Catholic Marrage vs Gay Marrage

[tonild]

Is it possible this Gay marrage could end the church marrage. With Laws about to pass in new york, and probably san fransisco, Would we be sued because we refused to Marry a Gay couple? or if a church rents out a building and would not rent to a Gay couple?

We have seen in some cities Catholic charities had to end adoptions, because we would not put children into Gay homes. So would this happen with marrage as well? And I hear of worse stories in Canada.

 

[kbwall]

Catholics can still refuse to give divorcees re-marriages, so I see no reason why we couldn’t still have the right to refuse gay marriage.

On that note though, has anything of this kind actually happened in the states that do allow gay marriage?

 

[tonild]

i beleave there was a methodist church, had a wedding gazibo, Agay couple wanted to use it but the church said no. The couple then sued the church. I don’t know what happened there.

 

[roads152]

Any given state can legalize gay “marriages” but such a law can not be invoked against a person or group of persons who would not allow such to take place in his/her or their private property.
Owners of private properties, church buildings convents, monasteries, etc. included, have inherent rights and control over such properties and those rights and control are well recognized by capitalist democratic countries.
For as long as we are talking about the United States of America and places within its jurisdiction, there seems nothing to worry about proliferation of gay marriages encroaching into the premises of the Catholic Church.
In the Philippines, gays openly dressing like women were prohibited to join religious activities like May Flower Festivities in the Catholic Church. The government of that nation was silent about it.

 

[Patrick_Cox]

Any given state can legalize gay “marriages” but such a law can not be invoked against a person or group of persons who would not allow such to take place in his/her or their private property.
Owners of private properties, church buildings convents, monasteries, etc. included, have inherent rights and control over such properties and those rights and control are well recognized by capitalist democratic countries.
For as long as we are talking about the United States of America and places within its jurisdiction, there seems nothing to worry about proliferation of gay marriages encroaching into the premises of the Catholic Church.

Indeed. And even if the law did entitle someone to sue the Church (or a particular Catholic diocese/church premises) for not marrying a gay couple, in no way does this mean the Church better shape up and agree to marry gay couples!

After all, “marriage” is by Church definition a Holy Union between a man and a woman. The marriage that secular society speaks of between 2 men or 2 women is not a marriage - it may be a form of legalized union - but it is most definitely not a marriage. And if the Church or any of us in it are to be persecuted for standing up for this position, then so be it.

Bottom line - as and where there may be a conflict, Church law always trumps secular laws and constitutions.

 

[Robertanthony]

A homosexual union “blessed” in a Catholic church would IMO be the ultimate moral recognition/approval that the gay community seeks. Will some try to make it happen? Probably. If so, will they use the judicial system? Very likely. Of course the Church law overrides secular laws, but it could get ugly (the Church/church could be penalized financially, fiscally and in other ways) Boy I’m glad the Catholic Church is there as a stronghold against a total moral debacle.

 

[catholictiger]

Is it possible this Gay marrage could end the church marrage. With Laws about to pass in new york, and probably san fransisco, Would we be sued because we refused to Marry a Gay couple? or if a church rents out a building and would not rent to a Gay couple?

We have seen in some cities Catholic charities had to end adoptions, because we would not put children into Gay homes. So would this happen with marrage as well? And I hear of worse stories in Canada.

if this happened it would be horrible, but I don’t think our government can prevent the Catholic Church for doing a religious practice.,Marriage. This would be a violation of the first amendment.

so even if gay marriage becomes legal, the state can’t prevent a church from marrying people.

I just hope the courts see eye to eye with me.

 

[Corki]

Any given state can legalize gay “marriages” but such a law can not be invoked against a person or group of persons who would not allow such to take place in his/her or their private property.
Owners of private properties, church buildings convents, monasteries, etc. included, have inherent rights and control over such properties and those rights and control are well recognized by capitalist democratic countries.
For as long as we are talking about the United States of America and places within its jurisdiction, there seems nothing to worry about proliferation of gay marriages encroaching into the premises of the Catholic Church.
In the Philippines, gays openly dressing like women were prohibited to join religious activities like May Flower Festivities in the Catholic Church. The government of that nation was silent about it.

The rights to those properties have some limits. Churches have been sued for refusing to let same-sex couples use their church halls for receptions. I don’t think it is such a stretch to think that an activist couple would sue a Catholic Church for not allowing a wedding to take place in the Church itself. Most parishes allow a couple to supply their own priest for a wedding, sometimes a relative of the bride or groom. What’s to stop a same-sex couple from enlisting a renegade priest to preside over their “marriage” ceremony and trying to force the issue with a parish?

I think that parishes are going to have to give their facilities use policies thorough review and tighten up the wording to prevent such an opening.

But to the OP, my “guess” is that the push from the activists will be to say that a Church that does not allow same-sex unions is not eligible for tax exemptions.

 

[tonild]

Thak you all. It is getting difficult out here in California. It seems the only rights people care about is Gay rights. I find it sad that Cathlic charitie had to stop adoptions in some places. I can not bring my nephews to San Fransisco any more because I am afraid of what they may see.

 

[tonild]

Any given state can legalize gay “marriages” but such a law can not be invoked against a person or group of persons who would not allow such to take place in his/her or their private property.
Owners of private properties, church buildings convents, monasteries, etc. included, have inherent rights and control over such properties and those rights and control are well recognized by capitalist democratic countries.
For as long as we are talking about the United States of America and places within its jurisdiction, there seems nothing to worry about proliferation of gay marriages encroaching into the premises of the Catholic Church.
In the Philippines, gays openly dressing like women were prohibited to join religious activities like May Flower Festivities in the Catholic Church. The government of that nation was silent about it.

Would this include Knights of Columbas halls. The one my father attends rents the hall for weddings, could they denigh a same sex couple

 

[Newbie2]

While there will be attempts at “forcing” the Church to perform such “gay marriages”, it will never happen.

All it would take is for a priest to interview the “couple”, conclude that they are not fit to participate in the sacrament (which they will never be, as a gay couple) and deny them the sacrament. Then the government would have to start ruling on and changing canon law, and if that were to ever occur we’d see an uprising of the Catholic faithful like the Crusades.

Sure, penalties could be imposed, but they cannot ever “force” the Church to recognize any such sham marriages.

Relax, it ain’t gonna happen, not in the USA.

 

[catholictiger]

Thak you all. It is getting difficult out here in California. It seems the only rights people care about is Gay rights. I find it sad that Cathlic charitie had to stop adoptions in some places. I can not bring my nephews to San Fransisco any more because I am afraid of what they may see.

the secularization of this country is so bad. I hope one day this will change for the better, I think the youthful part of the Catholic Church could change things. We can only hope.

 

[Glen_Ellen]

i beleave there was a methodist church, had a wedding gazibo, Agay couple wanted to use it but the church said no. The couple then sued the church. I don’t know what happened there.

The Methodist Church (actually, the “Ocean Grove Methodist Camp Conference” or something like that) was forced by the State’s Civil Rights Commission (New Jersey) to allow gay ceremonies in their outdoor worship space, because they had made it available for use by other non-church groups, and therefore fell under the State’s definition of a “public accommodation.”

My law firm is presently defending a similar civil rights complaint brought against the local Catholic Diocese because it would not permit same sex weddings to be conducted on the grounds of one of its retreat centers. The homosexual activists’ argument is that since the Church has allowed the center to be used by non-Catholic groups, it must also allow homosexual groups to use the facility for meetings and gay weddings.

One upshot of all this may be that churches can no longer allow their properties to be used by any non-church group, e.g., Boy Scouts, AA, because they will be deemed to be public accommodations and then must allow all groups in.

 

[Glen_Ellen]

Would this include Knights of Columbas halls. The one my father attends rents the hall for weddings, could they denigh a same sex couple

Yes, this is a very present danger, if your state has legalized civil unions or same sex marriage, and the hall is open for rent to all who apply (rather than, say, just being limited to use by Catholics for Catholic wedding receptions). Then it may be deemed to become a “public accommodation” under the state’s anti-discrimination laws, and must allow all to use it. As you will see in my other post, we are currently fighting that battle in my state.

You should contact an attorney, or contact your local diocese and ask the diocese’s attorneys to take a look at the issue and give advice to the churches and other Catholic organizations. My firm represents the Church here in this State and at this point, because of the State’s laws, we have advised that facilities like parish halls should only be used by Catholic groups.

 

[bjryman]

The issue may well be based upon the State’s licensing of a Church to perform legal weddings. In other words, all the State Government and Federal Government financial and other benefits could be witheld if the Church’s license to perform secularly legal marriages was revoked.

Thus, the Church could still perform a religious marriage which woud seal the union in the eyes of the Church and God, but not be a legal marriage in the eyes of the State.

That is the power the State has. It might just happen in, say, northern California in a worst case scenario

 

[roads152]

If a state shall no longer recognize Matrimony as valid and legitimate civil marriage by withdrawing licenses given to priests, the choice will then be between a union of life and love recognized by God through the Church and a union recognized by an institution whose power and authority is emanating from the people.
It seems that thinking individuals will not allow a scenario with those options. They can always do something to prevent such a scenario because those running said institution are doing so at the pleasure of the people.
We have elections and can always replace government officials every other year or every four years, at most.

 

[kmuestwin]

the secularization of this country is so bad. I hope one day this will change for the better, I think the youthful part of the Catholic Church could change things. We can only hope.

You have more faith in Catholic youth than I do. As a 21 year-old Catholic I hear a lot more of “The Church should change to allow (gay marriage/contraceptives/female priests.)”

Instead of “The Church teaches…”

It worries me.

 

[catholictiger]

You have more faith in Catholic youth than I do. As a 21 year-old Catholic I hear a lot more of “The Church should change to allow (gay marriage/contraceptives/female priests.)”

Instead of “The Church teaches…”

It worries me.

being in south Louisiana, really gives me hope. There are so many faithful youth in this area, in the dio of baton rouge there could be 2 new seminarians, in the dio of new orleans I hear up to 10 When I go to the youth conferences down here, I always have hope on the numbers of committed Catholics. Maybe my faith is misplaced, I have found that some of those catholics who are very committed in high school, when they get to college their faith turns for the worse. But also LSU where I currently go to college (thought not much longer) there are alot of very faithful Catholics.

it seems that there are a good bit of faithful catholics around my area, and very young too. Maybe I’m misreading the situation maybe the situation around me is an exception and things aren’t good.

But i have alot of hope in this generation. I kinda remember JPII having alot of hope in this generation as well. I know he did alot with the youth as the Pope, maybe he is responsible for the things I am seeing IDKk.

 

[bjryman]

You have more faith in Catholic youth than I do. As a 21 year-old Catholic I hear a lot more of “The Church should change to allow (gay marriage/contraceptives/female priests.)”

Instead of “The Church teaches…”

It worries me.

I agree…it is quite sad, but I see a growing number of 25 to 35 year olds taking a supporting view of the Gay Rights agenda like my generation (yep…baby boomers) supported giving women more freedom via birth control. Along with this topic (gays) I definitely see a growing sense that the young see our church as hopelessly lost in many ways…instead of promoting the truth.

Hopefully, this younger generation will be able to sort through all this and separate Church Dogma from other teachings that it does not claim are infallible…just what it means to be a modern day Catholic. I pray that through all their searching…Christ remains in the hearts and minds as the meaning of salvation.

 

[Glen_Ellen]

In terms of restrictions that the government can put on churches performing marriages, it depends on which state you are in. (Partly a matter of history, and whether in the early days of the state’s history marriage was believed to be a civil matter (e.g., those states with Puritan protestant religious heritages), or a church sacrament (e.g., States with a Catholic, Anglican or Lutheran background).)

In my State, marriage is seen as completely a civil matter. It is governed completely by statute, and you cannot perform marriages unless you comply with the State’s requirements. Those who perform marriages in violation of State law (e.g., until recent developments, same sex marriages) could face not only being stripped of the power to marry but criminal prosecution.

In a State like mine, homosexual advocates will say over and over that they are not affecting your church right to restrict marriage to one-man, one-woman. But the fact is the State could easily say you could not perform any marriages unless you also performed same-sex marriages. That is the risk. In other words, although my State cannot technically force a church to conduct same-sex marriages, it could say that you cannot perform any marriages at all unless you also do same-sex marriages.

That is why you will see battles in same-sex marriage legislation over putting “conscience” clauses in the law to allow Christian marriages to continue (e.g., “no minister or church shall be compelled to conduct a same sex marriage ceremony or be punished for refusal to do so”).