral parish choir for 25 years. When I started back in 1983, we still sang the Asperges or Vidi Aquam before Mass as well as other chants and motets. In 1984 we got a new rector who said no more Latin. He brought in a new organist and a new choir director (an Episcopalian who is now an Episcopalian priest (female). In came the 1940 Episcopalian hymnals which had translations of the standard Latin chants.

For years we chanted Sing My Tongue the Savior’s Glory on Holy Thursday instead of Pange Lingua. For me, it was like taking a shower with a rain coat on. English motets from the Renaissance are lovely but my little English Catholic self remembered the struggle of William Byrd and all those who composed for four voices for Masses celebrated in secret. My little Irish Catholic self recalled that my ancestors had to attend Mass along hedge rows and couldn’t sing for fear of attracting fatal attention. This may not be an issue for those who do not have such ancestry but it was for me.

In 1992 we celebrated our 200th anniversary. We had the Cardinal Archbishop of Lyon, France present. We had the Bishop of Salamanca, Spain present. The Cardinal Archbishop celebrated the Mass but departed from the “script” at the end of Mass and gave the Apostolic Blessing in Latin. What a lame response from the assembled priests, congregation, and choir.

There were only four of us in the choir who knew the responses and we were so floored to hear something so unexpected that our response was less than adequate. But it was a huge wake up call.

Out went the 1940 Episcopal hymnal. For several years we alternated between English and Latin verses for the Pange Linqua. But today, Deo gratias ite Deo gratias, we sing the Vexilla Regis on Palm Sunday, the Pange Lingua on Holy Thursday and the Vidi Aquam on Easter. Not to mention that all the suceeding sequences are sung in Latin too.

Motets? Yes. In Latin. Chants? Yes. As choral preludes. Often we sing the chant (Ave Maria) and follow it up with a motet (e.g. Arcadelt’s Ave Maria).

It can be done, y’all. And then you’ll have folks who will come up to you after Mass and say “thank you, I haven’t heard that in years. Why don’t you do more?”

 

[PaixGioiaAmor]

Demographics - blue collar, mostly working class, only a small percentage educated beyond high school

“Simple folk” - unsophisticated, (in a good way) reverent in manner, tending to be suspicious of any pretension or ostentation
I meant the term as a mostly complimentary description, and certainly not a detraction of any sort. (I grew up in the parish, and have been a member all my life)

Is there a point in your asking the question?

My point in asking was to determine what you meant. You see, quite often I’ve found that there is a notion that the more uneducated or immature (children) are not able to sing chant or find it too difficult to sing. Such a notion has often proved, at least in my experience, to be false.

We recently taught our grade school the chanted Agnus Dei. This is a pretty big departure from their former liturgies that usually included “Lord, I Lift you name on high”. There was initially some concern about the kids picking up the latin - but they have done so very easily, and you should hear them chant.

Also, in a former parish I used to be the director at, we had a choir that could sing only two part harmony, and that was on a good day. I found chant to be a great way to sing truly “good” music without having to use SATB or even SAB music. They picked up on the chant wonderfully, were challenged by the mandate to sing in perfect unison, and the result was some truly good music coming out of a small and older choir that previously had not been thought capable of producing music of any magnitude.

So, while you may want to tred with somewhat careful steps (because any change can often be a shock), I wouldn’t worry too much. You may very well find that they take to the chant much better than you thought.

 

[brotherhrolf]

I sang chant in a children’s choir in third grade lo those many years ago. We only sang one Mass a month but the good sisters taught the entire school to sing chant and worked a little harder with those of us who wanted to sing in the choir. It is easy for kids to learn Latin and chant. Please give it a shot.

 

[patches]

On another forum, I saw a posting by a DoM who was also trying to (very gradually) add a bit of chant to the music repertoire of his small-town and rural parish. He said one of the most effective and easy changes he made in the short run was to eliminate the so-called “Great Amen” so popular in many of the new Mass settings (Mass of Creation, for example). Instead, after the priest’s chanted “Through him, with him…” the congregation, led by a cantor simply sang the chanted A-men. It starts immediately moving the idea of the singing as a huge (Broadway-type production) Amen – which seems to draw attention away from the Priest’s chant – to a simple and reverent Amen.

After that, using the Jubilate Deo booklet that is freely available online is really easy. At our parish, before we started the schola, they had been singing the chanted Agnus Dei for a couple of years during the Lenten season… the chanted simple Kyrie that is in many modern hymnals is also an easy thing to add…

Do you have training in the chant notation and in directing it? There are many wonderful courses being offered this summer around the country…

The great thing about chant is that it doesn’t take a huge number of voices and is relatively simple to sing for those who haven’t sung in four-part choirs before. Sometimes the ‘trained singers’ are more problematic in a schola than those with training… it is so very hard to get the highly trained (sopranos particularly) to sing straight tone and eliminate the operatic vibrato.

Good luck… Janet.

Thank you for the insight! The approach you describe is exactly what I have in mind. The Kyrie is where I plan to begin. I’ll need to gain the cooperation of our pastor, (which is not a slam-dunk). If we start modestly, though, I think I can chart a gradual (and proper for that matter course that’ll restore chant to it’s place of honor, while also preserving the neck of the music director. There are a couple hard line folks (an organist who started when Moses was pastor among them) who are going to resist any attempt to go back to what they consider to be the “bad old days,” but I’d rather face their wrath now that have to explain the whole affair to St. Peter later. I’ve seen Jubilate Deo online, and I agree that’s a great way to introduce things.
I don’t see any pressing reason to learn chant notation, as it can be expressed as modern notation. Thanks for the tips!

 

[patches]

My point in asking was to determine what you meant. You see, quite often I’ve found that there is a notion that the more uneducated or immature (children) are not able to sing chant or find it too difficult to sing. Such a notion has often proved, at least in my experience, to be false.

We recently taught our grade school the chanted Agnus Dei. This is a pretty big departure from their former liturgies that usually included “Lord, I Lift you name on high”. There was initially some concern about the kids picking up the latin - but they have done so very easily, and you should hear them chant.

Also, in a former parish I used to be the director at, we had a choir that could sing only two part harmony, and that was on a good day. I found chant to be a great way to sing truly “good” music without having to use SATB or even SAB music. They picked up on the chant wonderfully, were challenged by the mandate to sing in perfect unison, and the result was some truly good music coming out of a small and older choir that previously had not been thought capable of producing music of any magnitude.

So, while you may want to tred with somewhat careful steps (because any change can often be a shock), I wouldn’t worry too much. You may very well find that they take to the chant much better than you thought.

I’m not at all worried about chant’s difficulty, either for my children or the adults. I’ve been around long enough to see the disconnect often between education level and intelligence I’ll be dealing with resistance to change issues, (i.e. my concern for taking it slow)
My choir has the ability to handle very complex music, and the simplicity of chant will be no problem for them. In fact, most will no doubt look at chant as a step backward with regard to singing “good” music, (and in one sense they have a point). I personally love the simplicity and oneness that chant expresses, but I know not all are going to share that point of view, no matter how long we take to get used to it.

I agree that it’s a good idea to involve the children; mine have been singing in parts for some time, and they also make a very nice unison.
No matter what, it's going to be an adventure!

 

[lvschant]

Patches…

It certainly sounds like you are on the right track… I hope you do get support from your pastor. As for the modern notation, I agree that much of the music you would want to use starting out can be found in modern notation… however, getting the proper understanding of the ‘how’ to sing it is more than just the notes… I can’t urge you strongly enough to get some training in the chant notation and the understanding of the neumes. Until you study it, you don’t know what you don’t know (does that make sense?). I find that some classically trained musicians (who have no education in the chant notation) think it makes no difference whether it is in modern or chant notation… I think that is wrong. It makes a big difference in the understanding of how it should flow. It does take a bit of time to get to the point that you can pick up any piece of chant and sight-read it well. Because of that, you may be reluctant to get into it. However, if you personally start learning it now (even if you use modern notation with the little bit you implement in the next year or so), it will make a huge difference to you in years to come, as you may want to branch out and expand the chant.

As for the organist being rather negative on the idea… when our schola sings, we do not use any accompaniment and it works out just fine. At the Masses with the other choir or just a cantor, the organist plays. In my opinion… unaccompanied is the way to go if you can… depends to some degree on the strength of your cantor or choir at the outset.

Janet.

 

[lvschant]

Brotherhrolf…

What a great story you have to tell about the cycle you went through musically… glad to hear things are clicking back into place in your cathedral… our parish is also in LA – but in the north.

Janet.

 

[deSalingAway]

Patches

The “good Dr.” also stated that the Mozart, Bach, and Schubert Mass pieces were also appropriate.

He made the point that the trumpet is an instrument which inspires a sense of great pomp and royalty, the tympani, a commanding thunder illustrating power and presence.

These and similar instruments are connected, in our minds, to the Divine, or they have certain qualities about them which point to the Divine. However, a trumpet used to play a jazz piece during Mass would be contrary to this line of thinking, and would distract from the holy with its secular nature.

 

[benedictgal]

I am afraid that we’ve strayed too far from the OP. If there are two songs that need to be retired pronto, they are Were You There and The King of Glory.

With all of the magnificent and solemn hymns that the Church has in her vast sacred musical treasury, why these two songs pop up during this time of year is hard to understand. Palm Sunday and the Triduum should have music of dignity and solemnity that best conveys the sacred mysteries unfolding before our very eyes. Hymns such as All Glory, Laud and Honor, O Sacred Head Surrounded, Pange Lingua, Sing My Tongue the Savior’s Triumph, What Wondrous Love is This, Where Charity and Love Prevail, and At the Name of Jesus (Worship III version).

At least, to our music director’s credit, we finally got to hear All Glory, Laud and Honor for our English Masses.

However, the music for the Spanish Masses is abysmal. There does exist a Spanish version of All Glory, Laud and Honor, but, of course, because OCP doesn’t have it as their default Palm Sunday hymn, we get something like “Hosanna”, which sounds more like something you would hear at a Tejano/Ranchera concert.

Unfortunately, many music directors take OCP’s liturgical workbook as some sort of bible that they must adhere to religiously and blindly follow it. Having suffered through OCP, I can tell you that they have missed the mark on several occasions with their musical selections, especially for the fourth and fifth Sundays of Lent. Perhaps OCP should be retired.