Catholic morality

[Chancellare]

I read several political columnists assailing the Catholic Church in our country for its “failure” to help reduce corruption and immorality in government and the private sector in the society in general.( Our country is considered as 85% Catholic) For example, our bishop’s stand vs legislated contraceptiion is undermined by sex scandals and this ‘failure’ in its mission to reduce immorality in society is not helping the advocacy effort. Having ‘failed’ its mission, the Church is percieved as irrelevant vis a vis its stand on other social concerns where its advocacy is sorely needed. I can usually whip up a good rebuttal to a columnist to balance his view in a given issue especially concerning the Church. But I find this one is too heavy to rebutt or my ‘journalistic’ material is tooweak. Any suggestion what or where I can get good rebuttal arguments for the above?

 

[littleone]

I read several political columnists assailing the Catholic Church in our country for its “failure” to help reduce corruption and immorality in government and the private sector in the society in general.( Our country is considered as 85% Catholic) For example, our bishop’s stand vs legislated contraceptiion is undermined by sex scandals and this ‘failure’ in its mission to reduce immorality in society is not helping the advocacy effort. Having ‘failed’ its mission, the Church is percieved as irrelevant vis a vis its stand on other social concerns where its advocacy is sorely needed. I can usually whip up a good rebuttal to a columnist to balance his view in a given issue especially concerning the Church. But I find this one is too heavy to rebutt or my ‘journalistic’ material is tooweak. Any suggestion what or where I can get good rebuttal arguments for the above?

May I ask you something…Who do you represent Jesus the Christ, the only way to the Father, He who is the Truth ,the Life, and the Way?
Or do you wish to represent the Catholic church?

Which one will get you to Heaven,think about it.
Think also if Jesus told us to follow HIM, and are we told if we donot leave our family spiritualy, (the church), which meens don’t cover up for wrong doings but to relate to our priests about such situations, We are also told that if we are holding onto our flesh family we are not worthy of Him. That is the reason why Jesus tells us not to call any other person “father”. If we follow Jesus correctly then we will take Jesus as our Father and Mary as our mother and our love for ALL people will be equal with no judgment at all.
That is the correct CATHOLIC INTERPRETATION OF FAMILY. Always spirit first.
You are called to speak the truth not cover up wrong if you see or hear it relate it to the priest.
God bless
littleone

 

[MichaelTDoyle]

The Church is the spotless bride of Christ. Following Church teaching is following Jesus.

 

[puzzleannie]

Mother Teresa was attacked by many journalists and critics because she did not attack global causes of poverty in India, she just took care of individual poor people, and even with all the work she and her sisters have done and are doing around the world, there are still millions of poor suffering people, and the conditions that cause their poverty are not solved. She has been called a failure and worse. Her response is that we are not called to suceed, we are called to be faithful.

 

[littleone]

Mother Teresa was attacked by many journalists and critics because she did not attack global causes of poverty in India, she just took care of individual poor people, and even with all the work she and her sisters have done and are doing around the world, there are still millions of poor suffering people, and the conditions that cause their poverty are not solved. She has been called a failure and worse. Her response is that we are not called to suceed, we are called to be faithful.

we are not called to suceed, we are called to be faithful? I agree faithful to Jesus, to Jesus, to Jesus.
I know of a priest who when the additions of the church meant new carpet being put down, he chose the carpet that represented his traditional Irish country. Even though he knew that Jesus had told him to have red carpet. He was told to change it to the color Jesus had told him and he wouldn’t do it. A down poor came and flooded the carpet and he then put the carpet Jesus had told him to put down.

Priests are also human and CAN be distracted it is because of this, that Jesus gives us the gift of discernment should we ask for it, and use it with wisdom, so that we do not stray. That is why we are not to put down priests but to build them up which may seem like I have not done here in this thread.
No it is the actions that we are to discern over, NOT their person.

We are called to love priests and to pray for them. What then if we know that one errs, are we to let it go, where does wisdom come in then? How do we follow Jesus when we see a person a priest do wrong and do not do something about it, though it be done in love not put down? I am suggesting firstly that one would clean up their own back yard first.

 

[vz71]

I know of a priest who when the additions of the church meant new carpet being put down, he chose the carpet that represented his traditional Irish country. Even though he knew that Jesus had told him to have red carpet. He was told to change it to the color Jesus had told him and he wouldn’t do it. A down poor came and flooded the carpet and he then put the carpet Jesus had told him to put down.

You know the private conversations between the priest and God?


Further then that, you will have an uphill battle convincing me that Jesus had an opinion in that matter.

 

[gardenswithkids]

I read several political columnists assailing the Catholic Church in our country for its “failure” to help reduce corruption and immorality in government and the private sector in the society in general… For example, our bishop’s stand vs legislated contraceptiion is undermined by sex scandals and this ‘failure’ in its mission to reduce immorality in society is not helping the advocacy effort. Having ‘failed’ its mission, the Church is percieved as irrelevant vis a vis its stand on other social concerns …

So let me see if I this straight:

Some political columnist in your country think that the mission of the Catholic Church is not spreading the Gospel of Jesus Christ, but instead they think the Church’s mission is to “reduce immorality”. Now they say that since people in your society continue to sin (including members of the Catholic Church), the Catholic Church must be irrelevant.

They want to “reduce immorality” by spreading *immoral *behavior they want legalized.

If they succeed in making the Church irrelevant, what becomes relevant in its place? What belief system do they wish to substitute for the Church? What “savior” do these columnist advocate your people follow instead of Christ?

I strongly suspect you are simply encountering columnist who wish to get the Church out of the way so they can push their own agendas instead of Christ’s. Jesus came to save us from sin and that includes these columnists. Pray for them, and pray hard.

 

[Della]

littleone:

May I ask you something…Who do you represent Jesus the Christ, the only way to the Father, He who is the Truth ,the Life, and the Way?
Or do you wish to represent the Catholic church?

You are setting up a false premise here. No one needs to choose between Christ and his Church. The Church is Christ’s Body, after all, not a separate entity unto itself.

As to the subject of this thread, I agree completely with gardenswithkids.

 

[littleone]

You know the private conversations between the priest and God?


Further then that, you will have an uphill battle convincing me that Jesus had an opinion in that matter.

If I were to relate the whole situation you would see that I am not joking. I love our priests and will not put them down I only relate to the sitaution not the person. The outcome was positive and I still share with the priest from time to time. There is NO faulse premis here that is why I used biblical readings. As I stated I represent Jesus Christ and in that Iam a member of the followers of Jesus Christ in the Catholic community. However Jesus comes first. The spirit of God befor the church on the earth. ( not to put it down, or to be little it but to put the spirit befor the earth).
God bless
littleone

 

[vz71]

If I were to relate the whole situation you would see that I am not joking.

Didn’t think you were.
That leaves two options. The priest told you about a conversation between he and God.
Or you have acquired an ability most do not have, the ability to read minds.

I love our priests and will not put them down I only relate to the sitaution not the person. The outcome was positive and I still share with the priest from time to time. There is NO faulse premis here that is why I used biblical readings. As I stated I represent Jesus Christ and in that Iam a member of the followers of Jesus Christ in the Catholic community. However Jesus comes first. The spirit of God befor the church on the earth. ( not to put it down, or to be little it but to put the spirit befor the earth).
God bless
littleone

Your statements set up the false premise that one must choose between Church and God.
That is not the case. Your insistance upon this however does belittle the church. No matter what kind of disclaimer you put in parentheses.
Perhaps you could address why you feel a difference is there.

 

[Ruthie]

“As I stated I represent Jesus Christ and in that Iam a member of the followers of Jesus Christ in the Catholic community. However Jesus comes first. The spirit of God befor the church on the earth.”

Be careful, littleone! Your statement isn’t false; of course Jesus comes first. But it must be said in humility. If not, well… every Protestant denomination has based their leaving the Church, or leaving their original Protestant denomination, on exactly that thought.

Chancellare, the answer I give to such bilge is “The Church is not a club for saints, It is a hospital for sinners.”

You can also ask them, depending on their political stance, whether Clinton’s, or Nixon’s misdeeds made every accomplishment of their administrations meaningless.

For other insights, see “gardens with kids” and “puzzle annie.”

 

[littleone]

Didn’t think you were.
That leaves two options. The priest told you about a conversation between he and God.
Or you have acquired an ability most do not have, the ability to read minds.

Your statements set up the false premise that one must choose between Church and God.
That is not the case. Your insistance upon this however does belittle the church. No matter what kind of disclaimer you put in parentheses.
Perhaps you could address why you feel a difference is there.

There is a third option, one that is not understood or accepted often. For a long time I was used and this was totally understood in our catholic church in our provincial area. Have you heard of the five fold minitry?
Well one of them is as a Prophet. Like the ones of old. It isn’t nice it isn’t enjoyable and you don’t know where you are being sent to at times. And worstly you are God’s mouth piece so He destines what is to be said and where and at what time. At times you feel like you might get killed.

Without going into it that was my ministry and to have to tell priests different things such as "God told me to tell you that that colour you wish to put on that floor is not of His liking. God want’s red for His blood.
When it didn’t happen the rain ruined it and red carpet was put down.

That is no big deal it is God’s chosing and if I told you what would happen at mass at times, you as I have, would probably cry for the mercy and love shown by God. These ministris were over some 10 to 15years, and I received news letters from news papers thousands of miles away talking about this prophet. I don’t lavish over it the prophet God chose to use me as is the spirit of Ezekiel and he was hated, so you see I don’t talk about it, it wasn’t eazy or fun.
That is one of the ministries, to have priests ask you to take part of the mass is very disconcerting but to have the priest tell you not to worry still doesn’t clean the slate. to have peoples limbs formed in front of you, to stopp the wind rain , storms, have animals come up to you and you understand their plee for help, to be told to take food to a person on the side of the road many miles away, and to have the person take the food write the story of his life about how God sent this person who didn’t know him, all because the person was starving and had tried to take his life. He asked God if He was real could he have some food! And the list goes on and praise God not me or anything to do with me I was only the empty vestle.

How telling a friends girlfriend that if she needed someone to talk to then ring me??? Why would I say that. Later, she rang me and told me that she wanted what I have?? I told her I only had Jesus Christ. She said I want that then. When I got around to her place I was shocked to see 7 women who all wanted Jesus Christ and the baptism of the holy spirit. So you see I have NO control over this.
The list is endless, most I have forgotten.
I have never mentioned in forum this story.
God bless
littleone

 

[littleone]

Be careful, littleone! Your statement isn’t false; of course Jesus comes first. But it must be said in humility. If not, well… every Protestant denomination has based their leaving the Church, or leaving their original Protestant denomination, on exactly that thought.

I agree Ruthie, thank you, I have to check myself from what people as yourself have checked me, I go straight to Jesus and ask Him if i am in line, and my wife hears from God and tells me also if need be.
I find that self denial helps keep mind on Jesus.
I could NEVER leave the Catholic church Jesus has told me through many others He wishes to use me here. My offeriing is worth nothing, but my obediance is what He wants.

You know one thing I forgot to write is the amount of put down the geering I would get, the times people told me they thought i was crazy, that love was dead it’s now dog eat dog. But latter after 19 yers of working with them and praying for them, many invited me to a prayer group where i saw a large number of themthere.
Later 3 of them died soon after they received Jesus and the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
Lastly they told me they never understood me, but at work they would hide behind the stacks and listen to my friend and i relating how good our God was to us. They then said if anyone ever spoke negative about me “Oli, we would tell them to leave you alone your all right.” One told me not to worry he knew where he was going, and he died.
God bless
littleone

 

[vz71]

There is a third option, one that is not understood or accepted often. For a long time I was used and this was totally understood in our catholic church in our provincial area. Have you heard of the five fold minitry?
Well one of them is as a Prophet. Like the ones of old. It isn’t nice it isn’t enjoyable and you don’t know where you are being sent to at times. And worstly you are God’s mouth piece so He destines what is to be said and where and at what time. At times you feel like you might get killed.

You claim yourself to be a prophet?

Is your local Bishop aware of this?

 

[Chancellare]

So let me see if I this straight:

Some political columnist in your country think that the mission of the Catholic Church is not spreading the Gospel of Jesus Christ, but instead they think the Church’s mission is to “reduce immorality”. Now they say that since people in your society continue to sin (including members of the Catholic Church), the Catholic Church must be irrelevant.

They want to “reduce immorality” by spreading *immoral *behavior they want legalized.

If they succeed in making the Church irrelevant, what becomes relevant in its place? What belief system do they wish to substitute for the Church? What “savior” do these columnist advocate your people follow instead of Christ?

I strongly suspect you are simply encountering columnist who wish to get the Church out of the way so they can push their own agendas instead of Christ’s. Jesus came to save us from sin and that includes these columnists. Pray for them, and pray hard.

They are actually challenging the “relevance” of Catholic/Christian teachings in people’s lives- why there is no link between the availablity of moral teachings and a moral society!

 

[littleone]

You claim yourself to be a prophet?

Is your local Bishop aware of this?

I never said I am but in those times it was the will of God. It was well known.
There is no big deal as I have mentioned.
God’s will will be done no matter if He has to use an *** to teach a Prophet in the old testement.

 

[gardenswithkids]

They are actually challenging the “relevance” of Catholic/Christian teachings in people’s lives- why there is no link between the availablity of moral teachings and a moral society!

You wrote earlier that these writers argue your bishop’s stand against legislated contraceptiion is undermined by sex scandals. While any scandal in the Church is terrible, it doesn’t make Church teachings irrelevant. Medical doctors get sick and even die–does that make make these editors question the “relevance” of medicine?

Yes, if sinners were saints, society would be better.
G. K Chesterton observe, "The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting. It has been found difficult and left untried. "

I question their notion that there is no link between availability of moral teachings and a moral society, but wish to repeat the point that I tried to make earlier. The Church doesn’t simply have “moral teachings”; the Church has teachings. The Fall damaged our human natures, and even after baptism the tendency to sin remains. Each and every one of us needs Christ’s grace and salvation in order to live as God designed, yet some reject it. The newspaper editors observe priests sin and falsely conclude the Church teachings are wrong; I observe that human nature is indeed wounded by sin, just as the Church teaches.

 

[vz71]

There is a third option, one that is not understood or accepted often. For a long time I was used and this was totally understood in our catholic church in our provincial area. Have you heard of the five fold minitry?
Well one of them is as a Prophet. Like the ones of old. It isn’t nice it isn’t enjoyable and you don’t know where you are being sent to at times. And worstly you are God’s mouth piece so He destines what is to be said and where and at what time. At times you feel like you might get killed.

You claim yourself to be a prophet?

Is your local Bishop aware of this?

I never said I am but in those times it was the will of God. It was well known.

Then you are not?

Either you are or you are not. It seems you are trying to ride both sides of that statement. First you make a claim that God was using you as a prophet, then you claim not.

Am I the only one confused here???

 

[gardenswithkids]

Am I the only one confused here???

No, I’m confused why littleone and you are discussing this–seems both off topic and possibly falls into the category of private revelation.

As vz pointed out, Littleone’s bishop or other Church authorities should know if he’s hearing voices he thinks are Jesus. St. Teresa of Avila, a great saint and doctor of the Church, had such experiences with Jesus. She writes she obeyed legitimate Church authority, lest she be decieved voices coming from something other than Jesus.

But none of this relates to the topic of this thread, which was a question about how to respond to an editorial.

 

[vz71]

I read several political columnists assailing the Catholic Church in our country for its “failure” to help reduce corruption and immorality in government and the private sector in the society in general.( Our country is considered as 85% Catholic) For example, our bishop’s stand vs legislated contraceptiion is undermined by sex scandals and this ‘failure’ in its mission to reduce immorality in society is not helping the advocacy effort. Having ‘failed’ its mission, the Church is percieved as irrelevant vis a vis its stand on other social concerns where its advocacy is sorely needed. I can usually whip up a good rebuttal to a columnist to balance his view in a given issue especially concerning the Church. But I find this one is too heavy to rebutt or my ‘journalistic’ material is tooweak. Any suggestion what or where I can get good rebuttal arguments for the above?

Well, the columnist has shown very well that the people in the church are human. It does not necessarily show the performance of the church in its mission.

I would challange based on the premise that the columnist does not have a grasp of what the mission of the church is.