Catholic/Lutheran common prayer for 500 yr anniversary reformation

[awsiukiewicz]

How can this be ? I read the template (on this site) describing a detail the plans for the commemoration of the Protestant Reformation. In part it sounds as thought WE as
"Catholics are aplogizing for what happened. No one can deny the disinforamation surrounding this time in history but I thought that the Church felt although Luther’s arguments (theses) had valid points but felt that the Church would have been better served in Luther had affected change from within. Please feel free to correct me, seriously. I admit I have never been comfortable with ecumenism and anyone denying that were Protestants invited to take part in revising the Liturgy to make it 'more palatable for Protestants should do some research. My question is am I the only one on this site just just mildly conerned about this…Book of Common Prayer…common Communion. It Holy Communion is offered to Protestants albeit Lutherans I will do some serious relection. any thoughts ? p.s. If this has been already addressed on CA I apologize. Pax

 

[dmar198]

How can this be ? I read the template (on this site) describing a detail the plans for the commemoration of the Protestant Reformation. In part it sounds as thought WE as
"Catholics are aplogizing for what happened.

I read it too, and didn’t get that impression. There is a call for forgiveness for sins committed on both sides. That’s pretty standard stuff that goes all the way back to the 1500s.

No one can deny the disinforamation surrounding this time in history but I thought that the Church felt although Luther’s arguments (theses) had valid points but felt that the Church would have been better served in Luther had affected change from within.

That seems reasonable. I didn’t see anything in the document to the effect that that’s not true.

Please feel free to correct me, seriously.

One thing that could use correction is: if you think something is wrong with a document, it might be good to be more specific. A specific quote might help.

I admit I have never been comfortable with ecumenism

Try to learn the positive things the saints have said about ecumenism. Seeing it within the tradition of the Church might help you become more comfortable with it. This link might help: Ecumenical Outreach Before Vatican 2.

anyone denying that were Protestants [are] invited to take part in revising the Liturgy to make it 'more palatable for Protestants should do some research.

I am not familiar with this claim. Can you give more details?

My question is am I the only one on this site just just mildly conerned about this…Book of Common Prayer…common Communion.

I am not aware of any proposals to give Lutherans Communion.

[If] Holy Communion is offered to Protestants albeit Lutherans I will do some serious relection. any thoughts ? p.s. If this has been already addressed on CA I apologize.

Jimmy Akin discussed the possibility of Lutheran intercommunion in this post. See especially the section titled “A matter for experts.” Akin points out that it’s not entirely true that Lutherans cannot receive Communion. In some cases, they can. “One could ask whether it would be theologically possible to modify the Code so that danger of death or grave necessity isn’t required for Protestants who share the Church’s faith in these sacraments, allowing such Protestants to receive them on terms like those that presently apply to the Orthodox. … That’s a delicate question, and it would require consultation and deliberation among experts.” source

I would like to know more specifics about your struggles in order to know how to react.

 

[Pulvis]

How can this be ? I read the template (on this site) describing a detail the plans for the commemoration of the Protestant Reformation. In part it sounds as thought WE as
"Catholics are aplogizing for what happened. No one can deny the disinforamation surrounding this time in history but I thought that the Church felt although Luther’s arguments (theses) had valid points but felt that the Church would have been better served in Luther had affected change from within. Please feel free to correct me, seriously. I admit I have never been comfortable with ecumenism and anyone denying that were Protestants invited to take part in revising the Liturgy to make it 'more palatable for Protestants should do some research. My question is am I the only one on this site just just mildly conerned about this…Book of Common Prayer…common Communion. It Holy Communion is offered to Protestants albeit Lutherans I will do some serious relection. any thoughts ? p.s. If this has been already addressed on CA I apologize. Pax

You are not alone my freind.

 

[OldYoungGuy]

You are not alone my freind.

Certainly not. This is very disturbing.

 

[dmar198]

Anybody care to quote some disturbing lines? Suspicious ones?

 

[Origen52]

What is most disturbing is that the Swedish Lutheran church stopped being Christian a long time ago. anglican.ink/article/belief-virgin-birth-optional-extra-new-swedish-archbishop-declares

 

[Genesis315]

Anybody care to quote some disturbing lines? Suspicious ones?

I think the prayers generally can be read in an orthodox way, but the problem is we’re supposed to be praying them together with Lutherans, and the respective interpretations we have to each give them to make them acceptable would be unconscionable to the other side (if we are both sincere in our beliefs). It’s the same problem as with certain parts of the “Joint Statement on Justification” which the Church criticized in its “Official Response.” It’s relativistic and misleading to pray these prayers together.

For example, take this equivocal prayer:
Common Prayer:

Thanks be to you O God for the many guiding theological and spiritual insights
that we have all received through the Reformation. Thanks be to you for the
good transformations and reforms that were set in motion by the Reformation
or by struggling with its challenges. Thanks be to you for the proclamation
of the gospel that occurred during the Reformation and that since then has
strengthened countless people to live lives of faith in Jesus Christ.

Many of the “theological and spiritual insights” received by Lutherans are heresy to Catholics–Catholics can’t be thankful for those. Likewise, the insights Catholics received were more precise explanations of a whole variety of dogmas as formulated by the Council of Trent, many of which Lutherans will not be thankful for. The same goes for the “transformations and reforms” or what is meant by the last sentence. Our interpretations of these things are diametrically opposed.

Take also the joint confession of sins perpetuating division. The blameworthy things Catholics did/do are considered sins by our Church which we should repent of (abuse of indulgences, disobeying the commandments and evangelical counsels, rash judgment, lack of charity, etc.). The blameworthy things of the Reformers and current Protestants include the same but also ways of thinking that are fundamental aspects and dogmas of their religion and create the real, substantial barriers to true unity–doctrines that depart from the faith. If these doctrinal differences didn’t exist, not matter what other sins we committed , we would all be united in Christ’s one Catholic Church.

 

[dmar198]

I think the prayers generally can be read in an orthodox way, but the problem is we’re supposed to be praying them together with Lutherans, and the respective interpretations we have to each give them to make them acceptable would be unconscionable to the other side (if we are both sincere in our beliefs). It’s the same problem as with certain parts of the “Joint Statement on Justification” which the Church criticized in its “Official Response.” It’s relativistic and misleading to pray these prayers together.

For example, take this equivocal prayer:

Many of the “theological and spiritual insights” received by Lutherans are heresy to Catholics–Catholics can’t be thankful for those. Likewise, the insights Catholics received were more precise explanations of a whole variety of dogmas as formulated by the Council of Trent, many of which Lutherans will not be thankful for. The same goes for the “transformations and reforms” or what is meant by the last sentence. Our interpretations of these things are diametrically opposed.

Take also the joint confession of sins perpetuating division. The blameworthy things Catholics did/do are considered sins by our Church which we should repent of (abuse of indulgences, disobeying the commandments and evangelical counsels, rash judgment, lack of charity, etc.). The blameworthy things of the Reformers and current Protestants include the same but also ways of thinking that are fundamental aspects and dogmas of their religion and create the real, substantial barriers to true unity–doctrines that depart from the faith. If these doctrinal differences didn’t exist, not matter what other sins we committed , we would all be united in Christ’s one Catholic Church.

Thank you for making a good case for your position and for citing examples. I think that is a good way to dialog and make progress toward the truth.

Regarding the equivocal prayer, I don’t think it’s equivocal. Take this prayer as another example: “Thank God for the teaching on justification in St. Paul’s Letter to the Romans.”

I think a Catholic and a Lutheran could pray that prayer together. They have differences about what Romans teaches, but they both know Romans is true and can be thankful about that.

Similarly, about the Reformation, I think Catholics and Lutherans can both be thankful in the way the text discusses. We have differences about which things to be thankful for, but we can both be thankful for the things it mentions: theological and spiritual insights, transformations and reforms, and the proclamation of the Gospel.

I think similar considerations apply to the joint confession of sins. I think the part you are referring to is the one that says: “We confess our own ways of thinking and acting that perpetuate the divisions of the past.” If my understanding is correct, that is a good prayer. I don’t think it’s equivocal because I don’t think it says different things to Catholics and protestants. They might think of different things they’ve done that perpetuate divisions than we do, but that can vary on an individual level as well: the sins I’ve committed against unity might not be the same as the sins you’ve committed against unity, and that doesn’t make the prayer equivocal for us. Neither must it make the prayer equivocal for Catholics and protestants in general, in my opinion.

I agree that ambiguity is bad, but I don’t think the parts you’ve identified are ambiguous. At least no more than any other sentence.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

As a priest who has worked on this issue for so many decades now, I look forward with great anticipation to co-presiding with one of my Lutheran counterparts at one of the joint commemorations for the 500th anniversary of the Reformation. For me, it will be one of the most special moments of my priesthood.