Catholic or Dispair

[GregoryPalamas]

This is a thread that is inspired by Penitentman’s thread stating his departure. I haven’t read any other of his posts but his words prompted me to share my struggle.

My struggle isn’t over whether to stay or leave but over contemplatation about why there is only one possible reason that I might leave and to rejoice over my stay.

Before converting from being a United Methodist Minister for twenty seven years I had to think through every issue and weigh the cost of leaving friends and the only source of real income I ever knew. I thought through the claims of the Church as being the pillar and ground of truth and knew that no protestant group could ever make such claims. I had to think through the dogmas and disciplines of the Church to see if there was any way I could claim that they were not true. Frankly, my conditioning for all of my left left me wondering about many things. But if Christ’s promises are true then the Catholic faith was and is the only real faith. If the Catholic faith is not real then nothing is real and true. Everything is a falsehood. My life and Life itself is false and we are all merely figments of each others imagination which in itself is an irrational belief. Perhaps reason itself is a ruse. Maybe even that isn’t true. Maybe nothing is true. So the only alternative to the Catholic faith is, as Nietche himself stumbled upon, Insanity.

The bottom line is this. If the Catholic faith is not true then despair over the lack of anything being true is the only real alternative. There really is no alternative. Sometimes I toy with the thought that I wish I could be ignorant of truth so I would not be held responsible for it. But I am not ignorant of it. In fact, the truth has set me free. But it is a very challenging thing to hold onto. I suppose that is why the writer of Hebrews wrote “It is a terrible thing to fall into the hands of God.”

Even saying all of that I can get fearful that the Church will change a principle dogma. If it does then I would fall into despair because that would make Jesus a liar.

CDL

 

[MarieVeronica]

Very profound insights. Thank you for sharing, Gregory.

We must ask the Holy Spirit for the Gift of Faith. Both for ourselves, and for those who are non-believers. Faith in Jesus is such a precious Gift… and never, never to be taken for granted.

“Come to Me, all you who labor and are burdened, and I will give you rest”. (Matthew 11:28)

God bless.

 

[beckycmarie]

Even saying all of that I can get fearful that the Church will change a principle dogma. If it does then I would fall into despair because that would make Jesus a liar.

Dear Gregory,

You already know Jesus isn’t a liar. You also know He said, “And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” Matthew 16:18

So why are you allowing this temptation to doubt trouble you? Time to let it go and continue forward in faith.

 

[chrisb]

There is Holy Orthodoxy, as arguably just as valid if not more so, as the Remnant of God’s People on Earth.

It’s not Rome or Bust.

 

[GregoryPalamas]

There is Holy Orthodoxy, as arguably just as valid if not more so, as the Remnant of God’s People on Earth.

It’s not Rome or Bust.

I hold them both to be the Church but find the continued separation a continued scandal. That is why I am Eastern Catholic. The continued separation makes one think that perhaps neither Church really believes the Truth.

In any event I doubt that I will ever come to the crisis that plays at the back of my mind. Christ has been faithful through all sorts of troubled times for 2000 years. Why should I doubt? I feel sorry for those who abandoned her for reasons that are simply an avoidance of suffering.

CDL

 

[Mirdath]

So the only alternative to the Catholic faith is, as Nietche himself stumbled upon, Insanity.

Nietzsche came up with his own solution. The insanity was later.

The bottom line is this. If the Catholic faith is not true then despair over the lack of anything being true is the only real alternative. There really is no alternative.

All I can offer for this is that you are utterly, supremely wrong

 

[gam197]

originally posted by GregoryPalamas
Before converting from being a United Methodist Minister for twenty seven years I had to think through every issue and weigh the cost of leaving friends and the only source of real income I ever knew. I thought through the claims of the Church as being the pillar and ground of truth and knew that no protestant group could ever make such claims. I had to think through the dogmas and disciplines of the Church to see if there was any way I could claim that they were not true. Frankly, my conditioning for all of my left left me wondering about many things. But if Christ’s promises are true then the Catholic faith was and is the only real faith.

Wow, a pastor for twenty seven years; what a challenge. I will remember that because sometimes people ask if there are priests or religious on these threads. They want an opinion from a person of authority which is fine. They want scripture understanding from a scripture scholar.

Even saying all of that I can get fearful that the Church will change a principle dogma. If it does then I would fall into despair because that would make Jesus a liar.

I can’t believe the Church will ever change a principle dogma. The Church has had a lot of infighting going on because it can’t change it’s historical teaching of truth. They based their truth on Christ and the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

Suffering is one of the toughest teaching. Yet if we think about day to day existence, it seems to work. A parent says, go to college, tough it out and the end result is a often a better job. Save money, tough it out and in the end, that person is financially secure.
The truth is a challenging thing to hold to.

 

[GregoryPalamas]

Nietzsche came up with his own solution. The insanity was later.

All I can offer for this is that you are utterly, supremely wrong

Those are doubtless only matters of opinion. But as you like it.

CDL

 

[Tick_Dawk]

Reality exists, regardless of whether or not the Catholic Church is right. How we view that reality can differ.

Truth is found within the Church, but the Church is not the only place where truth lies. Truth is within us.

 

[beckycmarie]

Reality exists, regardless of whether or not the Catholic Church is right. How we view that reality can differ.

Truth is found within the Church, but the Church is not the only place where truth lies. Truth is within us.

Yes the truth is written on our hearts, but we can learn the fullness of truth through the Catholic Church. We do not get it from going into ourselves; that is a new age error.

 

[Mirdath]

Those are doubtless only matters of opinion. But as you like it.

I am neither Catholic nor plagued by despair. Where do I fit in your false dichotomy?

Additionally, I see no lack of despairing Catholics right here – and it isn’t because they aren’t ‘Catholic enough’. What of them?

 

[GregoryPalamas]

I am neither Catholic nor plagued by despair. Where do I fit in your false dichotomy?

Additionally, I see no lack of despairing Catholics right here – and it isn’t because they aren’t ‘Catholic enough’. What of them?

A secularist ignores much of reality and so remains blissful. You know the old saying…I suspect.

CDL

 

[Mirdath]

A secularist ignores much of reality and so remains blissful. You know the old saying…I suspect.

Well enough – and I might coin my own, ‘superstition is bliss’ as a repartee. Still, you’ve gone and denied your original statement, so all’s well.

 

[GregoryPalamas]

Well enough – and I might coin my own, ‘superstition is bliss’ as a repartee. Still, you’ve gone and denied your original statement, so all’s well.

Hardly. Your position has quite a social history. A real blessing to the world.

CDL

 

[LSK]

Nietzsche came up with his own solution. The insanity was later.

All I can offer for this is that you are utterly, supremely wrong

Which is, of course, not an argument but an assertion…because what I can offer Gregory is that he is utterly, supremely correct. he weighed the evidence, the writings, the history and discovered that Christ founded one Church - not many - and that despite the continued efforts of man to disprove God, there is only One Church.

Gregory, I think we are close to healing the rift that exists between the right and left lungs of Holy Mother Church. She may be wounded, and at times full of discord…but she is still standing after 2000 years…just as Christ intended.

 

[Mirdath]

Hardly. Your position has quite a social history. A real blessing to the world.

Please, do tell me more about the evils inspired by agnosticism. Not atheism, your favorite bugaboo, or totalitarianism, which really is to blame for what you’re getting at, but agnosticism, which happens to be my ‘position’.

LSK:

Which is, of course, not an argument but an assertion…because what I can offer Gregory is that he is utterly, supremely correct. he weighed the evidence, the writings, the history and discovered that Christ founded one Church - not many - and that despite the continued efforts of man to disprove God, there is only One Church.

It was indeed an assertion, because seriously, what’s to argue about when somebody says the sky is lime green? One church, many churches – fair enough within the bounds of Christianity. I agree that only one denomination at most can be completely correct. But all that says nothing about those myriad religions which do not predicate themselves on the resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth; and it says nothing about atheism, nothing about agnosticism.

GregoryPalamas’ little existential crisis is applicable to himself, and to himself only.

 

[AeroChunky]

I have not posted a lot but lurked a LOT. I’m very familiar with PennitentMan’s threads. I have read them and I feel I have to come to his (and all those who had to leave the Faith) defence.

I thought through the claims of the Church as being the pillar and ground of truth and knew that no protestant group could ever make such claims. I had to think through the dogmas and disciplines of the Church to see if there was any way I could claim that they were not true. Frankly, my conditioning for all of my left left me wondering about many things. But if Christ’s promises are true then the Catholic faith was and is the only real faith. If the Catholic faith is not real then nothing is real and true. Everything is a falsehood. My life and Life itself is false and we are all merely figments of each others imagination which in itself is an irrational belief. Perhaps reason itself is a ruse. Maybe even that isn’t true. Maybe nothing is true. So the only alternative to the Catholic faith is, as Nietche himself stumbled upon, Insanity.

So, all the folks, including PennitentMan that left the Faith are insane?
As PM stated in some of his posts, he doesn’t believe that the Church holds the Truth anymore.
What of those folks that came to the (personal) conclusion that the Catholic Church does not teach all 100% truth, that they got certain things wrong…there are countless numbers of them out there…some leave and some stay and go through the motions, but they are there…are they all insane?

The bottom line is this. If the Catholic faith is not true then despair over the lack of anything being true is the only real alternative.

This is almost true. I have knows a few people that have left the Church, and for the first few months, they really are in despair. They are in despair because of the Church’s teachings that they teach the whole truth. How hurt are those guys that can’t, in good conscience reconcile themselves with those teachings, and feel like they have to leave for good of their families and themselves.
But it’s a temporary despair, because with time, for them, the realisation sets in that Jesus is found outside the Church. He saves Sinners, those who seek Him earnestly, with their whole hearts.

Even saying all of that I can get fearful that the Church will change a principle dogma. If it does then I would fall into despair because that would make Jesus a liar.

What about Galileo? Jesus is not a Liar, but for people like PM, they believe (with their whole heart) that Jesus does not equal the Catholic Church in all His teachings. that Jesus can be found outside the Church, that His Grace is found outside the Church.

I’m not saying that these are my views, but I have read and spoken to enough folks to be able to stand up for them.

AeroChunky.

 

[GregoryPalamas]

I have not posted a lot but lurked a LOT. I’m very familiar with PennitentMan’s threads. I have read them and I feel I have to come to his (and all those who had to leave the Faith) defence.

So, all the folks, including PennitentMan that left the Faith are insane?
As PM stated in some of his posts, he doesn’t believe that the Church holds the Truth anymore.
What of those folks that came to the (personal) conclusion that the Catholic Church does not teach all 100% truth, that they got certain things wrong…there are countless numbers of them out there…some leave and some stay and go through the motions, but they are there…are they all insane?

This is almost true. I have knows a few people that have left the Church, and for the first few months, they really are in despair. They are in despair because of the Church’s teachings that they teach the whole truth. How hurt are those guys that can’t, in good conscience reconcile themselves with those teachings, and feel like they have to leave for good of their families and themselves.
But it’s a temporary despair, because with time, for them, the realisation sets in that Jesus is found outside the Church. He saves Sinners, those who seek Him earnestly, with their whole hearts.

What about Galileo? Jesus is not a Liar, but for people like PM, they believe (with their whole heart) that Jesus does not equal the Catholic Church in all His teachings. that Jesus can be found outside the Church, that His Grace is found outside the Church.

I’m not saying that these are my views, but I have read and spoken to enough folks to be able to stand up for them.

AeroChunky.

The reason I started a separate thread was precisely so I wouldn’t appear to be insulting to PM. So, I hesitate to respond. In general however, yes, I do believe there is an insanity involved in making decisions not based upon reason but upon interior pressures, fears, doubts, etc. I suggest that you do some serious reading concerning Galileo. The problem he created for himself was not that he produced some affirmations of earlier widely accepted discoveries made even by one notable priest but that he insisted that the Church and the Scriptures were therefore wrong.

Finally, it doesn’t matter if I believe with my whole heart that pigs can fly on the planet Gandorf if I cannot demonstrated it logically what difference does it make? The entire point of the scholastic movement, if this greatest intellectual movement in history can be easily summarized, is this if something is unreasonable it ought not to be an object of faith.

Dawkins, e.g., insists that God does not exist. When asked how then did creation happen he insists that it came from another planet we know that Dawkins is a. A fool; B. insane; or C. a troublemaker not worthy of attention.

Some insist that God loves many competing Churches. When confronted with Christ’s High Priestly prayer (John 17) they respond by insisting that there is a totally invisible Church we know that such people are A. Not serious; B. Insane; C. Running from something; or D. Deeply troubled but in any event does not rightly represent the truth. Jesus prayed that we all may be one even as He and the Father are one.

Some insist that the true Church suddenly appeared many centuries after Christ. That is illogical. One could go on with many examples but I think you get my point.

It’s not about winning or losing discussions. It’s not about the pain that a seeker of truth must endure. It is about seeking the tuth and conforming oneself to it. It is about knowing that there is truth and knowing the truth and letting it set you free.

On the other hand if there is no truth we are either all insane or we have no reason to exist. It really is that simple.

CDL

 

[GregoryPalamas]

Please, do tell me more about the evils inspired by agnosticism. Not atheism, your favorite bugaboo, or totalitarianism, which really is to blame for what you’re getting at, but agnosticism, which happens to be my ‘position’.

It was indeed an assertion, because seriously, what’s to argue about when somebody says the sky is lime green? One church, many churches – fair enough within the bounds of Christianity. I agree that only one denomination at most can be completely correct. But all that says nothing about those myriad religions which do not predicate themselves on the resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth; and it says nothing about atheism, nothing about agnosticism.

GregoryPalamas’ little existential crisis is applicable to himself, and to himself only.

I had a fundamentalist protestant friend at Northwestern Univerisity who was in the religion department with me. Even before I got to know him he had become an atheist. We had no trouble getting along on a personal level. We had no trouble working together on various research projects.

When he said that he could take a theist seriously though he disagreed with him I agreed on the other side of the issue. I could take an Atheist seriously, though I had rarely met one that I could.

Then he added “I could never take an agnostic seriously. They are essentially elitist cowards”. Though I might not use the terms he did I essentially agree. I appreciate people who take a stand on something. I don’t appreciate the attitude of someone who refuses to commit himself to anything and then makes snide remarks about those who do take a stand.

I’ll oppose an Atheist with all my might. But what is a serious person supposed to do with an agnostic?

CDL

 

[beckycmarie]

A personal anecdote about atheists vs. agnostics -

I had two close friends in high school who are still close friends today. One was atheist, the other agnostic.

The atheist eventually came around in college and is now Baptist.

My agnostic friend, 18 years later, is still sitting on the fence agnostic and won’t budge.

I wonder if it’s true that the atheist is more likely to change his mind since he is willing to take a stand one way or the other, but that the agnostic is just so comfortable on the fence it’d take a great shove to get him to choose.