Catholic Miracles - LDS view?

[ForeverAdam]

How do those of you are LDS respond to the numerous examples of proven Eucharistic Miracles (where the flesh and blood of Jesus are seen in the Eucharist), the incorruptible bodies of several saints, examples of saints raising the dead, etc. within the Catholic Church (East and West)?

If they are true, wouldn’t it prove that not only does God’s favor rest on the Catholic Church but that it has retained priesthood authority to confect the Holy Eucharist and its sacraments can preserve the bodies of particular saints (seeing that the only Church to possess incorrupt saints is the Catholic Church, including the Orthodox who still have valid sacraments)?

I brought this up to an LDS friend once and they said it was like asking a Ford dealer about a Chevy. I don’t think that answer suffices. These proven miracles demand an explanation from all people, be they Baptist, Jehovah Witness, agnostic, Lutheran, or Mormon. Either they are from satan or they are from God. Which is it?

In Christ,

Adam

 

[Chazemataz]

I bring that up several times when I am cornered in a dbeate with a non-catholic. I ask them about the proven Eucharistic miracles. They then ask me about the Hindhu miracles & the New Age miracles that occur. I say “They are from Satan.”

That is, I guarantee you, what a Mormon will say. Then, we will be cornered. gulp

 

[BJ_Colbert]

I have never heard of these things you mention, just as you have not heard of our miracles, so do not think of them at all. I personally believe that there are miracles in every religion, because we are all God’s children and he loves us all the same and gives us blessings and miracles based on our obedience to his commandments. There are good Cathlolics who receive just as valid guidance from our Heavenly Father as good LDS do. I would never dismiss any miracles or presume to say they were of the devil. I believe in miracles from God, whether they happen to you or they happen to me. We have many miracle healings and raising from the dead or near death in the LDS Church, as well as miraculous rescues from near death. BJ

 

[Tmaque]

Being a Catholic convert from the LDS Church I must say that there are plenty of miracle stories in LDS history, and personal miracle stories in LDS circles. However, the vast majority simply aren’t on the same level as the miracles that have been officially approved by the Catholic Church. In fact, I can’t think of any that are.

The Catholic miracles cannot be explained away by circumstance, chance, natural means, etc. In fact, I think it takes those very criteria for the Catholic Church to call an event a “miracle”. Anyone can look up the Catholic miracles and see how absolutely amazing they truly are (if they truly occured, I tend to be skeptical but I do have some faith that the Church has done it’s homework).

 

[Tmaque]

Chazemataz:

I bring that up several times when I am cornered in a dbeate with a non-catholic. I ask them about the proven Eucharistic miracles. They then ask me about the Hindhu miracles & the New Age miracles that occur. I say “They are from Satan.”

That is, I guarantee you, what a Mormon will say. Then, we will be cornered. gulp

There are miracles and then there are MIRACLES. I would ask them to give you specifics. I’m quite sure that the “miracle” could be explained by lucky coincidence, natural event, or the fact that it’s simply mythology, which must be taken on faith(or not) either way. Contrast that with the Catholic miracles that are documented and scrutinized by the Church before they can be called as such(and most that get scrutinized do not). As a convert I found the difference striking.

I think what it comes down to with non-Catholics is that they simply don’t believe that our miracles(the truly miraculous ones) really occured…period. If they did they would have to re-examine(or examine for the first time) their choice of religions to follow.

 

[TOmNossor]

It was good for CA to be down now…

I have considered the Catholic miracles.

I agree with BJ and Tmaque that LDS have miracles too.

I disagree with Tmaque that LDS miracles are less miraculous.

I have yet to see a skeptic who felt they must accept the miracle of another tradition. Or a universal skeptic who has seen in miracles the proof of the divine. I think universal skeptics go too far in their denial of the supernatural. I think those who see no miracles in other traditions go too far in their one sided view of the validity of miracles.

I think it is easier for me to embrace the possible validity of Catholic miracles than it is for Catholics to embrace the possible validity of LDS miracle. Of course strict “one true church” folks since they believe in the supernatural can always assign other’s miracles to the work of the devil. I prefer not to do this.

I have read the book Eucharistic Miracles. I enjoyed it. I have not forgotten what my Catholic mother said about it. She called such things medieval superstition (or some such thing). I could excuse the majority of these miracle through pointing to the loss of control of the Eucharist, but I see no reason to do this (and if I recall I could not universally do this). I also do not wish to be as skeptical as my mother.

I prefer to believe that as best I can tell the CoJCoLDS is God’s highest worship and as such I have been called to participate in it. The Catholic Church is a lower form of worship with errors introduced by men (not that there are not errors introduced by men in the highest form, just that there are fewer and the gospel is more pure). However, God loves His Catholic children and until He chooses to call them to a higher form (which may never happen because Justification/Sanctification can occur in lower forms) He will provide for the miraculous so as to help foster faith.

Integral to the above paradigm (which I borrowed and developed from another person) is that all I know is that God had called me through direct communication and reason to the CoJCoLDS. I cannot demand that it is I who participate in the highest paradigm. Reason tells me so (and thus I invite those who are actively seeking to be LDS), but reason is part of the method God calls to His children.

I believe the above idea fits solidly within the CoJCoLDS framework. I believe a Catholic may be able to embrace such an idea (I know one who says, yes I can and one who says, Catholics cannot). In any case, such a paradigm is necessary in my opinion because honest seekers are called to the CoJCoLDS and called to the Catholic Church. I cannot be logically consistent and demand that God only has a hand in those things that most closely align with the CoJCoLDS as the one true church.

Charity, TOm

 

[Casen]

I agree with TOm’s summary and will only add that I’ve personally witnessed “miracles” in other Christian faiths and subscribe to the belief that faith in Jesus Christ can bring about miracles, healings, etc regardless of the church the person belongs to. I have also see miraculous events that I would attribute to Satan and saw some of these as an LDS missionary in South America. When a woman became “filled with the spirit” in a Pentecostal church and threw her baby on the floor I was pretty sure she was filled with A SPIRIT and also convinced with wasn’t the HOLY SPIRIT.

 

[ForeverAdam]

Tom,

Interesting thoughts. How do you explain the visions of saints who have appeared to people? Of course, not all the visions are true, but some must, particularly the ones that are approved by the Church. How does this fit in with the LDS belief that all people between the beginning of the “Great Apostasy” and the “Restoration” in 1830 were held in “spirit prison” until the ordinances could be administered to them by proxy? The saints appeared as coming from paradise and taught Catholic teaching to the people.

Could it be possible that Joseph Smith wasn’t exactly correct when he said that the priesthood authority was totally lost in Christianity? I think a LDS could consider the possibility given the scientifically-proven Eucharistic miracles, incorrupt saints, tested and approved visions, etc. of the Catholic Church, that point to her being able to bring people to salvation apart from the LDS Church.

Besides, it would seem that if the Eucharistic Miracles are from God then the Catholic Church must possess Jesus and people must be Catholic in order to be with Jesus, par excellance. However, if God gives the Catholic Church the semblance of priesthood authority he is deliberately keeping people outside the LDS Church and robbing them of the chance of eternal exalatation, and of course, furthering false teaching. What do you think? I find your perspectives very interesting and await your response.

In Christ,

Adam

 

[stillsearching]

BJ Colbert:

I have never heard of these things you mention, just as you have not heard of our miracles, so do not think of them at all. I personally believe that there are miracles in every religion, because we are all God’s children and he loves us all the same and gives us blessings and miracles based on our obedience to his commandments. There are good Cathlolics who receive just as valid guidance from our Heavenly Father as good LDS do. I would never dismiss any miracles or presume to say they were of the devil. I believe in miracles from God, whether they happen to you or they happen to me. We have many miracle healings and raising from the dead or near death in the LDS Church, as well as miraculous rescues from near death. BJ

BJ, are you saying you have people dead people come back to life in your temples? The Mormons have raised the dead literally?

 

[Paul_G]

ForeverAdam:

These proven miracles demand an explanation from all people, be they Baptist, Jehovah Witness, agnostic, Lutheran, or Mormon. Either they are from satan or they are from God. Which is it? Adam

Everyone in the world are Heavenly Fathers children. All just minded people can receive inspirations from The Holy Ghost, and some as Casen mentioned are from Satan Therefore, people of many different faiths can receive what could be classified as a miracle in their life (although they might not explain the source of the miracle in the same terms). So speaking for myself, I believe that miracles happen for people of what ever faith, even LDS.

 

[ForeverAdam]

I do believe that many people have preternatural experiences, some true, some false. However, the Catholic miracles I’m mentioning are different than the regular inspiration, visions, writings, etc. as they prove Catholic doctrine in an exclusive manner. For example, if Catholicism truly has the real presence of Jesus in the Holy Eucharist (as the Eucharistic Miracles attest) then Catholic priests possess priesthood authority to confect the Eucharist, and the LDS and others are wrong to say that they don’t. And, moreover, it would mean that to have Jesus, par excellance, you would have to be Catholic. A similar thing could be said about the effect of Catholic sacraments on the bodies of certain saints who are incorrupt. Since Catholicism (including the Orthodox Church here) is the only religion to have some of its members preserved incorrupt after death, this seems to say that Catholicism possesses a unique power not found in other faiths (at least none that I know of).

In any case, I think a study of the “miraculous” in the Catholic Church points out that not only is it a road to salvation, but the one true Church. They leave little room for a neutral position, IMO.

In Christ,

Adam

 

[ForeverAdam]

I would also add that satan can deceive many with visions, dreams, voices, writings, etc. but it is much harder for him to truly make the miraculous. Satan can give people revelations that are mixed with error also. He can because as an angel of the highest order he is very intelligent and has seen the world and history enough to truly know much about it, being our ancient enemy. But to work miracles that aren’t illusions or destroyed by God, I have my doubts.

We have the example of magicians in Exodus whose rods turned to snakes, but we know that Moses’ rod-turned-snake ate theirs. To me, this shows that any true miracle can only come from God. Satan’s imitations are either illusions or are allowed in order to be shown as false by God, for God alone has the power to work true, lasting miracles. As a Catholic I can believe that LDS people are healed some even raised from the dead by God. God will hear the prayer of anybody with a honest, sincere heart. However, LDS cannot accept Eucharistic Miracles and the like without compromising their position as the one, true Church. So, I wonder how they explain these miracles without showing that they still are not the only true Church, and the only ones with priesthood authority.

In Christ,

Adam

 

[Paul_G]

ForeverAdam:

Since Catholicism (including the Orthodox Church here) is the only religion to have some of its members preserved incorrupt after death, this seems to say that Catholicism possesses a unique power not found in other faiths (at least none that I know of).

This type of phenomenon is not exclusive to the Catholic or Orthodox and has been observed in people of other faiths. I don’t know the Catholic persons who this may have happen to, so I can’t say whether there is a correlation to the other instances of this phenomenon.

 

[Paul_G]

ForeverAdam:

However, LDS cannot accept Eucharistic Miracles and the like without compromising their position as the one, true Church. So, I wonder how they explain these miracles without showing that they still are not the only true Church, and the only ones with priesthood authority.

I don’t believe we either accept or do not accept this phenomenon, for us it is not an issue and needs no explanation, and in my opinion certainly doesn’t confirm, or disallow authority. It is what it is.

 

[TOmNossor]

ForeverAdam:

Interesting thoughts. How do you explain the visions of saints who have appeared to people? Of course, not all the visions are true, but some must, particularly the ones that are approved by the Church. How does this fit in with the LDS belief that all people between the beginning of the “Great Apostasy” and the “Restoration” in 1830 were held in “spirit prison” until the ordinances could be administered to them by proxy? The saints appeared as coming from paradise and taught Catholic teaching to the people.

I have a very muted view of the Apostasy. I believe this view is derived from canonical statements AND from the statements of Joseph Smith. After the man who stood before God the Father and God the Son and heard about the apostasy was killed by folks the LDS believed were Christians, the formulations of the apostasy became more bold. The CoJCoLDS is recovering from this.

Joseph Smith said:
Joseph Smith:

If I esteem mankind to be in error, shall I bear them down? No. I will lift them up, and in their own way too, if I cannot persuade them my way is better; and I will not seek to compel any man to believe as I do, only by the force of reasoning, for truth will cut its own way. Do you believe in Jesus Christ and the Gospel of salvation which he revealed? So do I. Christians should cease wrangling and contending with each other, and cultivate the principles of union and friendship in their midst; and they will do it before the millennium can be ushered in and Christ takes possession of His kingdom.

These are not the words of someone who feels that all Christians are damned if the do not become LDS Christians.

In addition to this, Joseph Smith read, Foxe’s Book of Martyrs and spoke positively of these folks saying that they were good people who would receive their reward.

Also, as a Christian we recognize that Abraham needed the atonement of Jesus Christ, but yet before Christ’s atonement folks were spoken of as going to the “bosom of Abraham.” I mention this for two reasons. First, I believe the atonement bridges time. Just because one died “before” the atonement does not mean that the “instant” one died the atonement was not effective for them. The same would be true for vicarious efforts of the CoJCoLDS. Second, the paradise state (the LDS equivalent to “bosom of Abraham”) is not necessarily a place were Saints cannot in some sense visit men.

So I do not see any soles waiting for vicarious ordinances. Our salvation is predicated upon our beliefs/actions not upon vicarious ordinances BECAUSE vicarious ordinances will be universally preformed.

And lastly, history teaches me that the apostasy was a loss of the highest Peterine authority. The lesser authority possessed by local Bishops likely continued for many many years. There is no binding position on when the priesthood was lost for the CoJCoLDS all we know is that it was restored by Joseph Smith. We should also recognize that LDS do not suggest there will be no Catholics or Moslem’s who receive the highest rewards (and responsibilities) offered by God. This means that earthly administration to people by those with proper authority is not necessary for salvation. What we become may be aided by our alignment with priesthood holders, but it is ultimately our personal relationship with Christ that saves.

cont…

 

[TOmNossor]

ForeverAdam:

Could it be possible that Joseph Smith wasn’t exactly correct when he said that the priesthood authority was totally lost in Christianity? I think a LDS could consider the possibility given the scientifically-proven Eucharistic miracles, incorrupt saints, tested and approved visions, etc. of the Catholic Church, that point to her being able to bring people to salvation apart from the LDS Church.

I do not discount the possibility that the lesser authority may still exist within the Catholic Church. As Martin Luther observed that if one with authority was required for Baptism (as LDS and St. Cyprian maintain/maintained) then soon there would be nobody properly baptized and thus noone with proper authority either. Martin Luther concluded that authoritative Baptism was not required even though the evidence perhaps didn’t seem to him to point this direction. Oh how close he got!

I suggest that over time heretical baptism eroded the valid lesser authority.

Just like the Jews continued to have Priests and High Priests while the Apostles and early Bishop ruled Christ’s church the Catholic Church continues to have priests, bishops, and … while the Prophet and LDS Apostles serve Christ’s church.

I KNOW the Catholic Church has wonderful truth and light, I just see more in the CoJCoLDS.

BTW, where would you say that Joseph Smith said, “the priesthood authority was totally lost in Christianity?” I would be fine with this, but I would also be interested in seeing what you are referring too.

ForeverAdam:

Besides, it would seem that if the Eucharistic Miracles are from God then the Catholic Church must possess Jesus and people must be Catholic in order to be with Jesus, par excellance. However, if God gives the Catholic Church the semblance of priesthood authority he is deliberately keeping people outside the LDS Church and robbing them of the chance of eternal exalatation, and of course, furthering false teaching. What do you think? I find your perspectives very interesting and await your response.

No, those outside the CoJCoLDS are not robbed of the chance for eternal exaltation.

God is not responsible for the false teaching either, but through faith people can move mountains. And God would never discourage the faith that can move mountains.

Assuming as I believe that the CoJCoLDS is God’s highest path. That the most truth is contained in the CoJCoLDS and those who are ready can move toward God the fastest in the CoJCoLDS, I suggest that there could exist those who were not ready for the CoJCoLDS.

I could really get into this, but here is a thread were I talked about it.

http://www.fairboards.org/index.php?showtopic=8450&st=0

Charity, TOm

 

[TOmNossor]

stillsearching:

BJ, are you saying you have people dead people come back to life in your temples? The Mormons have raised the dead literally?

LDS have participated in divine resurrection, but I know of no cases that supposedly occurred in a temple. The book Other Side of Heaven discusses at least one instance as I understand.

Charity, TOm

 

[Jerusha]

After the man who stood before God the Father and God the Son and heard about the apostasy was killed by folks the LDS believed were Christians, the formulations of the apostasy became more bold.

But there were few Catholics in the area at the time. Some say that they were the Masons, others say that it was the lawless element that the Mormons attracted into the area-- I believe that hypothesis, based on his last letter to Gov. Ford. It may even been the result of a power struggle between Joe and family, and Brigham Young’s group.

Thomas Sharp’s writings immediately after the event vindicate him, I think. I do think his inflammatory writings contributed to the situation, however.
Certainly I have great compassion for JS. He was the wrong person to have been targeted for death. However, his death did prevent a minor civil war.

 

[stillsearching]

TOmNossor:

I have a very muted view of the Apostasy. I believe this view is derived from canonical statements AND from the statements of Joseph Smith. After the man who stood before God the Father and God the Son and heard about the apostasy was killed by folks the LDS believed were Christians, the formulations of the apostasy became more bold. The CoJCoLDS is recovering from this.

Joseph Smith said:

These are not the words of someone who feels that all Christians are damned if the do not become LDS Christians.

In addition to this, Joseph Smith read, Foxe’s Book of Martyrs and spoke positively of these folks saying that they were good people who would receive their reward.

Also, as a Christian we recognize that Abraham needed the atonement of Jesus Christ, but yet before Christ’s atonement folks were spoken of as going to the “bosom of Abraham.” I mention this for two reasons. First, I believe the atonement bridges time. Just because one died “before” the atonement does not mean that the “instant” one died the atonement was not effective for them. The same would be true for vicarious efforts of the CoJCoLDS. Second, the paradise state (the LDS equivalent to “bosom of Abraham”) is not necessarily a place were Saints cannot in some sense visit men.

So I do not see any soles waiting for vicarious ordinances. Our salvation is predicated upon our beliefs/actions not upon vicarious ordinances BECAUSE vicarious ordinances will be universally preformed.

And lastly, history teaches me that the apostasy was a loss of the highest Peterine authority. The lesser authority possessed by local Bishops likely continued for many many years. There is no binding position on when the priesthood was lost for the CoJCoLDS all we know is that it was restored by Joseph Smith. We should also recognize that LDS do not suggest there will be no Catholics or Moslem’s who receive the highest rewards (and responsibilities) offered by God. This means that earthly administration to people by those with proper authority is not necessary for salvation. What we become may be aided by our alignment with priesthood holders, but it is ultimately our personal relationship with Christ that saves.

cont…

So the 64,000 dollar question here Tom is if Joseph Smith were alive today would he be living with the LDS or the FLDS as the FLDS see the LDS as apostate? Remember the FLDS practice the same way Smith did and the LDS do not. They have modified his religion.

 

[Jerusha]

So the 64,000 dollar question here Tom is if Joseph Smith were alive today would he be living with the LDS or the FLDS as the FLDS see the LDS as apostate? Remember the FLDS practice the same way Smith did and the LDS do not. They have modified his religion.

I believe that the path his family followed indicates what he would have done if he had been able to purge the church of lawlessness. RLDS (CofC). I do not believe that he was really comfortable with polygamy-- he was bending to the sexuality of idolization and social pressure. His vision of the threatening angel who demanded that he do it-- or else, is telling. RLDS (CofC) FLDS would be Brigham Young’s church.

During the 1820’s the counties that currently make up the Diocese of Peoria were included in several dioceses, including Bardstown, Kentucky, St. Louis, Missouri and Vincennes, Indiana. During this period central Illinois was largely a mission territory of these dioceses. In 1843, the Diocese of Chicago was formed, encompassing the entire state of Illinois. The coming of the railroads in the 1840’s occasioned a growth spurt in the Catholic population in central Illinois.

cdop.org/about_us/history.cfm There is no mention of a significant Catholic population in Western Illinois in this history.