Catholic Marriage question

[Paralep]

Hi, I have a few questions concerning marriage.

Me and my fiance are considering getting married in a Methodist church even though we are Catholic.

Does getting married in a Methodist church make us not Catholic anymore and not allowed to return to the Catholic church?

I can explain why, but figured I would see what the answer was first.

Thank you for your help.
P.

 

[1ke]

Me and my fiance are considering getting married in a Methodist church even though we are Catholic.

If you are both Catholic, this is not possible. So, please stop “considering” this and go talk to your pastor about marriage preparation.

Two Catholics are obligated to marry in Catholic form and cannot be dispensed from it to marry elsewhere.

Does getting married in a Methodist church make us not Catholic anymore and not allowed to return to the Catholic church?

It makes you Catholics in a grave state of an irregular marriage. Your attempt at marriage would be invalid and you would not be able to receive the sacraments unti you correct this situation.

So, really, what would be the point? Get married the right way the first time. Set an appointment with your pastor and start the process.

I can explain why, but figured I would see what the answer was first.

It does not matter why. It cannot be done.

Please go see your pastor.

 

[7armyrugrats]

No, you can’t marry in the Methodist Church if you are both Catholics.

 

[Paralep]

1ke, I will give you the brief story.

Me and my fiance have already pursued getting married in the Catholic church.

We met with the priest, did all the classes etc.

The problem is we do not plan to have children and we do not plan to use NFP.
Thats it in a nutshell.

Since I cant fully embrace NFP I don’t feel like we can get married in the C. Church.

I keep asking myself. Does every Catholic then, before getting married, tell the priest they plan to have children and use NFP. Because if they do, than that means every catholic has and plans to have children if they can and they don’t use artificial birth control. I know that is not the case.

So I am having this dilemma because I don’t want to have to lie. I know it doesn’t matter what everyone else does, but so many catholics are doing just that, lying.

So in order to be truthful I guess my only option is that I will not be a good catholic or not a catholic at all. (if I decide to marry outside the church)

The church will not accept us if we don’t plan to have children and don’t use NFP. There is no grey area.

Do you agree?

P.

 

[agapewolf]

I would recommend that you read up and study about why the church teaches what she does about marriage, sex, and children.

Start with “Theology of the Body for Beginners” and “Good news about sex and marriage” by Christopher West.

 

[1ke]

1ke, I will give you the brief story.

Me and my fiance have already pursued getting married in the Catholic church.

We met with the priest, did all the classes etc.

The problem is we do not plan to have children and we do not plan to use NFP.
Thats it in a nutshell.

A permanent intention against children is an impediment to a valid marriage. This is an essential property of marriage. If you and she reject this essential property it is not possible for you to give valid consent to marriage. So, it is not a matter of the Church refusing you marriage but of it not being possible for you to marry due to the impediment you create by an act of your will.

You won’t be any more married if you go through a civil ceremony at a Methodist church or at a courthouse. You will be in a grave state if you move forward.

I suggest counseling with your priest until you come to a point where you can be open to children. Otherwise, you should end your relationship because it cannot lead to marriage.

Since I cant fully embrace NFP I don’t feel like we can get married in the C. Church.

If you have a permanent intention against children you cannot marry, period. “Marrying” elsewhere is no solution as it is not marriage at all.

I keep asking myself. Does every Catholic then, before getting married, tell the priest they plan to have children and use NFP. Because if they do, than that means every catholic has and plans to have children if they can and they don’t use artificial birth control. I know that is not the case.

A couple cannot have a permanent intention against children. I would say that your situation-- excluding children entirely-- is pretty rare. “Most” Catholics do indeed intend to have children. Therefore it is not an issue of invalid consent.

So I am having this dilemma because I don’t want to have to lie. I know it doesn’t matter what everyone else does, but so many catholics are doing just that, lying.

I do not think “so many Catholics” are lying-- a real permanent intention against children is pretty rare.

You are not called to marriage if you permanently exclude children. I know this may be difficult to accept, but it seems you have not receive proper education in the purpose of marriage. I am very sorry you are closed to children and hope you will change your mind.

So in order to be truthful I guess my only option is that I will not be a good catholic or not a catholic at all. (if I decide to marry outside the church)

I would hope you would change your disposition towards children.

You will always be a Catholic. Marrying outside the church does not change that. It does, however, put you in a very grave situation. You cannot marry validly and cannot convalidate your marriage with a permanent intention against children.

I encourage you to get counseling with your pastor to help you see that marriage may simply not be the path for you if this remains the case. Attempting to marry anyway will put you in a very grave state.

The church will not accept us if we don’t plan to have children and don’t use NFP. There is no grey area.

Do you agree?

No, I do not agree. You place yourself in this position by excluding an essential property of marriage. You simply cannot marry if this is the case. It would not be a valid marriage as you are unable to give valid consent. The Church teaches the objective reality of marriage-- which God created and ordered to the procreation and education of children. The secular world teaches something different about marriage. But it is not the truth.

I sure hope you can resolve this issue between you regarding children or truly accept the truth about marriage and realize if you remain in permanent exclusion of children then you are not called to be married.

 

[The_Bucket]

I keep asking myself. Does every Catholic then, before getting married, tell the priest they plan to have children and use NFP. Because if they do, than that means every catholic has and plans to have children if they can and they don’t use artificial birth control. I know that is not the case.

As 1ke said, a permanent intention against children is an impediment to marriage and would invalidate any attempt at marriage even if you moved forward in the Catholic form. Any good priest would flat-out refuse to marry you if you told him that both of you have the permanent intention to never have kids. You’ve got to be open to life.

As for birth control, that’s a different matter. Priests will not refuse to marry people who use artificial birth control because, again, that’s a different situation. That’s “merely” grave sin, not an impediment to a valid marriage. And part of a good pre-Cana program is talking about how to get schooled in NFP and how the Church is against contraception.

That said, I absolutely believe that 85-90% of American Catholics use contraception in their marriages. But that sin can be resolved with confession, repentance and stopping the behavior. Having a permanent intention against children invalidates any attempt at marriage from the very start.

Put it this way: Plenty of people have sex before marriage. This is grave sin. Does this grave sin invalidate attempts at marriage? No. In the same way, use of contraception does not invalidate an attempt at marriage. Closing the door to children via personal intention, however, does. There’s nothing wrong with marriages between people who are sterile due to age or medical condition. There is no fault on them for those conditions. You are shutting the door to children; the door has not been closed for you. You are the one closing it and locking it. If you are the one to close it, you are also closing the door on marriage.

 

[Paralep]

Thank you for your answers.

If god’s plan for me was to have children, shouldn’t I feel the urge to have them?

I am not trying to create an argument, I just have that question.

Or does the feeling of not wanting to have children mean gods plan is just that he doesn’t wish me to marry. He wishes me to find someone I want to be with (which he has granted me) and love, but not marry?

P.

 

[The_Bucket]

Feelings are that. Feelings. They come and go as they please. Sometimes they are inspired by the Lord and sometimes they are not.

If you mean that you fear having children… I say fear not! As a father, I’ve been there. I was certainly terrified to find out that my wife was pregnant not three months after our wedding day. We married young (at least for this day and age) and I was far from set in my career path. It was a scary time. You’re never “ready” to be a parent. Parenting comes with all kinds of challenges and all kinds of joys.

I suppose the best thing to do is examine why you don’t want to at least potentially share the love you have for your spouse and for God with newly created souls. That is the purpose of marriage. That does not mean that every married couple is blessed with children, but the sacrament of marriage is indeed all about being open to that gift and accepting those gifts if the Lord decides to bless you with them.

If you are merely afraid, then perhaps this is something that should give you pause for reflection. If, however, you simply don’t want the “burden” of children, then perhaps you should take deeper stock of where you are spiritually. The fact that you’re willing to go outside the Church to enter into an invalid, false and simply non-existent “union” should have stopped you short from the start. But now that you’re here, perhaps it’s time for more reflection.

 

[JackieMom]

Thank you for your answers.

If god’s plan for me was to have children, shouldn’t I feel the urge to have them?

I am not trying to create an argument, I just have that question.

Or does the feeling of not wanting to have children mean gods plan is just that he doesn’t wish me to marry. He wishes me to find someone I want to be with (which he has granted me) and love, but not marry?

P.

It means you need further discernment. Why do you think you are unwilling to welcome children? How old are you?

 

[7armyrugrats]

Why do you want to get married if you never want kids? It kind of defeats the purpose of marriage. Is this a common occurrence now? I grew up being taught that the purpose of marriage was to have kids. Even the Protestants I went to school with believed this. When we would sit at the lunch table and talk about life plans, the ones who didn’t want kids never wanted to get married, and those if us who wanted kids planned on getting married. It was just a given fact that if you married, you had kids. The majority of kids in school were Protestant. I grew up in the south, not many Catholics in my hometown. Divorce was common and so were out of wedlock births, but still no one planned to marry if kids were never going to happen. I’m so surprised that as bad as things were when I was young, we’ve come to a point where marriage no longer means anything except a good time with a friend. No wonder people have a difficult time accepting Church teaching on NFP, abortion, gay marriage, premarital sex, and just about everything. We have failed as a society to teach that certain things are sacred.

 

[The_Bucket]

One thing I don’t understand here either… if you want to outside the laws of the Church and enter into an invalid and false “marriage” to avoid being “dishonest” about your intentions to never have children, why get a civil marriage at all? Why not just live together and hook-up and do whatever you want?

If you want to disobey the Church’s teachings and live in grave sin, that is your choice. You are obviously free to do so. Why bother having a piece of paper involved that might just provide problems down the line if you want to divorce or something?

Even today with all the premarital sex (though that’s far from a modern issue) going on, people who get married usually do so because they’re intending to start a family. Yes, people live together and whatnot and go through that period where they’re waiting to have a family while having all the “benefits” of contraceptive sex, but marriage is still seen as the time where people announce “OK, we’re ready for a family now.” Marriage outside of the Catholic form with the intention never to have children (excluding situations of infertility) seems utterly pointless.

Probably because it is, since you wouldn’t actually be married.

 

[1ke]

Thank you for your answers.

If god’s plan for me was to have children, shouldn’t I feel the urge to have them?

I am not trying to create an argument, I just have that question.

Or does the feeling of not wanting to have children mean gods plan is just that he doesn’t wish me to marry. He wishes me to find someone I want to be with (which he has granted me) and love, but not marry?

P.

Urges and feelings do not determine the will. Maybe some counseling to determine the root of your ambivilence towards or rejection of children-- not even sure which it is at this point. Ambivilence is not a permanent intention against children nor is it an impediment to valid marriage.

Regarding the post above with contraception, while it is true this is a sin that can be confessed and discontinued and doesn’t create an impediment per se, a permenant use of contraception-- and refusal to give a spouse access to non-contracepted sex-- DOES. So, contraception is a serious issue that could create an impediment to valid marriage.

 

[The_Bucket]

permenant use of contraception-- and refusal to give a spouse access to non-contracepted sex-- DOES. So, contraception is a serious issue that could create an impediment to valid marriage.

Wouldn’t this have to be conceived of prior to the marriage? As in someone goes into the marriage with the intention to be open to life and then changes his or her mind a few years into the marriage (which has yet to yield children) and gets sterilized. I guess that’s a case where it’s not a clear-cut impediment but could be one and a tribunal would have to look at it.

 

[CatholicRaven]

Let me ask you this: If you got pregnant shortly after you married, what would you do?

If you changed your mind in the future about having children, what would your fiance do, or if he changed his mind, what would you do?

Just because you find someone you like being with, does not necessarily mean you’re supposed to marry him. There’s a lot more to marriage than, “we like hanging out with each other.” What happens when you’re arguing, and you don’t want to be in the same room with each other?

It’s not so much that there needs to be an “urge” to have children, as it is an openness to having them. It’s more a willingness to give yourself completely–fertility included–to your spouse and to follow God’s Will. It sounds like you and your fiance are saying, “I want to get married, but I don’t care about God’s Will for me or you, and I don’t want to build a family or a future with you. I just want to marry you.”

Why do you want to get married? What do you think marriage IS? (Seriously, you two should discuss what you think marriage is/should be. It’s an important discussion.)

 

[Paralep]

I am 40.

I was never sure i would have the patience for children. I guess I figured if i wanted to have children i would feel that way. The thought of having a life to take care of that was so fragile frightened me. I know through life that I have risen to the challenges, but that doesn’t necessarily help.

I cant explain why I don’t feel like everyone else. Sometimes i look at children with their families and wonder if what I feel is wrong. Maybe I will regret it down the road and all of a sudden feel the need to have children of my own. But I cant change that and I don’t want to FORCE myself to feel another way because people think it’s wrong or weird.

Bucket said: "Why not just live together and hook-up and do whatever you want? "

To me marriage is a way to show someone how much you love them and that you want to be with them and only them for the rest of your life. I know (now) thats not the catholic definition and if it is it’s such a small part it’s not enough.

How can something like love and the need to show someone that love by professing to be with them forever no matter what through marriage be wrong. To me it’s not wrong, but to the church it’s not the reason for it.

To the church I can show that person that love by just being with them forever but not through marriage and “till death do us part”?

P.

 

[akela135]

If god’s plan for me was to have children, shouldn’t I feel the urge to have them?

I find it helps if you look at this question from a historical prespective. Before birth control was invented if a couple never wanted to have children but got married and had normal sexual lives then children showed up anyway.

My own advice from facing this dilema personally was to make a list of every reason I did not want children, and then go down that list one by one and investigate those issues and try and change my mind . This is not something that just goes away the next day it is a time consuming and often difficult thing to get around. I also took to reading all sorts of parenting websites. I read all the blogs and articles parents were writing about their struggles, joys, and successes. Afterall this work I have largely changed my mind, although it was not easy and that is not to say days don’t go by where I panic and say “impossible, I can’t ever do this!” but most days I feel like I’d be alright.

The other thing to do is, like others suggested, look at what would happen if you found that less than a month after your wedding, you were pregnant. Would you be okay with that? Would you and your fiance be willing to embrace parenthood and raise your child? If so then really you have a preference for zero but you are willing to have children. Afterall, people who are completely opposed will rush out and get sterilized or have abortions in case of “surprises”.

I would evaluate why you feel the way you do and then set a wedding date down the road and in the future. Work on changing your mind, and then evaluate where you are every single month. It is a good habit to get into. The bottom line is, you really do have the power to change your mind on this issue. It won’t be easy but if you want to then you can. If you change your mind and can embrace being “open” then you will be able to marry. God sends everyone their own personal struggles and crosses and this might just be yours. I will be praying for you!

 

[Paralep]

akela135, thank you for your words.

Can I ask what made you feel like you needed to “try and change your mind”

If i am pulling your words out of context i apologize and am not trying to twist things.

Yes I would be ok finding out if we were having a child. I would be extremely scared, but accept things as they come.

We discussed that with the priest, but that doesn’t “clear” us of skirting the churchs thoughts on marriage.

P.

 

[The_Bucket]

To me marriage is a way to show someone how much you love them and that you want to be with them and only them for the rest of your life. I know (now) thats not the catholic definition and if it is it’s such a small part it’s not enough.

Children are part of the package deal. Or at least the openness to them. Why? Because the sexual act is what separates marriage from all other relationships. And with the sexual act comes the potential for children provided that there are no fertility impediments due to age or other medical issues. That’s the bottom line. Sexual intimacy is what makes marriage, well, marriage, and fertility is part of the package deal that is sexuality.

To the church I can show that person that love by just being with them forever but not through marriage and “till death do us part”?

You can live chastely with someone for the rest of your life and take care of them. It’s not a marital relationship but it’s still love. It’s the Christian love we’re all called to have for one another. That’s perfectly acceptable. But if you want to have a marital relationship, sexuality is part of it and you can’t, by your own intention, separate fertility from sexuality. It’s all or nothing.

 

[akela135]

I would be happy to answer your question. I’m a cradle Catholic and my family has always taken our faith very seriously. When I was growing up I had planned to never marry because I didn’t want kids but when I saw many people marry without having kids (including a handful of catholics) I figured I was taught an outdated church view and that “no kids” was fine. It wasn’t until I met my husband and we actually started to try and marry in the church that I realized they are against “childfree marriages” and that one has to be open to life.

I’ve always been really serious about my faith so I realized I was facing two choices (if I wanted to remain a faithful Catholic). One was to break up and remain single and childless, however I didn’t think I could bare to part with my then fiance. The other option was to get married and have children. The lack of desire for children was something I thought I could change. There are many stories of people who never wanted kids, had them, and are so glad they did. I guess I love my husband so much I did everything in my power to allow me to marry him in the church, including change my mind about having children.

The other things that helped me to decide to change my mind was that I believed that Mary, would understand my feelings and help me overcome them. We are taught the blessed mother had pledge to remain a virgin for the sake of God so I assume she understood this would mean she wouldn’t be a mother and was okay with that. When God announced his will for her was motherhood to Jesus, I’m sure that was somewhat of a suprise to her, but she accepted his will and excelled as a mother. I wondered if God was calling me to motherhood knowing that I would have to deny my own will and accept his and by doing so would grow stronger in my faith. I’ve always admired Mary’s faithfulness and here was a chance in my own life to follow and be faithful as well, I felt that if I let that moment go by with a “no” to God I would forever regret it. So I plunged forward in faith and did everything I could to change my mind so I would go into parenthood with the right attitutude.

Hopefully that makes sense?