Catholic Men: How Do You Percieve Ephesians 5:24?

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Isnt it strange though, that so much of the bible CAN be interpreted in so many different ways, just look at CAF, there are countless threads on people not understanding verses or their context…what does that say about the book as a whole?

If there were such an important literary piece today that caused so much confusion, its very likely the author would set out to correct this, if only to ensure people actually got the intended message.
 
Thank you again for all the answers! I just wanted to share my thoughts on what has been said so far:
  1. When the Bible says “husbands love your wives as Christ loved the Church” it gives husbands a great obligation. Yet wives are commanded to “submit to their husbands in everything” even when their husbands are not loving them as Christ loved the Church. The only time wives may refuse to submit is when the husband commands her to sin. Frankly, there an awful lot of things a husband could command his wife to do that are neither sinful nor loving, and I have a HUGE problem with that.
  2. Moreover, even when the husband is loving, he and his wife may very well disagree on certain personal matters which directly pertain to her body and life. For example, I have heard of husbands who have forbidden their wives to wear make-up, eat certain foods, give birth in a hospital, do certain activities when pregnant or wear certain hairstyles. None of these bans necessarily conflict with a husband’s duty to love his wife as Christ loved the Church (except maybe the home birth), and I find it abhorrent that husbands have the right to give his wife such commands which she must obey under pain of sin. Surely most loving husbands would never do such a thing, and that is something I am very grateful for, but it still concerns me they are allowed to.
  3. I think people hear that husbands must love their wives as Christ loved the Church, think crucifixion, and move on. But what are the deeper implications? The relationship between the Church and God is not a partnership where they decide the rules together, negotiate, take turns making calls on things etc. It is a relationship where God makes all the rules Himself out of love, and the Church must obey them, giving the Church leeway in some undefined areas (such as what fabrics and colors we wear). Furthermore, God punishes the Church out of love, Hebrews 12:6. These parallels don’t translate to into such a pretty picture for marriage. These parallels have given birth to practices like Christian Domestic Discipline. The reason God and the Church can have a relationship like this is because God is perfect, all-knowing, all-loving, etc. The best of husbands, nor the best of wives, possess these attributes. So having wives be subordinate to their husbands as to the Lord, as to the Church is to God, seems incredibly problematic.
  4. It is true the Bible tells spouses to be “subordinate to one another”. However, the fact that the wife is singled out, and specifically commanded to submit to her husband several times, tells me she has a duty to submit to her husband in a way the husband is not required to submit to his wife.
  5. I have never heard before that “submit” was mistranslated and actually means “commit”. That would change everything. I will have to look into that.
 
mark_a said:
I’ve heard on Catholic Radio that the word “submit” used in many translations in this verse would actually be better translated as “commit”.

I’m no translator and know only one language. “Commit” would seem to me to be much less likely to be abused by men.

Just sayin’. . . . . .
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I’m very excited to learn more about this, I appreciate the post!
 
Andrea_Day said:
  1. It is true the Bible tells spouses to be “subordinate to one another”. However, the fact that the wife is singled out, and specifically commanded to submit to her husband several times, tells me she has a duty to submit to her husband in a way the husband is not required to submit to his wife.
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Sure.

But only in the right Christian way as a wife to ones husband not a child to ones parent.

One can say too that Paul is saying that *Christians *are to be subordinate to each other…not just husbands and wives.

There are though differing roles etc in the Church.

The Pope is going to be subordinate to other Christians in a different way than say I am to my Friend.

A child is going to be subordinate in a different way to their parents then to say their friends.
 
Andrea_Day said:
  1. It is true the Bible tells spouses to be “subordinate to one another”. However, the fact that the wife is singled out, and specifically commanded to submit to her husband several times, tells me she has a duty to submit to her husband in a way the husband is not required to submit to his wife.
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Yes.

But to add to that

I recall reading an interesting point in an older work the idea that part of the reason Paul is mentioning what he mentions is that wives can have trouble submitting …but not as much trouble in love and service…while husbands can have trouble loving and sacrificing…so they need to be exhorted to…

The wife too - as a wife is to love her husband - but she does not need to be reminded as much.

The husband may need some reminding…some emphasis…
 
Andrea_Day said:
T.
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One can look to the Magisterium of Pope St. John Paul II and to other Popes along with other sources on the subject.

To give a quote from one Pope from the 1930’s on this subject - written in the language of the day:

"This subjection, however, does not deny or take away the liberty which fully belongs to the woman both in view of her dignity as a human person, and in view of her most noble office as wife and mother and companion; nor does it bid her obey her husband’s every request if not in harmony with right reason or with the dignity due to wife; nor, in fine, does it imply that the wife should be put on a level with those persons who in law are called minors, to whom it is not customary to allow free exercise of their rights on account of their lack of mature judgment, or of their ignorance of human affairs. But it forbids that exaggerated liberty which cares not for the good of the family; it forbids that in this body which is the family, the heart be separated from the head to the great detriment of the whole body and the proximate danger of ruin. For if the man is the head, the woman is the heart, and as he occupies the chief place in ruling, so she may and ought to claim for herself the chief place in love.

Again, this subjection of wife to husband in its degree and manner may vary according to the different conditions of persons, place and time. In fact, if the husband neglect his duty, it falls to the wife to take his place in directing the family. But the structure of the family and its fundamental law, established and confirmed by God, must always and everywhere be maintained intact."

~ POPE PIUS XI

(Vatican website w2.vatican.va/content/vatican/en.html)

Read the above slowly…and a few times …the wife is not as you see noted by the Pope - to obey like a child etc! Or expected to…
 
Bookcat said:
One can look to the Magisterium of Pope St. John Paul II and to other Popes along with other sources on the subject.

To give a quote from one Pope from the 1930’s on this subject - written in the language of the day:

"This subjection, however, does not deny or take away the liberty which fully belongs to the woman both in view of her dignity as a human person, and in view of her most noble office as wife and mother and companion; nor does it bid her obey her husband’s every request if not in harmony with right reason or with the dignity due to wife; nor, in fine, does it imply that the wife should be put on a level with those persons who in law are called minors, to whom it is not customary to allow free exercise of their rights on account of their lack of mature judgment, or of their ignorance of human affairs. But it forbids that exaggerated liberty which cares not for the good of the family; it forbids that in this body which is the family, the heart be separated from the head to the great detriment of the whole body and the proximate danger of ruin. For if the man is the head, the woman is the heart, and as he occupies the chief place in ruling, so she may and ought to claim for herself the chief place in love.

Again, this subjection of wife to husband in its degree and manner may vary according to the different conditions of persons, place and time. In fact, if the husband neglect his duty, it falls to the wife to take his place in directing the family. But the structure of the family and its fundamental law, established and confirmed by God, must always and everywhere be maintained intact."

~ POPE PIUS XI

(Vatican website w2.vatican.va/content/vatican/en.html)

Read the above slowly…and a few times …the wife is not as you see noted by the Pope - to obey like a child etc! Or expected to…
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This is very helpful for me, thank you for posting!
 
Bookcat said:
"This subjection, however, does not deny or take away the liberty which fully belongs to the woman both in view of her dignity as a human person, and in view of her most noble office as wife and mother and companion; nor does it bid her obey her husband’s every request if not in harmony with right reason or with the dignity due to wife; nor, in fine, does it imply that the wife should be put on a level with those persons who in law are called minors, to whom it is not customary to allow free exercise of their rights on account of their lack of mature judgment, or of their ignorance of human affairs. But it forbids that exaggerated liberty which cares not for the good of the family; it forbids that in this body which is the family, the heart be separated from the head to the great detriment of the whole body and the proximate danger of ruin. For if the man is the head, the woman is the heart, and as he occupies the chief place in ruling, so she may and ought to claim for herself the chief place in love.

Again, this subjection of wife to husband in its degree and manner may vary according to the different conditions of persons, place and time. In fact, if the husband neglect his duty, it falls to the wife to take his place in directing the family. But the structure of the family and its fundamental law, established and confirmed by God, must always and everywhere be maintained intact."

~ POPE PIUS XI

(Vatican website w2.vatican.va/content/vatican/en.html)
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This should really be a footnote in every Catholic Bible.
 
Wifely submission is difficult because it requires a strong faith, a real trust in God. It’s handing over our lives, stepping into the unknown, letting go of our (perception of) control, and that can be quite scary.

To me, “submitting” doesn’t mean blindly following my husband’s rule like a child, or outwardly agreeing to everything he says (even if I disagree inwardly), or unwillingly obeying out of fear, or accepting tyranny or disrespect like a doormat. Those are all examples of what people seem to think it means.

Submission as a wife calls for a respect that my husband’s reasons, thoughts, feelings, ideas, and decisions are just as valid as my own, and that I can choose to trust him and put him first in priority (after God, of course). I can choose to let him serve me as a leader and protector.

People seem to struggle with this idea that we are called to submit, as though submitting means we no longer have free will. Yes, we are called to submit… AND it’s a choice. It must be a choice, in order to be done out of love. Isn’t that usually the way with God? Let me repeat that one: Submitting is a choice.

Think about the Ten Commandments. Are we commanded? Well, yes, that’s why they’re called, “Commandments,” right?
Are we called to submit to God’s authority? Yes.
Does that mean we have no choice, or that we’re all doormats with no opinions of our own, or that God is a tyrant with no respect for us, or that He’s trying to be controlling? Of course not. 🤷
So why are we called to submit to these commandments? For our own benefit.

So why is a wife called to submit to her husband’s authority (assuming, of course, that he is not commanding anything that goes against God or against the wife’s dignity)? Same basic reason: *For her own benefit. *

It’s hard to let go of the reins and hand them over to someone else. It’s uncomfortable, unappealing, and scary. It’s a sacrifice. That’s why I think so many people try to make excuses or twist submission into something it’s not.
 
CatholicRaven said:
Wifely submission is difficult because it requires a strong faith, a real trust in God. It’s handing over our lives, stepping into the unknown, letting go of our (perception of) control, and that can be quite scary.

To me, “submitting” doesn’t mean blindly following my husband’s rule like a child, or outwardly agreeing to everything he says (even if I disagree inwardly), or unwillingly obeying out of fear, or accepting tyranny or disrespect like a doormat. Those are all examples of what people seem to think it means.

Submission as a wife calls for a respect that my husband’s reasons, thoughts, feelings, ideas, and decisions are just as valid as my own, and that I can choose to trust him and put him first in priority (after God, of course). I can choose to let him serve me as a leader and protector.

People seem to struggle with this idea that we are called to submit, as though submitting means we no longer have free will. Yes, we are called to submit… AND it’s a choice. It must be a choice, in order to be done out of love. Isn’t that usually the way with God? Let me repeat that one: Submitting is a choice.

Think about the Ten Commandments. Are we commanded? Well, yes, that’s why they’re called, “Commandments,” right?
Are we called to submit to God’s authority? Yes.
Does that mean we have no choice, or that we’re all doormats with no opinions of our own, or that God is a tyrant with no respect for us, or that He’s trying to be controlling? Of course not. 🤷
So why are we called to submit to these commandments? For our own benefit.

So why is a wife called to submit to her husband’s authority (assuming, of course, that he is not commanding anything that goes against God or against the wife’s dignity)? Same basic reason: *For her own benefit. *

It’s hard to let go of the reins and hand them over to someone else. It’s uncomfortable, unappealing, and scary. It’s a sacrifice. That’s why I think so many people try to make excuses or twist submission into something it’s not.
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Well said. The difficulty in accepting submission perhaps because we do not fully understand what Christian submission really means. Also, it may be compounded by us mixing our secular understanding of what we always consider submission is, which means to lose our identity and be a slave to the whim and fancy of the person we submit to.

In fact submission is a very common form of spirituality when Christians decide to be more committed in their life to God. We see this happen in one form or the other in religious and priestly communities.

Christian leadership does not mean lording it over those he has responsibility with but rather like Christ with His Church, leadership means to serve.

Seen in this context, a husband or a father figure in the family, is to serve them, giving his own life even, if needs be, for their good.

The important thing is that there must be an order in the family and the husband is the head. If this is clearly practiced, then children will naturally see it at work, and they would know the authority in the family.

A husband needs not have to do everything. He can delegate some responsibilities to his wife especially in areas where she has the expertise. It is nevertheless important for them to speak in one voice or to be seen so. Opposing decision or competing for influence could only confuse the family, especially children.

Thus in submission to each other, we allow pragmatism and love to rule but recognizing that ultimately the husband would make the decision which should be always on the good counsel of the wife.

The teaching in Ephesian about husband and wife would exclude the wife to obey him in the situation that he does not behave like Christ. She should certainly not obey him if the decision will lead her or both into sin.
 
Has everyone forgotten that the home is the domestic Church? I think what is often forgotten and someone brought this up that yes wives are supposed to be subject to their husbands obviously this isn’t a complete totalitarian thing, but remember husbands are supposed to love their wives as Christ loves his Church and you cannot have one verse without the other. I think it would be just as bad to turn this into an argument for women’s Liberation as it would be for an argument for a traditional machismo. I feel like a lot of folks don’t know how to read this verse in context so they take it out of context to make themselves feel more comfortable and it is a hard verse
 
Andrea_Day said:
Ephesians 5:24 “Therefore as the church is subject to Christ, so also let the wives be to their husbands in all things.”
…
I wanted to ask the Catholic men here for their masculine perspective. How do you interpret Ephesians 5:24? Did you interpret it differently in the past? Have you ever felt opposed to the Biblical structure of wives being mandated to subject to their husbands in everything?
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All the structures of God’s creation involves hierarchy. From the nine choirs of angels to the non-living creatures.
Andrea_Day said:
To the married men, what was your transition like from dating to becoming the husband, “head” (Ephesians 5:23) and “dominant” (Genesis 3:16)?
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In the hierarchy, the virtue of piety requires respect for those above us and care for those beneath us. To whom much is given, much will be demanded. All authority implies a concomitant responsibility.
 
Not a guy here, but just wondering what is the reason why there is a hierarchy in a marriage and why females are the ones that’s below the males :confused:
 
ashleyxo said:
Not a guy here, but just wondering what is the reason why there is a hierarchy in a marriage and why females are the ones that’s below the males :confused:
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At Catholic Answers, Fr. Ray Ryland contributes his opinion:

A couple may choose to reject the whole concept of headship for the husband. They may simply affirm — as many couples today do affirm — that “because we’re both persons, we’re equal — and equal in our marriage.” But the truth is that on the natural, human level, what they are saying is false. On the natural level husband and wife are not truly “equal.” In any given culture, past or present, a wife may or may not have equal civil rights with her husband. But in the marriage itself, as wife and mother the woman fills a role that is more central — more important to the spiritual and emotional life of the family — than the role of the husband. His is very important, of course, but the wife’s is more so.

Thus, on the natural level, there is an inescapable, inherent inequality between husband and wife within the marriage. (Remember now, we already have noted that in the eyes of God there is perfect equality between the spouses.) If spouses insist on their natural equality, they cannot truly share in that spousal complementarity that, as Pope John Paul II has so often reminded us, is God’s plan for the marriage relationship. Only in true complementarity can husband and wife achieve true oneness.

That’s the fact. Now allow me to offer an opinion about headship and the natural inequality in marriage. This opinion is not specific teaching of the Catholic Church, but it is in full harmony with what the Church does teach about marriage:

God bestows headship on the husband in order to bring the husband up, so to speak, to a position of full equality with his wife on the natural, human level. The wife is called by God to share in bestowing headship on her husband. She does this by lovingly consenting to her husband’s filling that role. She does this by helping him in every way she can to carry on his service of headship. Then, when they are truly equal on the natural level, they become capable of that complementarity that enables them to become one on the deepest level.

catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=6387
 
ashleyxo said:
Not a guy here, but just wondering what is the reason why there is a hierarchy in a marriage and why females are the ones that’s below the males :confused:
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Probably the same reason that Mary is Queen of the Heavens and Universe.
 
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