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rpp
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I am very sorry. I did not mean to imply that would be a bad thing. I humbly ask for your forgiveness.
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rpp
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You can’t? Hmm… I wonder of I should forward this thread to my former pastor.Also, there should be not only a Church ruling, but a Federal law against any hymns that involve drum solos, synthesizers, signing, and yes, guitars. Don’t get me wrong, a guitar is a great instrument for playing songs like “Hotel California,” but “logic” dictates that if you can’t play Hotel California during Mass, then you can’t play the guitar there either!
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benedictgal
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Of course, you probably can’t play “Stairway to Heaven” either.You can’t? Hmm… I wonder of I should forward this thread to my former pastor.
Incidentally, I was driving back to College Station from Houston and I heard “Tusk” by Fleetwood Mac. I had heard this song a jillion times before, but, there was something about it that was vaguely and eerily familiar. Then, it dawned upon me (as the USC Trojan Marching Band was chiming in their part): it sounded exactly like “They’ll Know We are Christians”!
Makes me wonder if Mick Fleetwood had a hand in writing that hymn. :bigyikes:
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Guitar
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Granted, but that’s why I put the word logic in quotations as I was not quite being serious in my comment about guitars; if I offended you, I appologize.
Not offended at all, but thank you. I was pulling your leg, mostly, should have added a smiley. (Just for the record, Guitar also plays organ and a few other things.)
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Guitar
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I think we’ve had this conversation before, but Western music is full of conventions. Chord progressions, melodic phrases, underlying rhythms recur in all genres. The string backing in Johnny Tillotson’s Judy, Judy reminds me of the bergamesca in Respighi’s Ancient Airs and Dances. JSB’s Jesu Joy has the same rhythm as an Irish slip jig. Ralph McTell’s Streets of London has the same basic chord progression as Pachelbel’s Canon in D. Etc etc. The fact that A reminds you of B doesn’t of itself give either piece a quality rating.Of Incidentally, I was driving back to College Station from Houston and I heard “Tusk” by Fleetwood Mac. I had heard this song a jillion times before, but, there was something about it that was vaguely and eerily familiar. Then, it dawned upon me (as the USC Trojan Marching Band was chiming in their part): it sounded exactly like “They’ll Know We are Christians”!
Makes me wonder if Mick Fleetwood had a hand in writing that hymn. :bigyikes:
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benedictgal
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The retirement list should also include everything in both editions of OCP’s Spirit and Song! Both volumes, including Glory and Praise, should be consigned to some liturgical equivalent of the Raspberry Awards (those dubious distinctions they give for worst movie, worst actor and worst actress).
Bob Hurd, the SLJ and David Haas should also be retired.
Bob Hurd, the SLJ and David Haas should also be retired.
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Brother_John
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So, here we go again, with another self-righteous bashing of anything “new” in the Church by the good ol’ traditionalists.
If it happened after Vatican II, it MUST be BAD
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Joannm
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Michael Joncas happens to be a brilliant theologian and you many be surprised that he truly LOVES traditional music. I took a course with him on Theology and the Arts and his knowledge of the history of Christian music is amazing. We did a lot on Gregorian chant as well as other traditional types of music. I also have heard many of his lectures and attended a workshop of his on singing the psalms. If all you know of him is his composition On Eagles Wings, then you obviously don’t know much about him. (He is also a great conversationalist at dinner, and generous as he paid the check)
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idrum677
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So, here we go again, with another self-righteous bashing of anything “new” in the Church by the good ol’ traditionalists.
If it happened after Vatican II, it MUST be BAD
I’m not saying that at all and that wasn’t the point of my original post. I’ve known nothing but Novus Ordo and happen to like it.
My point was that there is so much liturgical music that is just over-played! Music directors need to actually learn new music (the horror!). I would welcome some new compositions being used in Mass and I certainly would enjoy a revival of the old hymns, chants, and polyphony.
:harp:
I tend to feel that the music from the 70’s & 80’s is past its prime and there need to be a renewal. I’ve looked at the Mass setting for WYD 08. We need more of that.
:newidea:
There is room in the Liturgy for the new and the old…let’s just take a break form the over used.
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VociMike
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It’s more a question of percentages. What percent of music written in the last 40 years and heard regularly in Catholic churches will be looked upon in 500 years as a valued part of the “treasure of inestimable value” that it the musical tradition of the Church?So, here we go again, with another self-righteous bashing of anything “new” in the Church by the good ol’ traditionalists.
If it happened after Vatican II, it MUST be BAD
1% would be optimistic, IMHO.
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VociMike
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Well, at least half, according to Fr. Richard John Neuhaus of “First Things”
firstthings.com/article.php3?id_article=2662
(Go to “Singing the Lord’s Songs”)
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Guitar
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Correctamvndo.
Actually, many music directors have no trouble, attitudinally or otherwise, learning new music. It doesn’t fill them with horror.
But you need to get your team and the congregation to learn it too.
When your team incorporates people of minimal ability who don’t want to learn/need to be spoon-fed everything/ say they will learn new material by date X and then do not but just don’t tell you, your carefully-planned program for introducing new material can fall down in a heap. New stuff then either isn’t introduced or is half-taught, inconsistently at that, so the new item falls into disuse because it never gets a good congregational response.
IMO the way to introduce new material is to have the music team present it in a consistent manner at all Mass times for say four weeks, even with a short congregational rehearsal 10-15 mins before Mass, depending on the piece and parish habits. Thay way everyone hears it no matter what Mass they go to and they get a few weeks’ reinforcement.
Then, of course, it is hard to judge when a congregation feels something is overplayed. I often ask people whether they think X or Y is overused, as they go to one weekend Mass whereas I may have played something for two or more Sunday Masses and a wedding and three funerals in a week, so naturally my perception differs from theirs.
It can and should be done; I’m just pointing out it isn’t always a simple matter of the director not wanting to learn new material.
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Guitar
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I agree with his assessment of Sing Lustily and With Good Courage - one of my favourite CDs and one I have used in small workshops - but I can guarantee that many folk who otherwise agree with Fr Neuhaus says would instantly dismiss it as “noisy and irreverent”. Well, it must be rubbish, it’s church music with no organ or choir.
I’m encouraged he gives it a mention - it’s nice to read commentary from people who can see past externals and realise it takes more than blanket rules about instrumentation to fix the problem.
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Margarite
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The reason we want these “blanket” rules, is not because we think that they would solve the whole problem, but rather because we think that they would really help in the process of solving this problem.
Organs and beautiful music help the faithful to worship and praise God. I have no problem with music since Vat II, if someone wrote a beautiful hymn that could be played on an organ, well, then I would say it should go in the Adoremus Hymnal. As I said before, every 10 years new beautiful hymns should be added to the Adoremus Hymnal so that it could become a collection of the most beautiful hymns known to the Catholic Church. Now hymns should only be approved after being examined and proved to say nothing against CC teachings.
Songs indoctrinate people, and the Catholic Church should not allow people to be indoctrinated with stuff that is not in agreement with Catholic Church teachings.
Yours Through Our Lady,
Margarite
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Guitar
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Unfortunately, Margarite, in many many cases, it will do no such thing. In my parish, for example, if you banned guitar and piano tomorrow, you would get exactly the same repertoire as before, and you would actually remove the most competent musician in the parish who BTW is the only one pushing to keep traditional hymns in the repertoire and looking for ways to get chant up and running again. I personally cannot think of an instance where a blanket rule on instrumentation would promote the kind of church music you would like to or get rid of the music you would like to - and I get around a lot of parishes over a very wide area. Education is needed. Sooooo many people who play music in church know diddly-squat about music, they are not passionate music appreciators and sometimes are only there because Fr knows they had piano lessons at school and has press-ganged them, and until you can get the penny to drop, many “organists” too will play the music you want to see stamped out. It’s certainly the case where I come from. Sitting on the organ bench instead of picking up a guitar confers no automatic enlightenment on the player. I once thought that regularly playing an organ would inspire one to learn about the instrument and its repertoire, registration etc, even if only because it is a frustrating instrument to play if you don’t know anything about it. But I can honestly say that I am the only person I know who has gone down that track. Everyone else I know (aside from my professional friends) just muddles along at the same level at which they came to the instrument.
True, but it doesn’t have anything to do with instrumentation.
(Just as an aside, the CD Fr Neuhaus praised has fiddle, clarinet, double bass, side drum, recorder, guitar, bassoon … it is recorded as a performance disc, not as a recommendation for what to do next Sunday, but it is all good robust music and text and these instruments are in the hands of good musicians … Fr Neuhaus can obviously see that, unlike some who pass out on the fainting couch at the very notion that there can actually be good music that doesn’t incorporate an organ.)
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pnewton
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This is a good idea for a thread. I think some people missed the point, though. For example, one poster listed 28 songs. If you have 28 songs which are being used all the time, you have worse problems than selection, like, length of Mass.
Seriously, how can 28 songs be used all the time? Some one stated we retire whole hymnals??? How can whole hymnals be used all the time. Obviously if a whole hymnal is being used, then rotation of songs is not an issue.I made a spreadsheet of songs we used this year for a sax player who needed to know what key we play in. I was surprised that we had 110 different songs we used. I also know that I missed several that are in our missalette for seasonal use and not the hymnal. While I understand the desire for change, I put the brakes on a lot of change to 1-4 new songs a year. I believe one can add so many new songs that the laity feels lost more often than not. On the other hand, most I add are more of the traditional hymns or Latin hymns, because that is our weakest link.
Here is my technique for diversity. I call it a laundry pile method. I have all my songs in binders that I pull out and use in a smaller binder for Mass. After my last Mass, I place the songs in a stack to be refiled. Now here is the trick. I do not re-file the songs. I let the stack build up for months and pull songs from my main binders, unless I have to have a specific hymn. That way I do not recycle the same hymns too often and never unawares.
Lent presents more specific issues as Lenten songs are more limited in number and I refuse to do the rather bizarre “Tree of Life.”
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Phemie
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Diverse dreck is just as bad as repeated dreck. Not saying that’s what you use, just saying. And just because we have hymnals doesn’t mean that we use more than 20% of said hymnal.This is a good idea for a thread. I think some people missed the point, though. For example, one poster listed 28 songs. If you have 28 songs which are being used all the time, you have worse problems than selection, like, length of Mass.
I made a spreadsheet of songs we used this year for a sax player who needed to know what key we play in. I was surprised that we had 110 different songs we used. I also know that I missed several that are in our missalette for seasonal use and not the hymnal. While I understand the desire for change, I put the brakes on a lot of change to 1-4 new songs a year. I believe one can add so many new songs that the laity feels lost more often than not. On the other hand, most I add are more of the traditional hymns or Latin hymns, because that is our weakest link.
Here is my technique for diversity. I call it a laundry pile method. I have all my songs in binders that I pull out and use in a smaller binder for Mass. After my last Mass, I place the songs in a stack to be refiled. Now here is the trick. I do not re-file the songs. I let the stack build up for months and pull songs from my main binders, unless I have to have a specific hymn. That way I do not recycle the same hymns too often and never unawares.
Lent presents more specific issues as Lenten songs are more limited in number and I refuse to do the rather bizarre “Tree of Life.”
While your desire for diversity is admirable, if you take hymns out of circulation for months how are people supposed to assimilate them and make them their prayer?
If you introduce a new hymn, how often do you play it before you take it out of circulation? One Sunday, 2? 3? Playing it just once and then not playing it again for 2 months means it’s always new to the congregation and that can be more than a little frustrating especially if you don’t read music and have to learn it by ear.
No I don’t want to sing “Praise to the Lord, the Almighty” at every Mass for 3 months (or Morning Has Broken at every daily Mass for 4 months as we did recently because the priest liked it), but there has to be a happy medium between recycling the same hymn every Sunday for 3 months and only singing a song once every 6 months.
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patches
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I’m at a loss to understand as well. What to contributes to anything becoming a “classic” is that it is better and outlasts the weaker writing of it’s time. One only need look at some old hymnals to see some pretty lousy verse and uninspiring melody that (thankfully) didn’t survive the test of time.So, here we go again, with another self-righteous bashing of anything “new” in the Church by the good ol’ traditionalists.
If it happened after Vatican II, it MUST be BAD
Barring any instrument other than organ is a bad idea (I play the organ and love it, —just not for everything)
True, a lot of contemporary composers are big on “relevance” and and sorely lacking in theology. I also agree that the pop music banality needs to be eradicated. But I’m not mad at the piano because Barry Manilow wrote songs on it. When it comes to expression, in some ways the organ doesn’t even come close to many other instruments. Appropriately used, they can add wonderful support and occasionally even lead. Seeing an entire church reverently singing “Adoramus te Domine” (Taize) during a eucharistic procession, accompanied only by a fingerpicked guitar is all the proof I need. What’s needed is music that has good text, is reverent, and appropriate to the task.
My best friend is a drummer, but his skins will never see the inside of our church. But he also plays tympani, hmmmmm. . My point is, making sweeping generalizations about such things is not a good idea.
Don’t get me wrong, I agree with the most of the sentiments expressed about the need for change. But the problem is almost entirely with the writing. Theological and “sing-ability” vetting by the magesterial powers-that-be is sorely needed. e.g.: the verses of “Be Not Afraid” are largely scriptural, but has anyone EVER heard a congregation capable of getting the rhythm right? What in the world was that composer thinking? But I must respectfully disagree with the “organ only” crowd. Don’t blame the poor instruments for what people are doing to them. If we really want to be traditional, we should align ourselves with those who claimed that newfangled and most profane of instruments, the pipe organ, signaled the entrance of Satan and impeding doom for the church.
(Which apostle was it again that played the organ for the last supper?. . .) Except for dogma and doctrine, things do and should change. Our problem with regard to Liturgical music was we forgot to add “for the better.”And we must not forget the “different strokes” angle: our 80 year old (very accomplished) organist would have a seizure if I told her we were going back to singing only strophic hymns and Gregorian Chant. (it really hurts to know an elderly lady is more “hip” than me) This is not an easy problem, and won’t have a simple answer. Be we must be careful to remember that we might be in the minority until people see how much better good music will be for mass. If the change is too radical or too fast to be absorbed by the rank and file, look out. A steady tug on the rope will beat a jerk when it comes to reforming our music.
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idrum677
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I agree. I have no problem with other instruments as long as they do not take away from the sacredness of the Mass. For the major feasts/solemnities we have anywhere from 3 to 6 musicians. The m-d usually has a string quartet, trumpet, flute, timpani (me), etc.
I made the original post and I never intended this to be a debate on new vs old or organ vs other instruments. I just feel that we as catholics can be musc more creative in our music than using the same songs over and over. :banghead:
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pnewton
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Introducing new hymns is an exception. Obviously I will use a new hymn often for two or three months, if it is well received. If it falls flat after a few times, I cut and run. As far as what constitutes dreck, there is little common agreement, but that is not what this thread is about. As far as what constitutes a happy medium, that is the balance I strike. I do not expect everyone to agree with my choices and frequency, but I do aim to maximize participation in my choice and how frequent I use hymns. There are some who have told me they would like “You Are Near” every week, but I can not please them entirely without making others go batty.
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