Catholic Martyrs vs. Catholic Murderers

[FrankGSmith]

I have a question about Catholic history. Since there is no forum for “history,” this was my best guess for where it should go.

It’s actually two questions:

How many Catholics have been killed because they were Catholic? (Roman persecutions, communist China, etc.)

How many people have Catholics killed because they were not Catholic? (Inquisitions, etc.)

When I tell nonbelieves about all the Catholics who been martyred and persecuted for the faith, they usually respond by saying “The Catholic Church has done far worse.”

That strikes me as ridiculous, but I have no hard numbers to back up my argument. Has anyone seen any hard figures relating to these questions? Before doing the research on my own, I wanted to check whether it had already been done.

 

[Aelred_Minor]

I don’t know if anyone will be able to provide solid numbers. Certainly any numbers would be estimates, not exact figures. Furthermore there is the problem of who to include.

On the Catholic martyrs side, do you count political prisoners in places like China whose faith had something to do with their political activities? Do you count victims of the French Revolution? Do you count soldiers who died in wars like Mexico’s Cristero War? Do you count Ukrainian Catholics who died alongside their Orthodox neighbors in the forced starvation of that country under the Soviets? Do you count Poles killed by the Nazis? Catholics killed in the Medieval expansions of Islam through Asia, Africa, and Spain? The list goes on.

On the Catholic “murders” side, do you count Protestants who really were plotting to overthrow Catholic governments? Do you count Catholics convicted of practicing black magic? Do you count Muslims killed in the Crusades or in the Spanish Reconquista? Do you count atrocities committed by Catholic colonial powers like Spain and Portugal in the New World or the Canary Islands, sometimes despite Church opposition to these? Again the list goes on.

 

[JRKH]

So far as i know there are no “hard numbers” on any of this and that being the case…
It might be valid to ask your friend to provide the “hard numbers” showing that, “The Catholic Church has done far worse.”

That said though - I have never found such discussions to be very fruitful since they deal primarily with temporal history instead of faith.

Peace
James

 

[ProdglArchitect]

I have a question about Catholic history. Since there is no forum for “history,” this was my best guess for where it should go.

It’s actually two questions:

How many Catholics have been killed because they were Catholic? (Roman persecutions, communist China, etc.)

How many people have Catholics killed because they were not Catholic? (Inquisitions, etc.)

When I tell nonbelieves about all the Catholics who been martyred and persecuted for the faith, they usually respond by saying “The Catholic Church has done far worse.”

That strikes me as ridiculous, but I have no hard numbers to back up my argument. Has anyone seen any hard figures relating to these questions? Before doing the research on my own, I wanted to check whether it had already been done.

I don’t really think that there are “hard numbers;” but I will offer you this:

That Catholic Church has -NEVER- killed anyone for “not being Catholic.” In fact, that Catholic Church, to my knowledge, has never actually killed -anyone-. The inquisitions, which are the big “elephant in the room” people try to use to denounce Catholicism through this line of thinking, were not directly sanctioned by the Catholic Church. They were efforts enacted by the governments of the countries they occurred in. The spanish inquisition was just that, an inquisition lead by the Spanish goverment. If I remember properly, their main goal was to kick out the Muslims were left in the country. I direct you here for more information:

The Spanish Inquisition - Catholic.com

As to how many martyrs we’ve had, I can’t even begin to give you a good estimate because the number rises each day. Recently, int he middle-east, a Coptic church service was bombed during worship. Many new martyrs lost their lives that day.

No, the sum of those who have sacrificed for the Church far exceed any wrongdoings people have claimed to be doing in the name of the Church.

 

[St_Francis]

This is the thing about Catholic martyrs: they died for keeping their faith. They died at the hands of people who didn’t believe anything which would keep them from killing, and in some cases, the hands of those whose beliefs mandated them to kill.

And this is the thing about Catholic murderers: *they were going **against **their stated beliefs. *So when people say “The Church murdered someone,” implying that this was an unreasonable killing, it is simply not true. It was either reasonable to kill the person–even the US has the DP for espionage and treason–or it was an UN-Catholic act, contrary to Catholic teaching teaching, committed by a murderer who happened to be Catholic at one point in his life.

 

[JerryZ]

I have a question about Catholic history. Since there is no forum for “history,” this was my best guess for where it should go.

It’s actually two questions:

How many Catholics have been killed because they were Catholic? (Roman persecutions, communist China, etc.)

How many people have Catholics killed because they were not Catholic? (Inquisitions, etc.)

When I tell nonbelieves about all the Catholics who been martyred and persecuted for the faith, they usually respond by saying “The Catholic Church has done far worse.”

That strikes me as ridiculous, but I have no hard numbers to back up my argument. Has anyone seen any hard figures relating to these questions? Before doing the research on my own, I wanted to check whether it had already been done.

The Catholic Church does not use killing as a means of furthering the faith, it has never done it period.
When people quote the inquisition or the crusades they do so, showing an incredible level of ignorance and stupidity.
The inquisition was a tribunal not an executioner.
Only the “State” inflicted and continues to inflict death penalties (Look at the US today), even the crusades where carried out by lay people, the Church made the call to help out the slaughter that had been carried out in Spain and most of Europe by the muslims who were expanding their empires.
Look at islam today if you commit apostasy and change faith to Christianity they will still try to kill you.

 

[tomarin]

I don’t really think that there are “hard numbers;” but I will offer you this:

That Catholic Church has -NEVER- killed anyone for “not being Catholic.”

Eh? What about Jan Hus? He was put to death by the Church for heresy.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

Eh? What about Jan Hus? He was put to death by the Church for heresy.

The Church publicly excommunicated him, and then handed him over to the secular authority, who charged him with heresy and executed him.

Not a Church decision, but the decision of a tribunal. True, he was killed for his actions against the Church, but it was not the Church who called for him to be executed.

 

[St_Francis]

In a Catholic society, a preaching heretic can be very divisive (cf what happened after the Protestants came along).

 

[jcrichton]

I have a question about Catholic history. Since there is no forum for “history,” this was my best guess for where it should go.

It’s actually two questions:

How many Catholics have been killed because they were Catholic? (Roman persecutions, communist China, etc.)

How many people have Catholics killed because they were not Catholic? (Inquisitions, etc.)

When I tell nonbelieves about all the Catholics who been martyred and persecuted for the faith, they usually respond by saying “The Catholic Church has done far worse.”

That strikes me as ridiculous, but I have no hard numbers to back up my argument. Has anyone seen any hard figures relating to these questions? Before doing the research on my own, I wanted to check whether it had already been done.

Hi, Frank G. Smith!

Welcomed to the forum!

…here’s some information I posted on another thread:

“…by the way some people may say that more people died in the name of religion… they’re not telling you the truth. In two thousand years of Christian history the number of people who died in wars of religion is 4.75 to 5 million; that’s little; that’s not good; I’m not commending that; but contrast that with 70 years of communism in which you have as many as 264 million people killed in 70 years vs. 5 million in 2000 years; I mean that’s a big contrast; religion has been an important way of putting the breaks on man’s murderous tendencies while atheism opened the floodgates of murder…”

The program was originially aired on EWTN, Tuesday June 26, 2012… here’s a link to the on-line archieves:

ewtn.com/tv/live/thresholdofhope.asp

…I don’t recall if it was on the same program… but Father Pacwa also mentioned that there was a claim that the Catholic Church during the era of the Spanish Inquisition sentenced to death more people than the total number that were alive during that period in Europe–though I’m not offering much as far as number… I hope this helps to explain to you how non-Catholics view the world outside of reality, as long as the Church is blamed for any evil/error! :banghead::banghead::banghead:

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

I don’t know if anyone will be able to provide solid numbers. Certainly any numbers would be estimates, not exact figures. Furthermore there is the problem of who to include.

On the Catholic martyrs side, do you count political prisoners in places like China whose faith had something to do with their political activities? Do you count victims of the French Revolution? Do you count soldiers who died in wars like Mexico’s Cristero War? Do you count Ukrainian Catholics who died alongside their Orthodox neighbors in the forced starvation of that country under the Soviets? Do you count Poles killed by the Nazis? Catholics killed in the Medieval expansions of Islam through Asia, Africa, and Spain? The list goes on.

On the Catholic “murders” side, do you count Protestants who really were plotting to overthrow Catholic governments? Do you count Catholics convicted of practicing black magic? Do you count Muslims killed in the Crusades or in the Spanish Reconquista? Do you count atrocities committed by Catholic colonial powers like Spain and Portugal in the New World or the Canary Islands, sometimes despite Church opposition to these? Again the list goes on.

…only one note: La Cristiada (Cristeros) were not soldiers trained and aided by Mexican or foreign governments!

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cristero_War

…and as with many issues the Catholic Church is blamed for anything that goes wrong even when she has no military, corporate or financial power to bend the governments of the world or the people who choose to take or not a determinate course of action.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[maximus]

I have a question about Catholic history. Since there is no forum for “history,” this was my best guess for where it should go.

It’s actually two questions:

How many Catholics have been killed because they were Catholic? (Roman persecutions, communist China, etc.)

How many people have Catholics killed because they were not Catholic? (Inquisitions, etc.)

When I tell nonbelieves about all the Catholics who been martyred and persecuted for the faith, they usually respond by saying “The Catholic Church has done far worse.”

That strikes me as ridiculous, but I have no hard numbers to back up my argument. Has anyone seen any hard figures relating to these questions? Before doing the research on my own, I wanted to check whether it had already been done.

How about putting to your opponents the same questions and find the sources they get their information from and you will see how looney their responses will be. As for a tally of Catholics killed for their faith as opposed to those killed for not being Catholics not sure if there is a quick graphic or tally out there. From examining history objectively it is a slam dunk that more Catholics have died for their faith than the resulting deaths by Catholic persecution. Things like the Inquisition and the Crusades are misconstrued by modernist and Anti-Catholics out of convenience.

 

[jcrichton]

Eh? What about Jan Hus? He was put to death by the Church for heresy.

…which Church?

…from what I’ve read, the Church issued condemnation of heretical writings or pronouncements… the person, in this case Hus, is ordered to recant the heresy/ies, when the person refuses (time and time and time again) the Church excomunicates the accused… and as with the Inquisition, the secular government determines what ultimately happens to the person–interestingly enough, in ancient times the Church buildings served both the Church and the secular commnity (save keeping both goods and prisoners) so it could well be thought that the Church some how had the run of the governments of the world.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

In a Catholic society, a preaching heretic can be very divisive (cf what happened after the Protestants came along).

…this is an excellent example… Martin Luther went up against the Church, he was asked to recant his heretical teachigs, he burnt the letter ordering him to the Vatican to recant his herectical stance, then hell broke loose–Luther sought the protection of an anti-Catholic monarch and the rest was history (not Protestant history since they ignore the 300,000+ people that died during the initial confrontation where Protestants (those who supported Luther) vs. Catholic monarchs (not Church’s Bishops or decree or support of such actions) came to a head; still, anti-Catholics hold an ex-Catholic Priest as a hero and denounce the Church as the evil he fought!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Doxus]

I do wonder what the numbers are on the number of Africans who have died from AIDs due to Catholic propaganda about condoms.

 

[jcrichton]

How about putting to your opponents the same questions and find the sources they get their information from and you will see how looney their responses will be. As for a tally of Catholics killed for their faith as opposed to those killed for not being Catholics not sure if there is a quick graphic or tally out there. From examining history objectively it is a slam dunk that more Catholics have died for their faith than the resulting deaths by Catholic persecution. Things like the Inquisition and the Crusades are misconstrued by modernist and Anti-Catholics out of convenience.

…and what is predominantly clear is that Catholics die for their Faith rather than kill others who do not respect/hold the Catholic Faith!

…and often times it is Catholics dying in the hands of the official government or government agents employed for the purpose of destroying everything Catholic, including women and infants–the same cannot be said of the Church actually killing her opponents!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

I do wonder what the numbers are on the number of Africans who have died from AIDs due to Catholic propaganda about condoms.

Doxus, are you sure you are on the right track?

…the Catholic Church teaches that the only true means to eradicating AIDS (Acquired Immune Difficiency Syndrom–which means that it is created/acquired through a specific behavior) is abstinance!

The UN concluded that the only place where the AIDS epidemic has been halted has been where Church teachings about abstinance and marital fidelity has been practiced–still they refuse to promote abstinance and marital fidelity, just like your “kill the poor, sick, and old” president continues to do.

FYI: though I have not researched condoms vs. aids virus here’s a little take from some purported medical sources:

ukcoalition.org/AIDS-Virus/10237.htm
Condoms aren’t safe. In 1993, Dr. Susan Weller of the University of Texas Medical Branch at Galveston reported that an analysis of data from 11 separate studies showed condoms had an average failure rate of 31 percent in protecting against HIV. Dr. Weller reports that “since contraceptive research indicates condoms are about 90 percent effective in preventing pregnancy, many people, even physicians, assume condoms prevent HIV transmission with the same degree of effectiveness. However, HIV transmission studies do not show this to be true. .” Dr. Weller continues, saying “new data indicate come condoms, even latex ones, may leak HIV.”

…given the fact that abstinance does stop hiv/aids, other stds and pregnancy, why do you fault the Church for teaching abstinance and not fault secular/anti-Catholic sources for promoting multiple sex partners and loose morals?

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Doxus]

sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0277953696002584

The consistent use of latex condoms continues to be advocated for primary prevention of HIV infection despite limited quantitative evidence regarding the effectiveness of condoms in blocking the sexual transmission of HIV. Although recent meta-analyses of condom effectiveness suggest that condoms are 60 to 70% effective when used for HIV prophylaxis, these studies do not isolate consistent condom use, and therefore provide only a lower bound on the true effectiveness of correct and consistent condom use.** A reexamination of HIV seroconversion studies suggests that condoms are 90 to 95% effective when used consistently, i.e. consistent condom users are 10 to 20 times less likely to become infected when exposed to the virus than are inconsistent or non-users. **Similar results are obtained utilizing model-based estimation techniques, which indicate that condoms decrease the per-contact probability of male-to-female transmission of HIV by about 95%. Though imperfect, condoms provide substantial protection against HIV infection. Condom promotion therefore remains an important international priority in the fight against AIDS.

Yes, abstinence is effective at stopping transmission of HIV. But so are condoms.

 

[PeaceInChrist]

I dislike when people try to whitewash wrongdoing, so I’ll put it frankly: the Church did have an obvious hand in the Inquisitions (there were many of them throughout Europe in the Middle Ages). Inquisitors were usually Dominican. The Pope and Church leadership were well aware of the Inquisitions. If I’m not mistaken, Inquisitors were actually appointed by the Church, and papal inquisitions were initiated occasionally. The punishments eventually included death, though the Church never technically killed anyone. They handed them over to secular authorities, and when this happened, the punishment was often death.

However, it must be noted that torture and death were rare. Thousands of people did die, but over the course of several hundred years. It’s not as though the Inquisitions killed millions of people, as some Protestants would have us believe. In fact, Protestants persecuted Catholic ‘heretics’ with greater zeal. Catholics throughout Protestant controlled areas were often persecuted for centuries (England’s mistreatment of Ireland comes to mind).

As to martyrs, there have been many. I have no doubt that the numbers are much higher. You must also bear in mind that the Inquisitions did serve a purpose: in a homogeneous Catholic society, heresy was a very real and dangerous threat. Heresy was tantamount to treason. Prominent heretics threatened to completely disrupt society. I’m not saying the ends justify the means (torture), but it could easily be argued that putting obstinate heretics to death was justified. It just isn’t a popular position…

 

[PeaceInChrist]

sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0277953696002584

Yes, abstinence is effective at stopping transmission of HIV. But so are condoms.

Abstinence worked quite well before the sexual revolution. What was the teen pregnancy rate before the sexual revolution? How about after?

And, of course, in perfect-use, condoms can prevent AIDS 98% of the time (so every 1 or 2 people out of 100 will still have a chance of contracting it with each session of intercourse), but again, how often is perfect use a reality? Half of women who get abortions were using birth control of some kind at the time. Doesn’t seem like it works too well in reality, does it? God forbid we try chastity…

“In fact, half of all women getting abortions report that contraception was used during the month they became pregnant”

prochoice.org/about_abortion/facts/women_who.html