Catholic Nazis?

[quasimodo]

Read Ronald J. Rychlak’s “Hitler, The War and The Pope”

It addresses all of the lies and misinformation in “Hitler’s Pope” and the play “The Deputy.” It also addresses the innuendo and guilt by association alluded to by AAthiest. Rychlak actually explains what a concordat is, why it was signed and who else signed agreements with the Nazi government.

 

[Eden]

If we took a picture of Neville Chamberlain meeting with Hitler (which was in the hopes of avoiding war) without commentary, it would look like Chamberlain was a Nazi too. The effort of some anti-Catholics to rewrite Catholic involvement in Nazi Germany should anger us all. Look at these articles by Pat Buchanan:

worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=44329

Yet, here is the same New York Times on December 25th, 1941: “The voice of Pius XII is a lonely voice in the silence and darkness enveloping Europe this Christmas. … He is about the only ruler left on the continent of Europe who dares to raise his voice at all.”

buchanan.org/pa-98-0401.html

And these:

catholicleague.org/pius/piusxii_faqsprint.html

catholicleague.org/piusxii_and_the_holocaust/quesjud4.htm

catholicleague.org/piusxii_and_the_holocaust/quesjud5.htm

Persecution of the Christians

thecorner.org/hists/total/n-german.htm
Hitler was an atheist. He wanted to bring both the Catholic Church and the Protestant Church under his control.

(a) In July 1933, Hitler signed a Concordat with the Vatican in which the Catholic Church recognized the new regime and renounced all activity except that of a purely religious kind in Germany. In return, Hitler guaranteed the Catholic Church many of its historic rights, including the right to conduct local schools. Very soon, Hitler broke his promise.

In 1937, resenting the Nazi interference with the Catholic control of education and the youth movement, the Pope issued the encyclical known as “With Burning Sorrow” condemning the Nazi doctrine of state and racial superiority. From 1937 onwards, the Catholics offered serious resistance to the Nazi persecution of the Catholic Church.

We as Catholics have an obligation not to allow anti-Catholics to rewrite history to promote their own agenda. Not only was Pope Pius XII in many ways a lone voice against the Nazis, Catholics were persecuted by the Nazis as well. Why in the world would the Church promote a government that seeks to destroy it? It is illogical and untrue.

**It is sad to read the slanderous accusations against Pope Pius XII particularly. If you read the historical records of Jewish people who were so grateful to the Pope for his wartime opposition you can only feel disgusted by the disrespect he is getting today. A rabbi in Rome converted to Catholicism because of Pope Pius’ example during WWII. **

 

[mom_07]

AnAtheist:

That is not true. Catholics who opposed the Nazis were a prime target, but that applies to any political opposition, regardless of whether that opposition came from a Christian, Communist or other background. The only ones which were persecuted because of their religion were JWs and Jews.
Undeniably the Catholic Church endured difficult times in the 3rd Reich, but that too applies to any non-Nazi organisation. In fact, Hitler openly admired the Catholic Church, see “Mein Kampf”, Book 1, Chapter 5.?

Hitler was a narcissistic neo-pagan. He “admired” the Catholic Church? For what? He may have envied the structure, longevity and faithfulness of Catholics to the Church but he certainly was NOT a Eucharist adoring Catholic as some with agendas would like to depict him. What’s clear is that he hated the Church and called it " his last and greatest enemy". As far as “Mein Kampf”, Book 1, Chapter 5. here it is:
stormfront.org/books/mein_kampf/mkv1ch05.html

Can you tell me exactly where Hitler openly admires the Church here? I would rather not read Hitler’s rantings.

AnAtheist:

Then why was Hitler himself never excommunicated?

Because it was never confirmed he was baptized and what would be the point?

 

[Ani_Ibi]

CatholicPatriot:

Hello, I’m new here and joined in absolute need of a Catholic rebuttle to a webpage I came across.

Catholic Patriot. You are a new Catholic. Please, you are just a babe in arms. Do not allow yourself to be contaminated and weakened by anti-Catholic hatred. Try to strengthen your faith by reading the saints.

As time passes you will slowly compile a list in your mind of anti-Catholic lies, of which this Catholic Naziism fabrication is one of the most damaging. I am a bit too fatigued to unearth my references, but here is what I remember off the top of my head:

Pope Pius XII spoke unequivocally against the Nazis long before anybody else had the b-lls to do so. In no way did he condone Nazism.

Because of Pope Pius XII’s direct commands to European clergy, 850 000 Jews were rescued. 4000 Jews alone were given refuge at the Vatican where machines were assembled to turn out false identification and travelling papers so that Jews could flee danger.

Many Catholic priests, nuns, and laity lost their lives protecting Jews. And of course a good number of Catholics went to the camps along with Jews.

As the war escalated, the danger to the Jewish rescue endeavour also escalated. Pope Pius was careful not to openly defy the Nazis. If he were to openly defy the Nazis, the number of people (including Jews) to be sent to the camps would have been much higher than it was.

Middle class, Western, hate-mongering liberals claim that Pope Pius should have been condemning the Nazis loudly from the Vatican and over the radio waves every night. That is because when they shout and act out and make demands they enjoy freedom of speech and nothing will happen to them. If Pope Pius and the Church had acted in the same manner they would be dead, and many more Jews alongside them.

When the war escalated, Pope Pius XII decided to hide the documentation for the rescue effort. It was not sure how the war would end. If the Nazis won, then finding the documents would mean more deaths and would inflict serious damage to the Church. It was not until someone reminded Pope Paul VI, that the documents were uncovered again. This was in the 60’s. For decades there had been no information on the Church’s brave efforts in the War.

But consider this witness: After the War, the Chief Rabbi of Rome converted to Catholicism solely on the basis of witnessing the works of Catholics who gave pastoral care to the vulnerable among whom were many Jews. One thing is true. The Church did not do enough to save the Jews. If only one Jew had been killed (instead of 6 million) it would have been one too many. The sentiment of not having done enough to save the Jews testifies to our sorrow at all the lives lost at the hands of Nazis by our Jewish brothers and sisters. The shoa was a tsunami whose fury has not yet abated. The Jewish people were deeply injured by this horror. Many of them turned away from God.

Rest your soul. As a Catholic, never be afraid to read, question, challenge even your own understanding. If you are open to God, God will answer you loud and clear. God is not the author of confusion.

A good book to read is The Righteous. You can find it on the web. God bless you, Ani.

 

[CatholicPatriot]

Now that I know I’ve been deceived by a clever lie, I apologize. Heh, I guess God was testing my Faith or something of the sort, and thanks for the leading me to know the truth of the Church’s history during World War II.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

CatholicPatriot:

Now that I know I’ve been deceived by a clever lie, I apologize. Heh, I guess God was testing my Faith or something of the sort, and thanks for the leading me to know the truth of the Church’s history during World War II.

No. God was not testing you. He was only teaching you by drawing a question to your attention. You will know plainly when God is testing you.

 

[InnocentIII]

AnAtheist:

That is not entirely true. Some historical facts:
Germany signed a treaty, the “Reichskonkordat”, with the Church in 1933 granting it huge priviledges (like right to collect taxes § 13; Catholic education in public schools § 21; clergy has the same status as civil servants § 5 etc etc), which is still in place today. After the war other religious organisations, like the big evangelical church and the Jewish community, signed similar treaties.
The Nazis later violated parts of the treaty mainly § 31 (right to attend Mass and special protection of Catholic organisations). Pope Pius XI spoke against the Nazi regime in his encyclica of 1937. The later Pope Pius XII btw was the one who negotiated the treaty.

Granted. The Reichskonkordat was similar to the concordat signed with Mussolini. It was intended to provide some protection for the independance of the Catholic Church. As you point out the Nazis tended to interpret it as they saw fit. My point was that the Nazis never succeeded in absorbing the Catholic Church in the way they did the Lutheran Reichskirche.

 

[InnocentIII]

AnAtheist:

That is not true. Catholics who opposed the Nazis were a prime target, but that applies to any political opposition, regardless of whether that opposition came from a Christian, Communist or other background. The only ones which were persecuted because of their religion were JWs and Jews.
Undeniably the Catholic Church endured difficult times in the 3rd Reich, but that too applies to any non-Nazi organisation. In fact, Hitler openly admired the Catholic Church, see “Mein Kampf”, Book 1, Chapter 5.

He admired its organisation not its beliefs. He is not the first politician to do so.

Then why was Hitler himself never excommunicated?

Hitler left the Catholic Church as a young man in Vienna. He did not attend mass or the sacraments of the Church. He thus excommunicated himself. Formal excommunication is not required in such cases.

 

[ZAROVE]

TO answer the queasitons…

1. If the Church supported the Nazis, did God? ( NO!, I am not a racist. I’m not even white and I utterly hate racism.)

God dint suppory the Nazi’s, neither did the Church. well, it didnt zfter they elarned what the ral intent of the THird riech was.

Keep in midn, many of the Photos where before 1938, when WW2 began.

In 1932 Pope Pius the 12 Signed a OCncardt with Hitler. This is sued by some Athwists to prove that the Cahtlci Chruch, and by extension all Chrisyaisn, supported Hitler.

However, in 1932 the encyclopedia Brttaanica article had nothgin btu nice thigns ot say abotu him. He after all effectivly ended the epresison in Germany and eliminated most forms of poverty.So of coruse the CHruch supported him then…

It was agter his national socialism movement took a turn toward totolitarian dictatorship in 1935 that Pius began to queasiton him. In 1938 h was outright rejected.

Keep in mind, context of hisotry. Most athust will simpely say " He signed a treaty with Hitler therefore hes evil." and ignroe th hisotrical context and WHEN he signed it. Hitle didnt start out an obviosu monster.

1. Were/are some Catholic leaders Nazis?

Possibely. even probabely. And I know of some Bishops and proest that support Gay Marirage. This doesn make it the CHruch proper however…

3.Did the Church support Nazis in the 1st place?

Yes. when the primary goal was to brign Gemrnay out of the depression, enbd the strvign masses,a nd give everyoen jobs and human life meanign and dignity. That was 1932-1935. In 1938 Pius denounced Naziimsm as Anti-Christain.

Agaimn, Hitler didnt start out buildign COncentration camps and Gassing Jews. He started out eliviatign poverty…

 

[bones_IV]

AnAtheist:

That is not true.
Lair!

Catholics who opposed the Nazis were a prime target, but that applies to any political opposition, regardless of whether that opposition came from a Christian, Communist or other background. The only ones which were persecuted because of their religion were JWs and Jews.
Undeniably the Catholic Church endured difficult times in the 3rd Reich, but that too applies to any non-Nazi organisation. In fact, Hitler openly admired the Catholic Church, see “Mein Kampf”, Book 1, Chapter 5.

Then why was Hitler himself never excommunicated?

Hitler did that himself, An Atheist.
Excommunication means your prohibited from recieving the sacraments, that’s all it is.

 

[David_Paul]

Perhaps as many as 150,000 men of Jewish descent served in the Nazi Military machine. Included among them were many officers (some were generals and admirals). By both Nazi racial law and Israel’s Law of Return, they were Jewish.

Anyone ever suggest Jews supported Nazism?

Of course not. That would be absurd. The same applies to Catholics.

NBC Dateline did a piece on Hitler’s Jewish soldiers. More information at the University of Kansas here:

kansaspress.ku.edu/righit.html

 

[ZAROVE]

Lets take a look thte photos…

Hitler wth Archbishop Cesare Orsenigo, the papal nuncio in Berlin, 1935 - this photo was before Hitler even had Dacau built…

Ahain, the Ahtiests on the site are relyign on your ignroance of Hisotry… Hitler didnt seem evil at the time.

The Führer in Franken- OK, so the memorial happens to have a cross on it. Common for this tiem period and not even buolt when Hitler wa sin power. So this means what? Hitler honoued the military dead… so???

Hitler greets Müller the “Bishop of the Reich” and Abbot Schachleitner- what year? The Photo doesnt say…

Hitler Greets a Catholic Cardinal-See above. An undated Photo is not rlelay soemthign that matters…

Catholic Bishops giving the Nazi salute in honor of Hitler-Year???

The two photos below show the Christianity of Nazis. They were published by Nazis during Hitler’s reign:- Yeah and the allies had similar services…those evil allies…

Likewise, Hitler only allowed CHruch siervices that rpeached national socialism...

Nazi Graves

One must not forget that Germany represented the most Christianized country in the world in the 1930s and 40s. Nazi Christian soldiers died as Protestants and Catholics and their grave markers testified to their religion. - False. The Cross has long been a grave marker in all of europe, and even allied graves had crosses… only in the last two decares has this changed…

it proves nothing.

Mass meeting of the German Christian Movement
13 Nov.1933 - The photo shows a crowd. You widltn even knwo their Nazi’s if they didnt ell you… much less Chrisytain.

And again, thsi si 1933, so did these pepel objec tto ecoomic reforms that ended the depression?

Investiture of Reich Church Bishop, 1933- Yup. Good ol no beleifs wodul have us beleive that the Nazizs where gasisng Jews and showifn military might right formt he get go, and them thar evil cahtolics where righ their to supprot it…

Again, 1933 was before WW2 and before Dakau…

Hitler leaving Church-Unliek today, peopel attnedign HCurhces whernet branded evil btu wholesome. Hitler tried to cltuvate this iamge.

Hitler at Nazi party rally

Note the “Church of our Lady” in the background as if it represented the foundation of the party. Photo taken in Nuremberg, Germany (circa 1928).- Yeah and I have seen pics of my own hoem town with the couthouse visible. So?

Just because the largest buildign in town is in the photo doesnt mean that the CHruch endorses the rally, which was ten eyars before WW2 anyway…

That oens a stretch.

Church & State

Hitler in front of “Church of our Lady” in Nuremberg, Sept. 1934. Photographer, Heinrich Hoffmann. - again, the buildign was the largest in Nuremberge. Just so happenign to be in a shot of Hiotler means nothing.

Ive also seen Hitler in fornt of a Germna Ford outlet building. Does htat implciate Ford Motor COmpanies?

 

[ZAROVE]

Ludwig Müller, a Nazi sympathizer, was elected to the position of Reich Bishop in 1933 as Hitler attempted to unite regional Protestant churches under Nazi control. Hitler did not practice separation of Church & State.

Berlin, Germany, November 17, 1933.

• FInally oen evil guy. Note, it sone guy…

whom Htler storngarmed a position for…

Hitler signing his autograph for a Christian fan

(Source: Hitler in Seinen Bergen, Heinrich Hoffmann, Berlin, den 24.9.35)

• Most peopel bought but did not read Mein Kepft. even if she agreed with it, its one person.

Hitler praying

The caption reads: “Der ergreifende Abschlub der Kundgebung in Wien: Wir treten zum Beten…”

[The touching and emotional end of the rally in Vienna: Let us pray…]- AGain, Hotler manipualted peopels emptions. This doesnt prove anything. even Pagans pray.

Hitler’s mother’s grave

Klara Hitler was a pious Catholic mother who raised Hitler according to her beliefs.

Hitler felt grief-stricken over his mother’s death. She was buried alongside her husband in Linz, Austria. German soldiers here pay their respects to the grave in 1938.

Note the Christian cross on her monument.- Uhm. so? Hitlers mother was cahtolic, and most graves had crosses in this time period. It means what?

A Cardinal marches with the Nazis

Cardinal Michael Faulhaber marches between rows of SA men at a Nazi rally in Munich- He isnt marching. and simpely beign their as papal representative is not unisial…

Again pic undated.

Priests giving the Hitler salute

Priests giving the Hitler salute at a Catholic youth rally in the Berlin-Neukolln stadium in August 1933.- Again, 1933. what was Anzi Germany liek in 1933? well, even Jewish peopel vited for hitler in 1932, so you can guess that this implciaiton is based on confusion. Again, Hitler didnt appear to be a monster out the door.

Deutsche Christen (German Christians)- Theo forget ot mentoon that the Nazi’s forced the evangelical community to preahc Fascism. those that refised where arrested and executed. Lets pretend that didnt exist and the ecangelicans and cahtolcis just adored Hitler…

Gott Mit Uns (God With Us)

EM German Army belt buckle (Stamped steel, 1937 pattern, made by “R S & S” for Richard Sieper & Sohne Ludenscheid). Photo from the German Militaria Catalog.- Hitlers God. hwich he rpeeateldy told the SS was not Christainities…

Mother’s Cross (Mutterkreuz)- a vairent of the Iron Corss. The Corss was too cultual an idcon to remove form the german mind. It had no rleigiosu signifigance though.

Nazi Church Coin
(Mixing Church & State)
5 Mark, Potsdam Garrison Church

• The “Nazi Chruch COin” is actually a iwener republic CHruch coin. The Nazi’s had yet o change the moulds for th currency. The State CHuch in Gemrnay was the lutheren Chruch…

Nazi Chaplin’s Visor Hat- Oh so the Nazis had chaplins thus where evil??/ wait dotn we have chaplins to this day? And dint we in WW2???

So spoke Jesus Christ

A front page of the Nazi publication, Der Stuermer.

The headline reads, "Declaration of the Higher Clergy/So spoke Jesus Christ: You hypocrites who do not see the beam in your own eyes. (See Matthew 7:3-5)

The cartoon depicts a group of Hitler Youth marching forth to drive the forces of evil from the land. The caption under the cartoon reads, “We youth step happily forward facing the sun… With our faith we drive the devil from the land.”- Yes, tis called “Propoganda.” Most peoepl whrre Chrisyain and Hitler manipulated this. So?

When you see a cross

Page from the anti-Semitic German children’s book, “Der Giftpilz” (The Poisonous Mushroom)

The text reads, “When you see a cross, then think of the horrible murder by the Jews on Golgotha…”

(see 1 Thessalonians 2:14-15, “…the Jews: Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men”- Again, propoganda. Not however endorse dby the majority of ) Later rrested) Chistain leaders.

In the Beginning was the Word
(Am Anfang war das Wort)

A painting titled by Hermann Otto Hoyer depicts the glorification of Hitler in messiah-like fashion. The light over him falls on the listener. Hitler represents the bringer of light.

“In the Beginning was the Word” of course appears as the first words in the Gospel of John. - A painting of Hitler givign a speech is not hwoever proof of the CHruches invovlement with Hitler…

Hitler With Whip (acting like ‘Jesus’)- Again, hitlers words are not equel to Chruch invovlement…

 

[TobyLue]

Hmmmm, if anybody knows how to get in touch with Mel Gibson, maybe its time he made a movie telling the truth of how the Catholic Church helped the Jews during WWII. It would be great to see something like that…you know to debunk the fictional play “The Deputy” who some anti-catholics take as bible truth…

 

[mom_07]

Thank you Zarove for taking the time to do an individual breakdown of the photos. Anyone with an agenda can construct a website, post out of context photos, place captions under them and create scandals where there is no scandal. Not to mention those over achievers who have discovered the magic of Photoshop.

Terri

BTW: Are you posting from Europe or did you grow up there?

 

[mom_07]

TobyLue:

Hmmmm, if anybody knows how to get in touch with Mel Gibson, maybe its time he made a movie telling the truth of how the Catholic Church helped the Jews during WWII. It would be great to see something like that…you know to debunk the fictional play “The Deputy” who some anti-catholics take as bible truth…

Brillant idea.

Terri

 

[mom_07]

David_Paul:

Perhaps as many as 150,000 men of Jewish descent served in the Nazi Military machine. Included among them were many officers (some were generals and admirals). By both Nazi racial law and Israel’s Law of Return, they were Jewish.

Anyone ever suggest Jews supported Nazism?

Of course not. That would be absurd. The same applies to Catholics.

kansaspress.ku.edu/righit.html

Of course, it would be absurd. But then again it isn’t polite to accuse Jewish people of anything but it’s chic to bash Catholics. Sad.

 

[Karin]

mom 07:

Of course, it would be absurd. But then again it isn’t polite to accuse Jewish people of anything but it’s chic to bash Catholics. Sad.

LOL!!

 

[Eden]

CatholicPatriot:

Now that I know I’ve been deceived by a clever lie, I apologize. Heh, I guess God was testing my Faith or something of the sort, and thanks for the leading me to know the truth of the Church’s history during World War II.

This thread gives us a chance to think about the Catholic heroes of the Holocaust. Let’s make something good out of these anti-Catholic accusations by thinking about those who lived their faith during the Holocaust - sometimes with death as the penalty. Here are some articles:

columbia.edu/cu/augustine/arch/heroes.htm

holycross.edu/departments/history/vlapomar/hiatt/martyrs.htm

eastrenfrewshire.gov.uk/holocaust/holocaust_remembrance_2004_-other_victims/holocaust_remembrance_2004-resistance/holocaust_remembrance_2004-_oskar_schindler.htm

I want to mention that while the Church’s position was against the Nazis:

As early as April 1935, as Vatican Secretary of State, Cardinal Pacelli addressed 250,000 pilgrims at Lourdes: “These [Nazi] ideologues are in fact only miserable plagiarizers who dress up ancient error in new tinsel. It matters little whether they rally round the flag of the social revolution…or are possessed by the superstition of race and blood.” He was responsible for the final wording of Pius XI’s March 1937 encyclical, Mit brennender Sorge (“With burning sorrow”), and made it more strongly antiracist. The encyclical, the first ever written in German, was read in all German churches on Palm Sunday; the Nazi Foreign Office characterized it as "a call to battle…as it calls upon Catholic citizens to rebel against the authority of the Reich."2

reallove.net/articleshow9b9b.html?ID=45

there were certainly Catholics who acted in reprehensible ways against the Jewish people just as there were Protestants, atheists, etc. Sometimes Pope John Paul II’s apology to the Jewish people is used against us by people who don’t understand his intention.

By the way, I found another article about Pope Pius XII. This article from Rabbi David G. Dalin states that “even before Pius XII died in 1958, the charge that his papacy had been friendly to the Nazis was circulating in Europe, a piece of standard Communist agitprop against the West.”

catholiceducation.org/articles/persecution/pch0024.html

This one directly addresses the recent smear campaign against Pope Pius XII:

worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=42406

 

[bones_IV]

I sent that guy of the site an email. Here is the jist of what he said.

He said,
If you found the site on Christian Cannibals morally offensive, then “good” if that’s what you mean by cannabists. You should feel offended, because I didn’t make up the idea of transubstantiation, (eating the flesh, blood of Jesus Christ). It came from Catholics. By the very definition of Cannalism, the definition describes the Eucharist. The shame goes on you for believing such weird practices. If you don’t realize that, read the Council of Trent, the thirteenth session and you will see that the arguement holds the Church’s own tenents. As far as Christian beliefs leading to Extremism goes, well the history of Christianity proves you wrong. So no, I won’t retract my statement.
The Catholic Church, and its priests, did participate in the Holocaust, so you can’t claim this an atheist propaganda or whatever your accusations are.
As far as Pius XII and Nazi support, perhaps you don’t realize he signed a condordat with Hitler, which gave the Catholic Church certain rights during the Third Reich. Many Catholic priests turned in Jews for the Nazis. The history is clear on that.
I have done my homework, you have not…
It is you my friend who should feel ashamed. I feel shame for you in believing such nonsense. And because your address contains rage and hate (always a property of Christian Extremism) you’ve lost your welcome. Moreover, this site, is dedicated to non-believers, not believers. It is for this reason that I have blocked your address will be blocked from hate-mail from people like you. I always get the last word here(and if you weasel in here with another name, your cowardly address, will be met with a block and silence.) I hope you’ve learned some dignity and reason and thanks for making my day!

Folks all I can say is that this letter is qiute laughable and idiocity on his part. This just goes to show you that people like this are very close minded.

This is his email, to protest. Make your opinions known.

sigma@nobeliefs.com