Catholic military chaplains

[BoomBoomMancini]

Lay off my people, please. I was enlisted once; in 1996 I cleared $414 a paycheck - and that was well below minimum wage for a Federal police officer who was also K9 trained, with the exact same training that the Secret Service and other Federal agencies received (back then I had an FAA agent in my class and two US Customs agents, along with military members, as all K9 handlers for all Federal agents are trained at Lackland AFB by my service). I worked 50-60 hour weeks, spent literally months on call because for a while I was the only non-deployed explosive team on base, and in general more than earned my $818 a month, while the Federal agents with the same level of experience made three times that in 1996.

To be clear, I’m not laying into your people. I’m not saying this applies to all or even most junior enlisted folks. Just that the ones I see most vocally complaining about being underpaid are the ones who are trying to live a lifestyle completely inappropriate for a 19 year old. And yes, it IS my business who they’re supporting, if they’re asking for more money out of the public treasury. If you’re 19 years old and making 25k a year, maybe thinking, “Yup, it’s time I settled down and started a family” is not the brightest idea you’ve ever had.

We as leaders should be doing more to encourage long term thinking and responsibility. “Look, you’ve known this girl for two months, have you really thought through this whole marriage idea?” is an uncomfortable conversation, but it can be a very necessary one.

And if you were enlisted in '96, I think you might be a little out of date. The pay is much better now, even adjusting for inflation, and there probably aren’t too many federal agents today (to go with your comparison) who are 19 and have no education or experience. And again, factor in all the benefits unique to the military: free healthcare. Pension or matching TSP. If you’re junior enlisted, you’re living free in the barracks. Yeah, it ain’t fancy, but neither are the college dorms your peers are living in. You can eat free in the chow hall. You’re working out for free in the base gym. For a lot of junior enlisted folks, their only real expense is their cell phone bill. And again, that Post 9/11. You realize that that can be worth hundreds of thousands of dollars?

I’m not saying military pay is extravagant or anything, but I do think it’s more or less a fair trade for the junior folks, considering the benefits and the the fact that you can come on board with nothing but a high school diploma.

 

[Pup7]

I wasn’t talking about the dorm rats driving better cars than I do. They irritate the crap out of me. I’m talking about the enlisted corps in general.

As the USAF has its own fully accredited community college, all of our enlisted corps is enrolled in higher education. I doubt the data is as skewed for this service as you might think.

 

[Phemie]

To be clear, I’m not laying into your people. I’m not saying this applies to all or even most junior enlisted folks. Just that the ones I see most vocally complaining about being underpaid are the ones who are trying to live a lifestyle completely inappropriate for a 19 year old.

When we were first married hubby was a Lieutenant, Air Traffic Controller. No Base housing because the Officers Patch was full. We offered to take row housing but noooo, no officer was going to live with NCOs (who had lots of time in and were making about 3 times his salary). So I went to work and we lived off Base in a high rise. We lived in a sublet for the first 6 months during which time we put a bedroom set on layaway and paid it off by the time we were ready to move. Lived with cushions on the floor, a trunk as a TV stand for our rented TV and an ironing board that served as coffee table. We saved up and bought a Scandinavian dining table & chairs. Still have that table 42 years later. Eventually bought a living room set. Chrome and corduroy. Classy! I worked full time until the kids came along and that didn’t happen until he’d been promoted to Captain. Then I didn’t work outside the home for 15 years.

Years later I listened to a young wife saying how the military members needed wayyyy more money. I mean, come on, her phone bill alone was $800/mo because she had to phone her mother every day while her husband was deployed. Almost threw up. We made two phone calls a month, one to my folks and one to his folks. Exception being birthdays and special occasions like Mothers Day and Christmas. It was that way until the “package” concept was introduced to Canada. It was called living within our means.

 

[Pup7]

Y’all are killing me.

As I said, I’m not talking about those who do stupid stuff like that.

I am prior enlisted and lived well within my means. What you all are discussing is a stereotype. Believe it or not, it’s not the norm. Thank God I have a bit of previous perspective. No wonder I get told I “get it”, by those both junior and senior to me.

If you honestly believe that it’s fair for an E5 with ten years in (yes, not uncommon in my service; we make rank slowly) with three kids to qualify for public assistance, there’s something wrong with that line of thinking by my reckoning. The E5 isn’t restricted to working 8 hours a day because he/she doesn’t make overtime. They can deploy, and work six days on with one day off, twelve hour shifts, for six months to a year at a time. And the fact that health care is essentially free doesn’t make up for that.

Their pay shouldn’t qualify them for public assistance. That is the DOD taking cash from the state taxpayer, and it’s not right.

 

[Phemie]

Oh, I fully agree with you that no military member’s pay should ever be low enough that they can qualify for welfare. If you’re expected to lay your life on the line you should at least be able to clothe, feed, and shelter yourself on the amount you get in return.

 

[Pup7]

I know the ones you speak of - and I turn a deaf ear to that line of complaint. Because that’s self-incurred.

They’re also usually the ones I end up sending to what we call the Airman and Family Readiness Center for financial counseling at some point.

 

[Thom18]

If you seriously think most E3s come in with all disposable income, you are woefully out of touch with reality. The average E3 comes in with heavy student loan debt. Many come in with kids, especially since the max enlistment age has been raised.

Someone with a college education is enlisting, rather than going to OCS? I figured most enlisted were high school grads.

 

[Pup7]

Uhm, no, they come in because they’re unable to finish due to student loan commitment, debt, and lack of funds.

Also, there are few OTS slots thanks to the recent drawdown. It’s hard to get a slot. We do have several E3s with college degrees. You can’t always just bounce to OTS.

The average first term Airman is in their early 20s with up to two years of college completed prior to enlistment.

 

[Thom18]

Uhm, no, they come in because they’re unable to finish due to student loan commitment, debt, and lack of funds.

Also, there are few OTS slots thanks to the recent drawdown. It’s hard to get a slot. We do have several E3s with college degrees. You can’t always just bounce to OTS.

The average first term Airman is in their early 20s with up to two years of college completed prior to enlistment.

It makes sense now that you put it that way. If that weren’t the case, I couldn’t imagine why someone with a college degree would enlist.

 

[BoomBoomMancini]

I just calculated an E5 with ten years, dependents, and used Fort Bragg for his/her duty station (seems like a fair choice: big base, low cost of living, etc). Total annual compensation: 60k.

Is that living extravagantly? No. But I guarantee it’s more than a high school teacher or cop makes in small town North Carolina, and their benefits don’t compare to active duty benefits.

 

[Pup7]

Their BASE PAY qualifies them for welfare. You cannot count housing because it’s not a true entitlement, it’s sort of a benefit, and can go away/be lowered per the state calculations for public assistance. I’ve said base pay from day one.

No one’s base pay should qualify them for welfare. Ever.

So post Federal (and maybe state) taxation they make about $48K, which with three kids isn’t going to win awards.

I make (almost) double what they make. Who’s the better paid for the same amount of work? And don’t believe the hype that the commissioned don’t work for a living - I do my time, as do my medical counterparts.

Funny that in sixteen years I’ve never once been criticized for sticking up for those I outrank.

 

[BoomBoomMancini]

Talking about military compensation and purposely excluding BAH is a meaningless discussion. That’s nearly half your compensation.

“They’re poor!”
“Really? Seems like they’re doing okay.”
“Well…if you only look at this one part of their LES, then they’re poor.”

Uh, okay? But that doesn’t actually affect reality. What’s the point?

 

[Pup7]

Uhm, no it’s not half the compensation. It’s about 1/3 on average across ranks, with the majority of the military existing under the rank of O4 (and most existing under the rank of E8, to be honest).

I hate to tell you, but for public assistance, IT IS NOT COUNTED because it is transient and is not part of one’s pay. Let’s average out what these folks make per hour for 50 hour weeks, as with the recent drawdowns most of us are working that. Or when you’re working six on, one off for twelve hour shifts - which is the standard deployment schedule.

Again, hilarious and a wee bit sad that I’m being criticized for sticking up for the junior people. No wonder the Airmen have the expression “being Chiefed”.

Go below E5, and start doing the math. Especially in areas where the housing allowances aren’t commensurate with rent prices (and there are many) and the availability of government quarters is horrendous.

My apologies to the OP for my role in the hijack of his thread.

 

[BoomBoomMancini]

No one is criticizing you for “sticking up for junior people.” I just think you’re pushing an outdated talking point: that junior people are getting shafted. I think that by and large the compensation is fair, and most junior enlisted people I see in dire financial straits are there because of their own poor choices. I have no doubt your heart is in the right place but, frankly, I think you’re kind of infantalizing junior personnel.

And okay, 1/3. 1/3 is a HUGE chunk of ones pay. There are lots of salaries we’d think of as more than fair that suddenly become meager if you lopped off 33%.

It’s especially weird that you refuse to consider it since it’s not taxable, which saves the serviceman even more money.

 

[Pup7]

Funny that the state doesn’t consider it, isn’t it?

I am well aware that it is nontaxable because I’m well aware of the chunk I pay out to the Feds, and as it’s our payday today, I’m painfully aware of it.

Infantilizing junior personnel? By thinking they don’t get enough pay? Right. That’s the very definition of the term.

No one said “in dire financial straits”. I am speaking in generalities. They are underpaid for what they are asked to do, and no one’s base pay should qualify them for welfare. I’m not talking about the dorm rats (our term) driving BMWs with $1500 cell phones. That’s stupidity on their part. I’m also not talking about dual military, who get a second housing allowance - tax free - even though they only get/have one house.

Having been junior enlisted, I’ll stick with what I haven’t forgotten. And it’s not as outdated as you seem to think it is. Come up here where childcare is outrageous even for one kid, gas is $3.50 a gallon on average, and the cost of living is ridiculous. $45K post taxation in the PNW is chump change. There’s no COLA here for them - most stateside COLA has gone the way of the dodo.

I’m active duty, full time, regular Air Force. I’m not thinking outdated in the least.

 

[BoomBoomMancini]

Well, it’s good that the state doesn’t consider it, because it means the servicemember isn’t taxed on it. Surely you can’t be complaining about service members having a lower tax burden, right?

And, look, I’ll be the first to agree with you that if you only look at base pay the military is very much a raw deal. The problem is that that is an absurd way to look at military compensation. You’re ignoring BAH, free medical, commissary and PX privileges, the post 9/11 G.I. Bill, tuition assistance for active-duty, subsidized childcare on base, and a whole host of other things.

And I will completely agree that a 24-year-old enlisted person in the military is not going to be able to support a stay at home spouse and 3 kids in a nice ranch house in the suburbs in most of the country. But my point is that most 24 year olds can’t either, in or out of uniform. that’s just not the stage of life at which you’re supposed to be doing that.

When I was 24, I was in the reserves and working as a federal civilian employee in DC. I was making probably 45 to 50 grand a year. And this would’ve been in about 2006. Was I living high on the hog? Hell no. But I was able to adequately support myself in a decent apartment and still have money to go out on Friday night.

 

[BoomBoomMancini]

(Continued)

But no way could I have supported a family at that point, and I was very well aware of that. But I didn’t expect to be able to do that at that age. And I would note that unlike an active-duty member at that point (I was probably making about as much as a single E5 in DC), I was being taxed on my whole paycheck and paying health insurance premiums.

And let me just say that I absolutely meant what I said when I said I’m sure your heart is in the right place. I have no doubt that you’re motivated by a desire to see your people taken care of. But I think it might be creating some bias in your thinking.

 

[Pup7]

Well, it’s good that the state doesn’t consider it, because it means the servicemember isn’t taxed on it. Surely you can’t be complaining about service members having a lower tax burden, right?

That isn’t what I’m talking about. What I said was the states don’t consider it for public assistance.

It’s already non-taxed. It has nothing to do with tax burden.

that’s just not the stage of life at which you’re supposed to be doing that.

That has nothing to do with it, actually.

You’re ignoring BAH, free medical, commissary and PX privileges, the post 9/11 G.I. Bill, tuition assistance for active-duty, subsidized childcare on base, and a whole host of other things.

Actually, no I’m not. I’m talking about basic compensation. Entitlement, not privilege, and not the GI Bill.

Subsidized child care on base isn’t as simple to access as you make it out to be. Please, go learn about how difficult it is to get access to it. It’s not available to everyone who actually needs it. And it’s still outrageously expensive.

When I was 24, I was in the reserves and working as a federal civilian employee in DC. I was making probably 45 to 50 grand a year. And this would’ve been in about 2006.

You were a Federal civilian employee with a fat locality supplement based on where you were. I too was a GS employee in that era. Your locality supplement for DC was far higher than it was in most areas. And yes, DC got a locality supplement. You were also drawing Reserve drill pay and likely had access to Tricare Reserve.

I drew $414 a paycheck as an enlisted member in 1995. Please don’t tell me about how everything was so much cheaper back then, either.

BAH was also straight for each rank - there was no JTR (Joint Travel Regulation) or ZIP based BAH. It was straight pay based on rank - everyone of every rank drew the same amount. That changed around 2001ish, about the time I separated the first time.

But I think it might be creating some bias in your thinking.

No, it’s not. I think you’ve got a bit of it, though. Because you’ve missed my point the entire time.

 

[BoomBoomMancini]

That has nothing to do with it, actually.

How could it not? Do you really think the military owes people a year out of high school the same standard of living that most people don’t achieve till they’re in the 30s? Do you really think starting a family at 21 is a responsible thing to do?

Because you’ve missed my point the entire time.

If your point is, “Enlisted people are underpaid if you only consider base pay” then I guess I agree with you, but that’s just sort of misleading. It’s like saying “It’s not that cold if you don’t factor in windchill” when the windchill makes a 30 degree difference.

You were a Federal civilian employee with a fat locality supplement based on where you were. I too was a GS employee in that era. Your locality supplement for DC was far higher than it was in most areas. And yes, DC got a locality supplement. You were also drawing Reserve drill pay and likely had access to Tricare Reserve.

That salary included my locality supplement. And it was “fat” because DC has a very high cost of living, as you well know.

Actually, no I’m not. I’m talking about basic compensation. Entitlement, not privilege, and not the GI Bill.

Subsidized child care on base isn’t as simple to access as you make it out to be. Please, go learn about how difficult it is to get access to it. It’s not available to everyone who actually needs it. And it’s still outrageously expensive.

But what’s the point of talking about basic compensation in isolation? That doesn’t tell the whole story, and it has the potential to be seriously misleading.

And do me a favor, please. I think we’re just going to end up having an honest disagreement here, which is fine, and I apologize if I seemed like I was taking shots at you. Wasn’t my intention. I meant this to be a friendly discussion, not a heated one. If I changed the tone, I’m sorry. But please, stop telling me to do research or think about this or that or learn about x. I haven’t been in as long as you, but I’ve been in uniform in some form or fashion for like 15 years. I’m currently on active duty. I’ve deployed to both Iraq and Afghanistan (where, incidentally, I lived in a tent the Air Force refused to house people in, saying it wasn’t fit for human habitation . I’m very familiar with on-base child care. You might think I’m wrong, which is fine, but please stop implying I don’t have a basis for my opinion. I’ve lived the life too.

 

[Pup7]

That salary included my locality supplement. And it was “fat” because DC has a very high cost of living, as you well know.

Which was my point, was it not?

What’s the point about talking about base pay in isolation?

Because the Feds allow the state to make up the difference. And that in my opinion is 100% wrong. Raise the base pay so it’s above the poverty line, or make it so military does not qualify for state benefits.

AAFES is a joke, as is DeCA. I have lived in many places where Target is cheaper and not taxed - making the ever-increasing surcharge almost laughable. In my lifetime, DeCA will disappear except OCONUS, and it should. Huge debate about that at the moment. As for AAFES - a private company, unlike NEXCOM, which is owned by the Navy - the number of price matches I do there is insane, and they too are being killed by Amazon and Target. To their credit, their new GM is changing the company, and AAFES is turning a new leaf as a result. I saw a massive difference when I returned from Korea.

With all due respect, show you’ve “lived the life”. I’ve lived both sides of the fence. I’ve been single enlisted, I’m now married commissioned. I’ve served across four presidents and have seen a lot of changes. We have come a long way, but there are still massive holes in the system. Telling me I’m infantalizing the junior force and that I’m biased (you’re right - I am, in their favor) because I think pay is ridiculously disproportionate (I have a friend who is a colonel who makes a base pay of $11K a month, while his E8 makes less than I do - by my friend’s admission, that’s ridiculous) isn’t exactly going to make me enamoured with your position.

Yes they are far better off than they were under Clinton, who gets military backing because he was the first president to significantly raise base pay in decades. But benefits aren’t everything - which is why we have retention problems, and why recruitment at the moment is hard. Very hard.