Catholic opponents of same-sex marriage - would you ban all marriage not recognised by the Church?

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If same sex marriage became legal, you can be sure that the Catholic Church would be sued from coast to coast by same sex couples who want the Church to marry them. Why would they be sued? Not because the couples are Catholic, but because they wish to see her ground under their heel. I am sure many same sex couples would not have an interest in this, but the ‘Roseanne Barr’ folks, with money and hate, would love to take on their ‘enemy’, not satisfied with gaining their ‘right’.

The claim “separation of Church and State” would not be broadcast by those who love to use that phrase today to kick the Church out of every building today.
Your fears have no basis in law. The law requires equal protection under the law as against the state, but private organizations are permitted to discriminate all they please. No lawsuit from a gay couple seeking to compel the Churh to marry them would ever make it past the initial pleading.
 
Really? When did the definition of marriage legally change with respect to gender? To the best of my knowledge, it has only happened in the past 5 years or so and only in specific areas.The OP didn’t seem to think so.

As much as I love the Church, I don’t have any desire to force others to follow her rules. My objection stands.

Peace

Tim
There has been a steady change in legally defined gender roles within marriage. Beginning with property rights, then progressing through child custody issues. There was a time when spouses sued each other for divorce, and had the burden to prove that the other spouse had violated their filial duties. Things like infidelity applied to both parties. But there were specific duties based on gender. For example, it was a woman’s duty to relocate with her husband, whenever he decided to move the household. Failure to do so was legal grounds for divorce. This is just one of many gender based duties of a wife.

Today, there is no legal gender distinction in marriage, at least in any jurisdiction which I am aware of. The legal theory which has been successfully advanced to date, is that because there is no longer a legal distinction of duties or privileges based on gender in the marriage contract, then it follows that it is improper to discriminate as to which gender partners may choose to enter the contract. When there were gender distinction of obligations, under the law, then it made perfect sense to discriminate based on gender.

Therefore, the arguments advanced against gay marriage are religious, rather than legal, which was my point. Nothing wrong with advancing a moral or religious argument. I just think that the discussion gets a bit muddled there. Nobody is suggesting infringing on religious rights. The proponents of gay marriage are advocating a change an expansion of rights as to who may enter a secular contract.

Do you have a legal theory to advance which would oppose this view, or are your objections only on religious grounds?

Here is a brief paper in the University or Washington Law Review, if you are interested in this argument: digitalcommons.law.wustl.edu/lawreview/vol89/iss4/1/

Also, Judge Walker’s prop 8 decision is a concise explication of this theory. It is readily available, and a quick read. He proceeds from the 1860’s to the present, first establishing that marriage is a civil right, and then advancing his theory, as outlined above, in more detail.

Even thought some have disagreed with his decision, I have yet to read anything which successfully attacks his legal reasoning.
 
I have a question for Catholic opponents of same-sex marriage - would you given the political practicality of such a move, also ban other marriages deemed not to be marriages by the Church - such as the ‘marriages’ of divorced people, or the ‘marriages’ of baptized Catholics outside the Church? if so, I assume for the same reason you oppose gays being able to marry each other. If not, why not, and why are you not campaigning for a ban?
Other marriages that are not allowed by the Church are still marriages. My religion doesn’t allow me to get married to a man who is presumed married to another woman. If he and I went to to justice of the peace and got married, we would be married, and I would be in big trouble with God. I would be in an invalid, non-sacramental marriage. But I would still be married. A homosexual union is not a marriage. I could claim I was married all I wanted but it would be a lie, really a joke. So no, I would not make non-Catholic marriages illegal. I might consider putting some restrictions on secular marriage though that don’t currently exist. For example, a waiting period of perhaps two years between getting a divorce and getting remarried. But that’s another thread.
 
If same sex marriage became legal, you can be sure that the Catholic Church would be sued from coast to coast by same sex couples who want the Church to marry them. Why would they be sued? Not because the couples are Catholic, but because they wish to see her ground under their heel. I am sure many same sex couples would not have an interest in this, but the ‘Roseanne Barr’ folks, with money and hate, would love to take on their ‘enemy’, not satisfied with gaining their ‘right’.

The claim “separation of Church and State” would not be broadcast by those who love to use that phrase today to kick the Church out of every building today.
Don’t think this is a real concern…divorced people who want to get married in the Catholic church have not filed suit against the church for not allowing them to be married…why would same-sex marriage be any different? Has suit been filed by divorced persons to try to force the Catholic church to marry them?
 
The government shouldn’t be in the business of marriage in the fist place. The US Constiuion requires equal protection under he law for all persons. If you want to uphold the US Constitution, then either gay marriage must be recognized, or get the government out of marriage altogether. But to permit straight marriage without allowing same sex marriage is,as anybody who understands Constitutional law knows, discriminatory and a violation of the fourteenth amendment.
This^

Marriage is an institution of the Church, not the State, and therefore is protected under the First Amendment. The word “marriage” should be removed from the legal lexicon, in my humble opinion (and as it is in some countries). If you want a state-recognised union, you go to the justice of the peace and get a license of union or whatever you call it. If you want a Church recognised marriage, you go to your religious body and get one. This way, noone can squeel about their “rights” being “oppressed”, and noone needs to be concerned about government intrusion into church business.
 
There has been a steady change in legally defined gender roles within marriage. Beginning with property rights, then progressing through child custody issues. There was a time when spouses sued each other for divorce, and had the burden to prove that the other spouse had violated their filial duties. Things like infidelity applied to both parties. But there were specific duties based on gender. For example, it was a woman’s duty to relocate with her husband, whenever he decided to move the household. Failure to do so was legal grounds for divorce. This is just one of many gender based duties of a wife.

Today, there is no legal gender distinction in marriage, at least in any jurisdiction which I am aware of. The legal theory which has been successfully advanced to date, is that because there is no longer a legal distinction of duties or privileges based on gender in the marriage contract, then it follows that it inappropriate to discriminate as to which gender partners may choose to enter the contract. When there were gender distinction of obligations, under the law, then it made perfect sense to discriminate based on gender.

Therefore, the arguments advanced against gay marriage are religious.

Do you have a legal theory to advance which would oppose this view, or are your objections only on religious grounds?

Here is a brief paper in the University or Washington Law Review, if you are interested in this argument: digitalcommons.law.wustl.edu/lawreview/vol89/iss4/1/

Also, Judge Walker’s prop 8 decision is a concise explication of this theory. It is readily available, and a quick read. He proceeds from the 1860’s to the present, first establishing that marriage is a civil right, and then advancing his theory, as outlined above, in more detail.

Even thought some have disagreed with his decision, I have yet to read anything which successfully attacks his legal reasoning.
Right. Because women can now own property and file for divorce, men are not needed in a marriage. That is the problem with that legal theory.

I’m not a lawyer, but when I read cr*p like that, I just wonder about where that will take us. How can that not lead to extremes not now accepted, like man/boy marriages? All it takes is a further evolution of the definition of marriage to change the age of consent. It may sound ridiculous now, but same-sex “marriage” sounded that way little more than a decade ago.

I guess lawyers can justify anything.

Peace

Tim
 
Your fears have no basis in law. The law requires equal protection under the law as against the state, but private organizations are permitted to discriminate all they please. No lawsuit from a gay couple seeking to compel the Churh to marry them would ever make it past the initial pleading.
And yet photographers have been sued for refusing to photograph same sex weddings. Yes, there would certainly be a lot of lawsuits intended to force acceptance of homosexual marriage universally.
 
And yet photographers have been sued for refusing to photograph same sex weddings. Yes, there would certainly be a lot of lawsuits intended to force acceptance of homosexual marriage universally.
Those businesses which applied for business licenses to serve the public have been sued…not religious institutions…apples and oranges I would say.🙂
 
Those businesses which applied for business licenses to serve the public have been sued…not religious institutions…apples and oranges I would say.🙂
For now. Like the HHS mandate, houses of worship will be given an exemption, while private business will be forced to violate their religion and their consciences or go out of business. It’s only a matter of time before the homosexual lobby works to get the churches included.
 
This^

Marriage is an institution of the Church, not the State, and therefore is protected under the First Amendment. The word “marriage” should be removed from the legal lexicon, in my humble opinion (and as it is in some countries). If you want a state-recognised union, you go to the justice of the peace and get a license of union or whatever you call it. If you want a Church recognised marriage, you go to your religious body and get one. This way, noone can squeel about their “rights” being “oppressed”, and noone needs to be concerned about government intrusion into church business.
I disagree. It is obvious that marriage has been an institution of the state since one has to get a license in order to get married. The question is, what benefit to the state is there if the state recognizes marriage? Society does see a benefit if people commit to a legal bond and agree to raise households with children. That was the original reason married persons were given a special concession on their income tax. I think there is a strong arguement that it is beneficial to the state for then to give couples an incentive to be married. However, if the counterpoint to that is that people must be forced to recognize unions that clearly aren’t marriages as marriages, then this option would be worse than the benefits to society from encouraging traditional marriage.
 
I have a question for Catholic opponents of same-sex marriage - would you given the political practicality of such a move, also ban other marriages deemed not to be marriages by the Church - such as the ‘marriages’ of divorced people, or the ‘marriages’ of baptized Catholics outside the Church? if so, I assume for the same reason you oppose gays being able to marry each other. If not, why not, and why are you not campaigning for a ban?
You are comparing apples and oranges and their is no logical correlation between the two, assuming you are posing the question in the context of the Catholic faith. This is not just some simple legal matter to the Church as it is to the secular world we live in. The same-sex marriage issue also has little to do with sacramental marriage vs. non-sacramental marriage. It is a matter of natural law and natural order. The Catechism of the Catholic Church sums up the primary objection of the Church to same-sex ‘marriage’:
ARTICLE 7
THE SACRAMENT OF MATRIMONY
1601 “The matrimonial covenant, by which a man and a woman establish between themselves a partnership of the whole of life, is by its nature ordered toward the good of the spouses and the procreation and education of offspring; this covenant between baptized persons has been raised by Christ the Lord to the dignity of a sacrament.”
It goes against the fundamental tenets of Catholic morality and the theology of the body. That’s the real issue.
 
And yet photographers have been sued for refusing to photograph same sex weddings.
When? What happened?
Lawsuits are not magic, there has to be some basis in law for a judge to make a decision.
 
I have a question for Catholic opponents of same-sex marriage - would you given the political practicality of such a move, also ban other marriages deemed not to be marriages by the Church - such as the ‘marriages’ of divorced people, or the ‘marriages’ of baptized Catholics outside the Church? if so, I assume for the same reason you oppose gays being able to marry each other. If not, why not, and why are you not campaigning for a ban?
Hiya,

The question is somewhat erroneous.

The Church isnt interested in banning peoples marriages because they are not Catholics. It is against gay marriage because it sensibly objects to the redefinition of marriage.

Regarding “gay marriage”. Gay relationships are fundamentally not comparable to heterosexual relationships. This is why people object to gay marriage - its exactly the same as the Government legislating to force people to call a dog a horse.

A (heterosexual) marriage is:
  • a relationship characterised by the attraction of opposites
  • a relationship strengthened by the complimentary nature of opposites
  • a relationship which is open to the possibility of creating new life, via the physical expression of the couples love for one another
  • a relationship which enjoys a natural and important social role
  • the fundamental building block of human societies
Gay relationships are none of these things. Indeed, gay relationships are the antithesis of these things.

So we can see that, other than word play (devaluing the word “marriage”) changing the law has no real effect, as anyone with half a brain can still see the relationships are not at all similar or comparable.

Only on the most vague and reductive level possible - 2 beings who love one another - could you even begin to compare homosexual relationships to heterosexual ones. The same vague, reductive level which would include a man and his dog, and a brother and sister for example.

Suggestions of calling gay relationships marriages is not because they are similar to heterosexual relationships, but rather is to meet an emotional need existing among some gay people*.

(*They think they would feel better about themselves if they were allowed to pretend they were the same as heterosexual people. Thats not a pleasant thing to have to say, but its the truth).

At the end of the day, there are a whole host of circumstances for heterosexual couples. Catholic weddings, non-Catholic weddings, divorcees, invalid marriages, blah blah blah. All circumstances are different and merit individual consideration.

But at the end of the day, we are all still talking about one man and one woman, in these cases. Sure, maybe the Church doesnt recognise some as valid - but it has no right (or desire) to remove peoples freedom of conscience. It would be obviously be absurd for the Catholic Church to object to two muslims getting married, for example, because it wasnt a Catholic wedding.

Most people agree what marriage is, they just have different ideas and values as to how it is created etc. But they are still talking about fundamentally the same thing.

In contrast, a gay relationship is something entirely different - as above.

The whole affair is exceptionally orwellian. It is, as stated, similar to the Government making a law which means we have to refer to dogs as horses. Not good.
 
When? What happened?
Lawsuits are not magic, there has to be some basis in law for a judge to make a decision.
scottfillmer.com/2008/07/06/christian-photographer-refused-gay-wedding/

The photographer lost and it was on the grounds that refusing to work the wedding because it was an immoral wedding was violating the couples civil rights. At first I assumed it was a contract issue, but that doesn’t appear to be the case. The photographer declined the contract in the first place. This is what we have to look forward to.

PS- There is evidence that one of the lesbian in question actually sought out this photographer by calling several photographers until one refused to work her ceremony.
 
For now. Like the HHS mandate, houses of worship will be given an exemption, while private business will be forced to violate their religion and their consciences or go out of business. It’s only a matter of time before the homosexual lobby works to get the churches included.
Conjecture…can’t base laws on “coulda, woulda, shoulda, might happen…could happen”🤷
 
Conjecture…can’t base laws on “coulda, woulda, shoulda, might happen…could happen”🤷
“will” happen. We already see private businesses losing their freedom of religion. The homosexual lobby’s tolerance of religion is extremely limited.
 
Right. Because women can now own property and file for divorce, men are not needed in a marriage. That is the problem with that legal theory.

I’m not a lawyer, but when I read cr*p like that, I just wonder about where that will take us. How can that not lead to extremes not now accepted, like man/boy marriages? All it takes is a further evolution of the definition of marriage to change the age of consent. It may sound ridiculous now, but same-sex “marriage” sounded that way little more than a decade ago.

I guess lawyers can justify anything.

Peace

Tim
The argument has enough merit, that it has been sent up to the US Supreme Court, though the 9th Circuit narrowed the grounds. The decision has been upheld twice in the Circuit Court.

Yes, well we do have an adversarial legal system. Each side presents its evidence and its theory, and the courts rule. That is precisely why we have courts, to settle disputes when people disagree.

I read all the briefs (of which there were many), and I followed the trial of Prop 8 in the CA State Supreme Court. I have only read the decisions, and have not bothered with the briefs in the 9th Circuit. It was remarkable how poorly the CA Atty General argued his case in the State Court, and it was equally remarkable how ill prepared the anti gay marriage counsel was in the Federal Court case. One could argue that the respective decisions had a lot to do with the competence of the counsel on each side. The Prop 8 side has two very accomplished and respected attorneys litigating it for them, and they are well funded.

In this case, there is a group which feels that its human and civil rights are being violated, on the other side is a group which disagrees. Polls indicate that the country is evenly split, within the accuracy of the polling methods. Elections are very close in many states.

You may not like the system, but what else would you propose to settle differences? This issue is not going away, and so it needs to be settled somehow. That is the role of the courts. Surely, the Congress is less trustworthy than the courts. But I also am disappointed by the ever increasing politicization of the judicial appointments. This is nothing new, but it seems to be in a new phase of blatant disregard for judicial probity. This trend seems to parallel the unabashed gluttony of the wealthy, unseen for many decades in our history. Personally, I think that the financial justice issues, and the honest political representation issues, are far more threatening to our society at this time than the “marriage equality” issue. But that is another thread…
 
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