Catholic mass unbiblical

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Phillipos

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youtube.com/watch?v=uFjoBFs8dHE

Watch this video and share what you think. The guy won’t enable comments on his video so this is what I think.

Even if I wasn’t Catholic I would argue that Paul doesn’t agree with his thesis. If it was finished then Jesus wouldn’t have needed to resurrect from the dead. Paul said that the resurrection in 1 Cor 15 is the very base of our faith. If he is not risen our faith is in vain and we are to be pitied more then all people.

Why is it that former Catholics think they have this hidden secret knowledge about the Church and her teachings that no one else knows about?
 
The guy doesn’t know what he’s talking about. Argumentative fallacy after argumentative fallacy; bait-and-switch, as well as circular logic.

Not even worth watching.
 
youtube.com/watch?v=uFjoBFs8dHE

Watch this video and share what you think. The guy won’t enable comments on his video so this is what I think.

Even if I wasn’t Catholic I would argue that Paul doesn’t agree with his thesis. If it was finished then Jesus wouldn’t have needed to resurrect from the dead. Paul said that the resurrection in 1 Cor 15 is the very base of our faith. If he is not risen our faith is in vain and we are to be pitied more then all people.

Why is it that former Catholics think they have this hidden secret knowledge about the Church and her teachings that no one else knows about?
Phillipos,

I confess that I haven’t watched the video because it is downloading as I type through my dial-up connection. …sigh… The reason for my response, though, is the fact that you said that Jesus’ work wasn’t finished based on the fact that He resurrected from the dead. Actually, the life giving sacrifice was made on the cross, which finished the work necessary for man’s salvation. Hence, “It is finished.” The resurrection was what proved Christ’s sacrifice to have been accepted by the Father, and the fact that He was “declared to be the Son of God in power according to the Spirit of holiness by his resurrection from the dead.” (Romans 1:4) This explains why Paul says that those who trust in Christ were to be pitied above all others if He hadn’t raised from the dead–He would’ve been proved to be just some liar who claimed outrageous, blasphemous things.

So, my download says that it’ll be done in 40 minutes, but does this guy claim that Jesus’ one time sacrifice was enough to perfect all those for whom it was offered? If so, are you saying that Jesus’ one time sacrifice wasn’t? I ask because I don’t want to say anything speculative, so please let me know. The next time I drop by, Lord willing, I’ll have watched the video, and I’ll be able to contribute more intelligently…
 
Why is it that former Catholics think they have this hidden secret knowledge about the Church and her teachings that no one else knows about?
Code:
 Because someone has "shown them the truth".  These seem to be the same arguments we hear over and over from certain groups using the same snippets of scripture they always use.
We can only hope and pray that through study and prayer he will see what he is teaching is incorrect and come home.
 
Hahn, in his book the Last Supper (mentioned above) goes also into the Eucharist as the fulfillment of the Todah meal.

References:
The Mass of the Early Christians
From Jewish Passover to Christian Sacrifice

The reason the critic mentioned in the OP thinks “it is finished” is against the Catholic mass is because of an inability to understand the perpetual effect of a single sacrifice. The Catholic mass fulfills Malachi 1:11.

The result of the critic’s opinion is due, unfortunately, to a sola scripturist’s contextless examination of “it is finished.” If only he knew what he could receive at a Catholic mass.
 
another person trying to twist everything around. 1. He is using the St. Joseph Baltimore Catechism and not the Catechism of the Catholic Church. St. Joseph material lacks in faith. Let’s see uhh, Our Eucharist is based from the Bible, the prayers, Pater Noster, Ave Maria, Glory Be, Gloria, Nicene Creed, scripture among others is all Biblical as well as Penance.
 
another person trying to twist everything around. 1. He is using the St. Joseph Baltimore Catechism and not the Catechism of the Catholic Church. St. Joseph material lacks in faith. Let’s see uhh, Our Eucharist is based from the Bible, the prayers, Pater Noster, Ave Maria, Glory Be, Gloria, Nicene Creed, scripture among others is all Biblical as well as Penance.
Does it or does it not have an imprimatur as he claims. If so, then a bishop and theologian have said its good to go 🤷
 
In his book, The Lamb’s Supper, author Scott Hahn argues that the entire book of Revelation is an explanation of the mass.

How’s that for being “biblical”?

ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41HEQ9C8TVL.BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_AA240_SH20_OU01.jpg

You can get a snippet of his thought from an article here:

The Eucharist as The Lamb’s Supper

from a talk by Scott Hahn
ewtn.com/faith/teachings/euchc3.htm
That’s interesting, Randy, and I think it would probably be worth reading, but I have heard great explanations of the book of Revelation from a Dispensational viewpoint too; though, I don’t buy their understanding totally. Revelation seems to me to be a book that can easily be twisted to say just about anything you’d like it to say (more so than other passages that some groups try to use to support their theologies).

But, like I said, it’s probably worth looking in to…
 
Phillipos,

I confess that I haven’t watched the video because it is downloading as I type through my dial-up connection. …sigh… The reason for my response, though, is the fact that you said that Jesus’ work wasn’t finished based on the fact that He resurrected from the dead. Actually, the life giving sacrifice was made on the cross, which finished the work necessary for man’s salvation. Hence, “It is finished.” The resurrection was what proved Christ’s sacrifice to have been accepted by the Father, and the fact that He was “declared to be the Son of God in power according to the Spirit of holiness by his resurrection from the dead.” (Romans 1:4) This explains why Paul says that those who trust in Christ were to be pitied above all others if He hadn’t raised from the dead–He would’ve been proved to be just some liar who claimed outrageous, blasphemous things.
Actually, Phillipos got it right. Isn’t our justification necessary for our salvation? If it isn’t the unjustified would be saved as well.

According to Paul, Christ was handed over for our transgressions and was raised for our justification: “Who (by ‘who’ Paul means Christ) was delivered up for our sins, and rose again for our justification.” Romans 4:25.
 
Does it or does it not have an imprimatur as he claims. If so, then a bishop and theologian have said its good to go 🤷
Yes, but the Catechism of the Catholic Church trumps all other Catechisms by the standards of Pope John Paul II, and more binding as it serves as the(underlined in the Catechism) for all future Catechisms. Also the Pope issued the Imprimi Potest for the CCC. St. Joseph products tend to lack in Catholic Doctrine, example the St. Joseph NAB. The CCC is the Catechism of all Catechisms for our Church. The imprimatur means that the book is approved by the Church. The CCC has more authority the St. Joseph Catechism
 
Yes, but the Catechism of the Catholic Church trumps all other Catechisms by the standards of Pope John Paul II, and more binding as it serves as the(underlined in the Catechism) for all future Catechisms. Also the Pope issued the Imprimi Potest for the CCC. St. Joseph products tend to lack in Catholic Doctrine, example the St. Joseph NAB. The CCC is the Catechism of all Catechisms for our Church. The imprimatur means that the book is approved by the Church. The CCC has more authority the St. Joseph Catechism
So, my next question is, “What makes all these confusing teaching sources more reliable than the Bible?”

Also, Kay Cee, that is a good point, and I definitely agree with that. The only problem is that the whole OT sacrificial system was set up so that the sacrifice was what signified the sins being forgiven. This is one thing that points to the fact that Jesus’ actual sacrifice was what washed believers of their sins. The resurrection, though, is what gave God’s “stamp of approval,” if you will, to his sacrifice as being accepted by the Father.

Do you think that the actual sacrifice was for nothing but to kill Jesus in order for Him to be raised? I don’t have the time right now to go to my Bible program to copy and paste, but I would refer you to the book of Hebrews.
 
So, my next question is, “What makes all these confusing teaching sources more reliable than the Bible?”

.
We aren’t saying that the Catechism is more reliable than the Bible. What makes the Catechism so confusing??? The mass amounts of scripture contained in the Catechism??? The various Church documents?? The wide variety of subject that covers??? The fact it is a statement of what we believe right from the Apostles Creed and the Nicene Creed? The Catholic Church bases all of her teachings from scripture and tradition. Tradition is based off of scripture. The Bible is the most reliable text out there (Catholics use Bibles only approved by the Holy See or Conference of Bishops). Catholics believe that the Catechism isn’t superior to the Bible or more reliable.
 
We aren’t saying that the Catechism is more reliable than the Bible. What makes the Catechism so confusing??? The mass amounts of scripture contained in the Catechism??? The various Church documents?? The wide variety of subject that covers??? The fact it is a statement of what we believe right from the Apostles Creed and the Nicene Creed? The Catholic Church bases all of her teachings from scripture and tradition. Tradition is based off of scripture. The Bible is the most reliable text out there (Catholics use Bibles only approved by the Holy See or Conference of Bishops). Catholics believe that the Catechism isn’t superior to the Bible or more reliable.
I feel I should clarify…

When I ask why one would think that there are plural, confusing teaching sources, I actually have more than the CCC in mind. I was about to list a slew of books, but decided against it because you are probably well aware of the volumes that have been written on the interpretation of Roman Catholic documents and councils. The reason that I ask the original question is because of the attacks on Sola Scriptura as a reliable source of how the church can know God and how we ought to conduct ourselves in the world. So, we see that it’s either one book that has been breathed out by God Himself, or it’s a slew of councils and priests and documents, and books written to further explain the councils and other documents, and so on.

The very fact that we are discussing this makes it quite clear that there has been no improvement by abandoning the Bible as the sole infallible rule for faith and practice. And since this is off-topic, I won’t continue with it. I actually was making a passing comment on the irony of the situation; I never meant to go down this road in this thread.
 
Also, Kay Cee, that is a good point, and I definitely agree with that. The only problem is that the whole OT sacrificial system was set up so that the sacrifice was what signified the sins being forgiven. This is one thing that points to the fact that Jesus’ actual sacrifice was what washed believers of their sins. The resurrection, though, is what gave God’s “stamp of approval,” if you will, to his sacrifice as being accepted by the Father.

Do you think that the actual sacrifice was for nothing but to kill Jesus in order for Him to be raised? I don’t have the time right now to go to my Bible program to copy and paste, but I would refer you to the book of Hebrews.
I’m unsure how you get from me merely quoting a Bible verse to “Do you think that the actual sacrifice was for nothing but to kill Jesus in order for Him to be raised?” Of course I don’t think that.

My problem is with your statement “Actually, the life giving sacrifice was made on the cross, which finished the work necessary for man’s salvation.”

However, something else was done for our justification, and that was His rising from the dead; therefore the work necessary for man’s salvation was not finished on the cross. Yes, Jesus said “It is finished” but it seems you’re assuming the antecedent of the pronoun “it” is what is necessary for our salvation.
 
I feel I should clarify…

When I ask why one would think that there are plural, confusing teaching sources, I actually have more than the CCC in mind. I was about to list a slew of books, but decided against it because you are probably well aware of the volumes that have been written on the interpretation of Roman Catholic documents and councils. The reason that I ask the original question is because of the attacks on Sola Scriptura as a reliable source of how the church can know God and how we ought to conduct ourselves in the world. So, we see that it’s either one book that has been breathed out by God Himself, or it’s a slew of councils and priests and documents, and books written to further explain the councils and other documents, and so on.

The very fact that we are discussing this makes it quite clear that there has been no improvement by abandoning the Bible as the sole infallible rule for faith and practice. And since this is off-topic, I won’t continue with it. I actually was making a passing comment on the irony of the situation; I never meant to go down this road in this thread.
In fact the converse is true “accepting the Bible as the sole infallible rule for faith and practice” is both unbiblical and misleading!
 
I feel I should clarify…

When I ask why one would think that there are plural, confusing teaching sources, I actually have more than the CCC in mind. I was about to list a slew of books, but decided against it because you are probably well aware of the volumes that have been written on the interpretation of Roman Catholic documents and councils. The reason that I ask the original question is because of the attacks on Sola Scriptura as a reliable source of how the church can know God and how we ought to conduct ourselves in the world. So, we see that it’s either one book that has been breathed out by God Himself, or it’s a slew of councils and priests and documents, and books written to further explain the councils and other documents, and so on.

The very fact that we are discussing this makes it quite clear that there has been no improvement by abandoning the Bible as the sole infallible rule for faith and practice. And since this is off-topic, I won’t continue with it. I actually was making a passing comment on the irony of the situation; I never meant to go down this road in this thread.
2 Timothy 3:16 (Douay-Rheims is used here) disproves Sola Scriptura

16 All scripture, inspired of God, is profitable to teach, to reprove, to correct, to instruct in justice, 17 That the man of God may be perfect, furnished to every good work.

16 “All scripture,”… Every part of divine scripture is certainly profitable for all these ends. But, if we would have the whole rule of Christian faith and practice, we must not be content with those Scriptures, which Timothy knew from his infancy, that is, with the Old Testament alone: nor yet with the New Testament, without taking along with it the traditions of the apostles, and the interpretation of the church, to which the apostles delivered both the book, and the true meaning of it.

and from the Haydock Bible Commentary

Ver. 16. All scripture divinely inspired is profitable to teach, to reprove, to correct, or admonish, to instruct others in justice, and in the ways of virtue, that thus he who is a man of God, a minister of the gospel, may be perfect and instructed unto every good work. But when our adversaries of the pretended reformation, undertake from these four verses to shew, first, that every ignorant man or woman is hereby warranted to read and put what construction his or her private spirit, or private judgment, suggests upon all places of the holy Scriptures; and secondly, that the Scriptures alone contain all truths which a Christian is bound to believe; or at least, that the Scriptures teach him all things necessary to salvation, without regard to the interpretation and authority of the Catholic Church: I may at least say (without examining at present any other pretended grounds of these assertions) that these consequences are very remote from the text and sense of St. Paul in this place. As to the first, does this follow; the Scriptures must be read by Timothy, a priest, a bishop, a man of God, a minister of the gospel, whose office it is to instruct and convert others, therefore they are proper to be read and expounded by every ignorant man or woman? Does not St. Paul say elsewhere, (2 Corinthians ii. 17.) that many adulterate and corrupt the word of God? does not St. Peter tell us also, (2 Peter iii. 16.) that in St. Paul’s epistles are some things…which the unlearned and unstable wrest, as also the other scriptures, to their own perdition? See the preface to the Gospel of St. John, where reasons are brought for which it was requisite that the Church should put some restraint to the abuse which the ignorant made of reading the Scriptures in vulgar tongues. As to the second consequence, does it follow: every Scripture divinely inspired is profitable for St. Timothy, for a priest, a bishop, a man of God, a minister and preacher of the gospel, to teach and instruct, and conduce to bring both him and others to salvation; therefore they contain all things that a Christian need to believe? &c. Is not every Christian bound to believe that the books in the canon of the New and Old Testament are of divine authority, as in particular these two epistles of St. Paul to Timothy? Where does the Scripture assure us of this? But of this elsewhere. (Witham) — Every part of divine Scripture is certainly profitable for all these ends. But if we would have the whole rule of Christian faith and practice, we must not be content with those Scriptures which Timothy knew from his infancy, (that is, with the Old Testament alone) nor yet with the New Testament, without taking along with it the traditions of the apostles and the interpretation of the Church, to which the apostles delivered both the book and the true meaning of it. (Challoner)

This one of many reasons why Catholics do not believe in Sola Scriptura. Do you have any proof in scriptures that Catholics need to believe in Sola Scriptura like your denomination does??
 
🙂 🙂 This is a most interesting thread…actually the first one I have posted too…as I just joined…and as I stated in my profile…I am not Roman Catholic…I have many friends that are, and I joined this to learn more about their faith, so comments that I make, please…are not intended to be arguementative…that is counter productive…I will say though, that I line up with the gentleman in the you tube.* I have been raised in a fundamental baptist church, and believe the King James Bible as the Word of God.* I guess what I dont understand is where from the Bible does the Catholic church get the mass??* And why is the Bible not sufficient??* I maybe should aske that one in another topic thread??* Im new to this…so I apologize!*
 
…Revelation seems to me to be a book that can easily be twisted to say just about anything you’d like it to say…
This statement means that you reject the video’s contention that the Mass is unbiblical, correct? Because, if the bible can be “twisted” to mean or say what one wishes it to say then it can be seen as expressing the Mass, right?
 
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