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Rand_Al_Thor
Guest
What lie? The lie that the Church supported the Nazis.
You have been talking this entire time about WWII and the Nazis…I referred to that as the Holocaust.
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You have been talking this entire time about WWII and the Nazis…I referred to that as the Holocaust.
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Psalm45_9
Guest
mom 07:
- Being an anti-Catholic Troll on the forums
- Being a Catholic Troll on the forums. Ex. starting threads or making posts contiunally on subjects that are banned such as Sedevacantism, anti-Vatican II propaganda, things that go against the teachings of the Catholic Church, etc.
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AnAtheist
Guest
Rand Al'Thor:
I said, the Church signed a treaty with the Nazis, and that is a historical fact.
No, I was talking about 1933, well before the war. I also mentioned that the Nazis broke parts of that treaty later.
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Axion
Guest
And Britain, France America and Russia signed several treaties with the Nazis. This is a historical fact.
The main protestant Churches went further and actively co-operated with the Nazis - another historical fact.
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InnocentIII
Guest
It always amuses me as a student of the Nazi period how atheists want to beat the Church over the head for co-operating with the Nazis but never want to accept responsibility themselves. The majority of Nazi leaders were anti-christian atheists or neo-pagans. Does this make atheists and neo-pagans responsible for Hitler? Are all atheists tarred with the Nazi brush because some of them were Nazi leaders, apologists and helpers. Come on … what’s sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander … unless your real purpose is to slander the Church. But then that is your purpose isn’t it!
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gus
Guest
LSK if I new you were Italian I wouln’t of been so curt
My patience can become a little worn and My Italian
love of an agrument can be a fault. I am working on it.
I am sorry.
My patience can become a little worn and My Italian
love of an agrument can be a fault. I am working on it.
I am sorry.
G
Gottle_of_Geer
Guest
Hello, I’m new here and joined in absolute need of a Catholic rebuttle to a webpage I came across.
I ask you not to visit this website if you are not ready for a shock
nobeliefs.com/nazis.htm
Meh, I’ve been a Catholic for just a few months now and I have no doubt that I’m where God wants me to be,( Baptized in the Roman Church but seperated from God when my mother married a Methodist who enrolled me in a Baptist school but came back when Pope John Paul II died ) but, quite unreadily, I stumbled across the webpage posted above. Well, my questions are
I hope I can read some answers that’ll put my soul to rest.
- If the Church supported the Nazis, did God? ( NO!, I am not a racist. I’m not even white and I utterly hate racism.)
- Were/are some Catholic leaders Nazis?
3.Did the Church support Nazis in the 1st place?
The Church in Germany was not unsupportive of the Party after 1940: Cardinal Bertram sat in the Reichstag as as a Party member. This was after the bishops had withdrawn the excommunication formerly in place for any Catholic voting for the Party: such a ban could hardly remain, given the Concordat of 1934.
Some prominent Party members were Catholics at least in cultural origin: Hitler, Himmler, Goering, Goebbels, Reinhard Heydrich. Von Papen was a practising Catholic. Others, such as Bormann, were Lutherans - again, in cultural origin. As for people like Julius Streicher, Hans Frank, and other second-rankers and members of the entourages of various more prominent Nazis, I don’t know
It’s essential to realise that whereas we might tend to look back at the war and see it as intimately connected with the attempt to exterminate the whole of European Jewry, this was not how matters looked in 1940: the German Catholic bishops were far more more concerned with the well- being and survival of the Catholic Church, than with the sufferings of the Jews - for whom, in any case, they had little sympathy, as the Jews were popularly associated with Communism, and of course, “Deicide”. A contemporary account of the “Persecution of the [RC] Church in the Third Reich”, which ends in 1940, says not a word about the Kristallnacht or the other miseries suffered by the Jews: only about Catholic troubles.
And whereas Communism had been condemned in 1937 by Pius XI as a “satanic plague”, Nazism, for all its less pleasant activities, had won great popularity in Germany: it was nationalist, anti-Jewish, anti-Communist, authoritarian, placed great emphasis on discipline and order, and promised national renewal after the humiliation (due, naturally, to Jewish treachery - Hitler’s fantasy of a “stab in the back”) of the peace settlement that followed WW1. Hitler was regarded as a national saviour, almost as a Christ-figure - nothing less. And in 1940, the Nazi Messiah did very well militarily: France, Belgium, Holland, all collapsed: partly because of treason, as in Belgium.
Hitler was only one of many Fascist leaders - Salazar, Franco, Mussolini, & their fellow-Fascists in Brazil, Croatia, Romania, the UK, the USA, weren’t all pariahs: that came later. But he was arguably the most charismatic - some how. The Papacy was not unfriendly to Fascism (unless it disagreed with the CC) - Pius XI was conspicuous in not condemning the rape of Ethiopia by Mussolini; and Mussolini was on excellent terms with Archbishop Schuster of Milan (who was beatified a few years ago).
As for Hitler’s anti-Semitism: lots of people hated or suspected or despised Jews - so his measures against them did not always meet with international condemnation. The Civilta Cattolica (the semi-official organ of the Holy See) was more anti-Semitic than Pius XI ever was: see Pinchas Lapide, The Last Three Popes and the Jews, for details. Hitler had plenty of sympathisers, fellow-travellers, & dupes - and many of them were Catholic. Even in Germany.
There is no danger that the activities of Pius XII will go unmentioned - but, not all Catholic ecclesiastics were quite so generous as he was: it would be lying propaganda to suggest that the CC’s record was lily-white - it was not. Lapide, who speaks so favourably of him, is less complimentary about the anti-Semitism of the CC before the war. Lily-white histories are not possible in a world inhabited by sinners. ##
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asteroid
Guest
Just a personal note.
One of my teachers in RCIA was born in and spent her early years in Germany. Because of their catholic faith they were eventually imprisoned by the Nazis, as were many Catholics.
This shows, on the level of the common people, the relationship between Catholics and the Nazi government.
One of my teachers in RCIA was born in and spent her early years in Germany. Because of their catholic faith they were eventually imprisoned by the Nazis, as were many Catholics.
This shows, on the level of the common people, the relationship between Catholics and the Nazi government.
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2shelbys
Guest
Wow, I find it a little surprising that these pictures have resulted in so many posts since they really mean nothing. Hitler came to power in a country that was roughly 50% Catholic and 50% Protestant. OF COURSE he attended church events. OF COURSE church officials attended government functions. That’s the way countries work. Bill Clinton attanded synagogue and wore a yamaka, did that make him Jewish? NO. He also attanded various Christian churches. Did that necessarily make him Christian? NO. Did it mean that those respective religions formally supported him? NO. This is just another case of someone misrepresenting perfectly normal, explainable events to support their particular beliefs (or in this case, lack of) because they have trouble finding legitimate support for them.
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wcknight
Guest
Actually I think Catholics were well in the minority in Germany, while it was dominant in most other countries in Europe. I think Germany was largely Protestant.
The Concordant with Hitler was well before anyone knew of Hitler as a monster. It was in defense of Church interests in Germany, and to protect its rights. 20-20 hindsight is great if anyone could see the horrors to come. The more important facts are how the Church dealt with Hitler after it found out about him.
In the 1930’s Hilter was the hero of saving Germany from a basket case economy. People were starving thanks to the punitive damages placed on them after WWI by the allies.
How Pope Pius XI and Pius XII dealt with Hitler was nothing short of saintly. They minimized the horrors as much as humanly possible when dealing with a madman.
For atheists to take pre-war propaganda photos and then try to pawn them off as proving Catholic culpability is truly dispicable. Why do they not show the thousands of fake baptismal certificates that saved thousands of jews ? or why do they not show photos of the Jewish swiss guards that the Pope enlisted and why not show the decrees that the Pope send out to Catholic Churches, monastaries, and convents ordering them to provide sanctuary for jews.
The Pope single handedly did more to oppose Hitler for the jews than any other person in all of Western civilizatuion. It is a complete mockery and sham that this mud slinging is carried out by these nit wit web site. They want to call us hate mongers but they continue to allow these scurrelous smire campaign to exist. Let’s tell the whole story and not just what happened before the war.
Telling half truths is same as telling a lie. IF you are afraid to put the whole picture out there, then you should not put a small part of it out there at all.
wc
The Concordant with Hitler was well before anyone knew of Hitler as a monster. It was in defense of Church interests in Germany, and to protect its rights. 20-20 hindsight is great if anyone could see the horrors to come. The more important facts are how the Church dealt with Hitler after it found out about him.
In the 1930’s Hilter was the hero of saving Germany from a basket case economy. People were starving thanks to the punitive damages placed on them after WWI by the allies.
How Pope Pius XI and Pius XII dealt with Hitler was nothing short of saintly. They minimized the horrors as much as humanly possible when dealing with a madman.
For atheists to take pre-war propaganda photos and then try to pawn them off as proving Catholic culpability is truly dispicable. Why do they not show the thousands of fake baptismal certificates that saved thousands of jews ? or why do they not show photos of the Jewish swiss guards that the Pope enlisted and why not show the decrees that the Pope send out to Catholic Churches, monastaries, and convents ordering them to provide sanctuary for jews.
The Pope single handedly did more to oppose Hitler for the jews than any other person in all of Western civilizatuion. It is a complete mockery and sham that this mud slinging is carried out by these nit wit web site. They want to call us hate mongers but they continue to allow these scurrelous smire campaign to exist. Let’s tell the whole story and not just what happened before the war.
Telling half truths is same as telling a lie. IF you are afraid to put the whole picture out there, then you should not put a small part of it out there at all.
wc
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JackmanUSC
Guest
I think Hitler was originally from a Catholic Family, hence Austrian roots, but let’s just say if he took the “What Kind of Catholic are You?” Quiz he would rate as a recovering Catholic.
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JOHNYJ
Guest
Austria a Catholic country produced better Nazi’s than Germany.Hitler was elected Chancellor ! Most Catholic opposition to the nazi’s was on an individual basis. The institutional church often supported the Nazi party in the 30’s.
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Sarah_Jane
Guest
Individual basis?
Mit Brennender Sorge
Encyclical by Pope Pius XI
vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xi/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xi_enc_14031937_mit-brennender-sorge_en.html
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Sherlock
Guest
What proof do you have of that? Documents, please…and a treaty does not equal “support”, as is certainly evidenced by the fact that the Nazi party signed treaties with European countries that did not support the Nazi party.
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Axion
Guest
Gottle of Geer said:## The Church in Germany was not unsupportive of the Party after 1940: Cardinal Bertram sat in the Reichstag as as a Party member. This was after the bishops had withdrawn the excommunication formerly in place for any Catholic voting for the Party: such a ban could hardly remain, given the Concordat of 1934.
Some prominent Party members were Catholics at least in cultural origin: Hitler, Himmler, Goering, Goebbels, Reinhard Heydrich. Von Papen was a practising Catholic. Others, such as Bormann, were Lutherans - again, in cultural origin. As for people like Julius Streicher, Hans Frank, and other second-rankers and members of the entourages of various more prominent Nazis, I don’t know
I find it amazing that, considering the Protestant Church in Germany’s almost total capitulation to the Nazi party, that protestants and others have the cheek to start making accusations and implications about the Catholics!
At least the Catholic Church condemned anti-Jewish racism in Nazi germany. The protestant church (even the Confessing Church) allied itself with the Nazis and banned all non-aryans from holding positions in the Church!
Again the protestant regions of germany voted most strongly for the Nazis and the Catholic regions had the lowest Nazi vote.
Most of them, however, were protestant.
Hitler, in his manifesto, Mein Kampf, listed Martin Luther as one of Germany’s great historic reformers. In Luther’s 1543 book On the Jews and Their Lies, Luther advocated the burning of synagogues and schools, the deportation of Jews, and many other measures that resemble the actions later taken by the Nazis.
Protestant churches made no comment on the Nazis’ growing anti-Jewish activities. Many Protestants opposed the governments of the Weimar Republic in the 1920s which they saw as coalitions between the Socialists and the Catholic Centre party. In 1932, many German Protestants joined together to form the German Christian Movement which enthusiastically supported Nazi propaganda, and sought to join Church and State. 3,000 of the 17,000 Protestant pastors in Germany were to join the movement. Hitler wished to unite a Protestant church of 28 different federations into one nationalist body. Pastor Ludwig Muller, the leader of the German Christian Movement, was soon appointed Hitler’s advisor on religious affairs. He was elected Reich’s Bishop in charge of the German Protestant churches in 1933.
An “Aryan Paragraph” was introduced to the constitution which stated that no one of non-Aryan background, or married to anyone of non-Aryan background, could serve as either a pastor or church official. Pastors and officials who had married a non-Aryan were to be dismissed. Much of the Lutheran and Methodist establishment in Germany had fallen behind Hitler in his promise to oppose Bolshevism and instability.
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LSK
Guest
NO - that’s ok! Shoot, I learned to make my posts a bit more concise and that is not a bad thing to learn.
I should have remembered that it was Capernicus’ theory that caused the problem and that there is more to the ‘Gallileo Controversy’ than simply 'He said something we don’t understand - HERETIC!".
Anyway, I guess what I meant to put forward is that we learn so much about the material world around us as science and knowledge advances that I can understand how if someone read the Bible is a ‘literal’ manner as opposed to how Catholics are taught to read Holy Scripture it could lead to problems of faith.
There were probably people who participated in the horrors of war who were Baptized Catholic. Were they living their Catholic faith? Should the Church as a whole be condemned because of their actions? There are men and women of the Southern States of the US who are members of the Baptist Church and other protestant denominations who participated in lynchings, rapes and blowing up churches with children inside. Do we condemn their Christian Sects because of this behavior by their members?
I know this can be a difficult question. Some Christian or pseudo-Christian sects do promote hatred and violence (Think of Matthew Hale as an example) and those sects should be condemned by the rest of our Churches for the heresies they preach in the name of Jesus Christ. I read the recent article in People Magazine about the Lost Boys from Colorado, City and it broke my heart. Those children being tossed aside in the name of JESUS? C’mon.
I know that, because of all of you, I have had to read more, do more research, pray more and be willing to be taught by my betters - and as a result, I have fallen in love with the Holy Mother Church. Thank you! Thank you ALL!!:dancing:
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tunemiester
Guest
might I suggest pat, you go to the web site books for roman catholics.com
There is a book you can get for probably around twenty-five bucks or so.It’s written by Rev John M Lenz and its title is “Christ in Dachau”.
This book was written by a survivor of that concentration/extermination camp. He also tells of the orders issued by the nazi top leaders (goebels and company) that the only way to win the war is to destroy the Catholic Church we’re talking 1938 these orders came out.
Dachau became “the camp” for catholic priests to be sent. This should help you and give you some answers to your questions.
It’s a very gripping book !
CatholicPatriot:
There is a book you can get for probably around twenty-five bucks or so.It’s written by Rev John M Lenz and its title is “Christ in Dachau”.
This book was written by a survivor of that concentration/extermination camp. He also tells of the orders issued by the nazi top leaders (goebels and company) that the only way to win the war is to destroy the Catholic Church we’re talking 1938 these orders came out.
Dachau became “the camp” for catholic priests to be sent. This should help you and give you some answers to your questions.
It’s a very gripping book !
Hello, I’m new here and joined in absolute need of a Catholic rebuttle to a webpage I came across.
I ask you not to visit this website if you are not ready for a shock
nobeliefs.com/nazis.htm
Meh, I’ve been a Catholic for just a few months now and I have no doubt that I’m where God wants me to be,( Baptized in the Roman Church but seperated from God when my mother married a Methodist who enrolled me in a Baptist school but came back when Pope John Paul II died ) but, quite unreadily, I stumbled across the webpage posted above. Well, my questions are
I hope I can read some answers that’ll put my soul to rest.
- If the Church supported the Nazis, did God? ( NO!, I am not a racist. I’m not even white and I utterly hate racism.)
- Were/are some Catholic leaders Nazis?
3.Did the Church support Nazis in the 1st place?
I
InnocentIII
Guest
There is a French film “Au revoir, les enfants” which deals exactly with this issue. The priests/brothers hide jewish boys in a Catholic school and end up paying for it with their lives.
M
Montie_Claunch
Guest
The NAZIS wern’t Christian. I was watching a documentary on the History channel some time ago and preist from the time said that the NAZIs thought of Jesus as nothing more than the and I quote “illegetament child of a Jewish” girl. The NAZIS are NAZIS and Catholics are Catholics and never the 'Twain shall meet. And Tell them that there as more Black KKK Klansmen than there were Real “Catholic Nazis”.
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