N
NewCatholic1207
Guest
The following is the transcript of a discussion I had with my cousin on Facebook. She attends a Baptist church and is Sola Scriptura in her beliefs. What I am looking for is a critique of my apology. Any (name removed by moderator)ut would help.
Thanks in advance and God Bless…
MY COUSIN:
…That passage of scripture (1 Timothy 2:11-14) is very difficult for today’s woman to live. We have the ‘equal’ thinking of our century going for us. Our pastor preached the whole book of Timothy last year going through each passage verse by verse and when he got to this section he asked us to “please not kill the messenger”. lol In the end there was a family that left because they didn’t like the stance that the church took on the women’s role in leadership positions.
As for the Mary issue. I think that she was very blessed, the Bible calls her blessed but, I don’t believe that she was a disciple. The Webster definition is: one that teaches doctrine. I think that the verses that you listed show her character but they don’t mention any other role in Jesus life except for that of his mother. The definately don’t don’t show her teaching doctrine.
I have many Catholic friends and it’s always a lively debate when we get on the subject of religion.
ME:
Thanks for getting back to me. I too really was enjoying the conversation. I have a couple of things for you to consider.
What you just illustrated in your story about the family leaving your church is exactly the problem I have with Protestantism in general. A lack of teaching authority. If you don’t like what the Pastor is teaching move on OR start your own church. That’s not what Christ wanted. He said so himself, in Jn 17:21: “that they may all be ONE(emphasis added); even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee”. Christ gave the teaching authority to Peter and the Apostles and by extension, their successors and that teaching has been consistent for over 2000 years. Even the Orthodox believe as Catholics do regarding Mary (with some minor variations), some would say that they have an even higher regard for her. They call her “Theotokos” (God bearer) as did the early Greek speaking Church. My point is this, since the Reformation, just over 500 years, there are over 33,000 separate and distinct Protestant denominations, ALL teaching the “truth” as inspired by the Holy Spirit. How can this be? Isn’t there only ONE truth? Is the Holy Spirit schizophrenic? Or are some humans simply mistaken?
Below is the actual definition of “disciple” copied from the Merriam-Webster online dictionary:
1: one who accepts and assists in spreading the doctrines of another: as a: one of the twelve in the inner circle of Christ’s followers according to the Gospel accounts b: a convinced adherent of a school or individual.
Before continuing, please note that I DO draw a distinction between disciple and Apostle. Christ had many disciples while on earth (not to mention the billions since his Ascension), not all held positions of authority or were “teaching”. There is no insistence in that definition of “teaching”. But it does say “accepts and assists in spreading”. Isn’t that what Mary did? Don’t you consider yourself a disciple? Aren’t all Christians supposed to teach others by the way they live their lives? Like the hymn says “…they will know we are Christians by our love…” St. Francis of Assisi said, “Preach the Gospel at all times and when necessary use words.”.
Lastly, consider this point. This is one of the points that weighed heavily on me during my conversion and while I was discerning the true Church.
How old is the United States of America? almost 233 years old. How old was the Church before there was a closed canon of Scripture? Around 400 years old. Now I obviously mean no disrespect to the Bible by saying this, but what did the early Christians do for 400 years without a complete canon of Scripture OR their own personal Bibles? Do you realize that the Letter to the Hebrews and the book of Revelation (among others) in the New Testament were hotly debated in the early Church? This gets at the root of the problem with Protestantism (especially in America). Protestants have the Bible (well not all of it, still missing seven books, we can get into that later) but they’ve lost the context in which the Canon was given to us. The very context in which the Christians of the first 400 years of the Church learned it. The canon was settled by a Church Council, Catholic Bishops discerning by the power of the Holy Spirit what books should and should not be included in the canon of Scripture. The context that the Scriptures need to be understood in is Sacred Tradition (capital T). That is how the early Church understood it.
The bottom line is this, Christ gave us his Church. His Church gave us the complete and inspired canon of Scripture. This is where a lot of Protestants have the order completely backwards. The Bible is from the Church not the other way around.
Let me know what you think about what I’ve said here, but I am particularly interested in what you think about the early Church.
Thanks in advance and God Bless…
MY COUSIN:
…That passage of scripture (1 Timothy 2:11-14) is very difficult for today’s woman to live. We have the ‘equal’ thinking of our century going for us. Our pastor preached the whole book of Timothy last year going through each passage verse by verse and when he got to this section he asked us to “please not kill the messenger”. lol In the end there was a family that left because they didn’t like the stance that the church took on the women’s role in leadership positions.
As for the Mary issue. I think that she was very blessed, the Bible calls her blessed but, I don’t believe that she was a disciple. The Webster definition is: one that teaches doctrine. I think that the verses that you listed show her character but they don’t mention any other role in Jesus life except for that of his mother. The definately don’t don’t show her teaching doctrine.
I have many Catholic friends and it’s always a lively debate when we get on the subject of religion.
ME:
Thanks for getting back to me. I too really was enjoying the conversation. I have a couple of things for you to consider.
What you just illustrated in your story about the family leaving your church is exactly the problem I have with Protestantism in general. A lack of teaching authority. If you don’t like what the Pastor is teaching move on OR start your own church. That’s not what Christ wanted. He said so himself, in Jn 17:21: “that they may all be ONE(emphasis added); even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee”. Christ gave the teaching authority to Peter and the Apostles and by extension, their successors and that teaching has been consistent for over 2000 years. Even the Orthodox believe as Catholics do regarding Mary (with some minor variations), some would say that they have an even higher regard for her. They call her “Theotokos” (God bearer) as did the early Greek speaking Church. My point is this, since the Reformation, just over 500 years, there are over 33,000 separate and distinct Protestant denominations, ALL teaching the “truth” as inspired by the Holy Spirit. How can this be? Isn’t there only ONE truth? Is the Holy Spirit schizophrenic? Or are some humans simply mistaken?
Below is the actual definition of “disciple” copied from the Merriam-Webster online dictionary:
1: one who accepts and assists in spreading the doctrines of another: as a: one of the twelve in the inner circle of Christ’s followers according to the Gospel accounts b: a convinced adherent of a school or individual.
Before continuing, please note that I DO draw a distinction between disciple and Apostle. Christ had many disciples while on earth (not to mention the billions since his Ascension), not all held positions of authority or were “teaching”. There is no insistence in that definition of “teaching”. But it does say “accepts and assists in spreading”. Isn’t that what Mary did? Don’t you consider yourself a disciple? Aren’t all Christians supposed to teach others by the way they live their lives? Like the hymn says “…they will know we are Christians by our love…” St. Francis of Assisi said, “Preach the Gospel at all times and when necessary use words.”.
Lastly, consider this point. This is one of the points that weighed heavily on me during my conversion and while I was discerning the true Church.
How old is the United States of America? almost 233 years old. How old was the Church before there was a closed canon of Scripture? Around 400 years old. Now I obviously mean no disrespect to the Bible by saying this, but what did the early Christians do for 400 years without a complete canon of Scripture OR their own personal Bibles? Do you realize that the Letter to the Hebrews and the book of Revelation (among others) in the New Testament were hotly debated in the early Church? This gets at the root of the problem with Protestantism (especially in America). Protestants have the Bible (well not all of it, still missing seven books, we can get into that later) but they’ve lost the context in which the Canon was given to us. The very context in which the Christians of the first 400 years of the Church learned it. The canon was settled by a Church Council, Catholic Bishops discerning by the power of the Holy Spirit what books should and should not be included in the canon of Scripture. The context that the Scriptures need to be understood in is Sacred Tradition (capital T). That is how the early Church understood it.
The bottom line is this, Christ gave us his Church. His Church gave us the complete and inspired canon of Scripture. This is where a lot of Protestants have the order completely backwards. The Bible is from the Church not the other way around.
Let me know what you think about what I’ve said here, but I am particularly interested in what you think about the early Church.
