Catholic or Dispair

[GregoryPalamas]

let’s see what we have to choose from … there’s hedonism, materialism, and let’s not forget scientism. thanks but no thanks – i’ll stick with christianity.

Same here. But then M admits that he doesn’t know. It’s a safe position, sort of, but not helpful. It’s not one that matters to anyone in the long run.

CDL

 

[tomarin]

Same here. But then M admits that he doesn’t know. It’s a safe position, sort of, but not helpful. It’s not one that matters to anyone in the long run.

CDL

it also – in my opinion at least – allows one license to live as an atheist, even as one admits the theoretical possiblity of a theistic universe. i don’t know of any agnostics that bother to attend mass, for example, or to follow the church’s teachings on the sanctity of life. subscribing to agnosticism in practical terms means living life as an atheist.

 

[GregoryPalamas]

it also – in my opinion at least – allows one license to live as an atheist, even as one admits the theoretical possiblity of a theistic universe. i don’t know of any agnostics that bother to attend mass, for example, or to follow the church’s teachings on the sanctity of life. subscribing to agnosticism in practical terms means living life as an atheist.

Indeed so.

 

[Mirdath]

Offer a substitute. I’m not interested in dropping into nihilism or claiming not to know things simply so I can taunt those who do.

A substitute for a faulty major premise? Let’s go with ‘some things can be true’. That will satisfy your desire to prove the reality of truth. If Catholicism happens to be one of those truths, it will hold; if my stance of strong agnosticism happens to be correct, it will still hold. Simply, you cannot prove Catholicism (or any religion) correct by such awful logic. I’m standing at a strong point because first, I admit the possibility of truth in any religion; and second because I wait for them to show themselves true – I have no conclusive evidence for any of them. You have faith on your side; let that speak for itself, without trying to tame it with logic. It is not a tool meant for that purpose.

tomarin:

it also – in my opinion at least – allows one license to live as an atheist, even as one admits the theoretical possiblity of a theistic universe. i don’t know of any agnostics that bother to attend mass, for example, or to follow the church’s teachings on the sanctity of life. subscribing to agnosticism in practical terms means living life as an atheist.

Living as an atheist (and it is true, there is little functional difference between strong agnosticism and weak atheism) does not necessarily mean a life of nihilistic hedonism. I won’t claim to be a saint, but honestly, the way I live my life is a lot closer to the Christian ideal (and those of several other religions) than you’d think.

So, when are you going to respond to my megapost here?

 

[GregoryPalamas]

Faith without logic isn’t worth having. It’s a fools religion. So, I’m back to my original point. If Catholicism is not true the only option is despair (sorry for the misspelling in the title). I may be foolish at times but I am not a fool. BTW Scholasticism is a viable alternative to agnosticism. Though, as Aquinas knew near the end of his life, even that only barely scratches the surface of what can be known.

CDL

 

[Mirdath]

And is not the fool for Christ an idea as old as Christianity itself?

As for scholasticism as an alternative to agnosticism… they’re two completely different things.

 

[GregoryPalamas]

And is not the fool for Christ an idea as old as Christianity itself?

As for scholasticism as an alternative to agnosticism… they’re two completely different things.

And you thought I did not know that? We aren’t going very far if you actually thought I didn’t know that.

Why did you come to the point of leaving the Church? Perhaps there is more to you than you have revealed, not because you left but because you may just be trying to work out some things.

CDL

 

[Mirdath]

And you thought I did not know that? We aren’t going very far if you actually thought I didn’t know that.

Whether you knew it or not, it seems as though you have discounted it.

Why did you come to the point of leaving the Church? Perhaps there is more to you than you have revealed, not because you left but because you may just be trying to work out some things.

To make a long story short, some dark nights of the soul never end. Belief in that which I could not experience firsthand is something I was brought up to act like I could do; once I learned how to think for myself, I realized it was as alien a concept to me as seeing radio waves. For whatever reason, I lack the inherent capacity for faith. Nothing that I haven’t made known here before – I’ve been pretty open with everything except identifiable personal information, this being the internet.

 

[GregoryPalamas]

Whether you knew it or not, it seems as though you have discounted it.

To make a long story short, some dark nights of the soul never end. Belief in that which I could not experience firsthand is something I was brought up to act like I could do; once I learned how to think for myself, I realized it was as alien a concept to me as seeing radio waves. For whatever reason, I lack the inherent capacity for faith. Nothing that I haven’t made known here before – I’ve been pretty open with everything except identifiable personal information, this being the internet.

Well, that’s enough for me.

CDL

 

[tomarin]

Living as an atheist (and it is true, there is little functional difference between strong agnosticism and weak atheism) does not necessarily mean a life of nihilistic hedonism. I won’t claim to be a saint, but honestly, the way I live my life is a lot closer to the Christian ideal (and those of several other religions) than you’d think.

So, when are you going to respond to my megapost here?

i don’t have much of a response (and didn’t want to take this thread too far off topic) but this is it – if christianity is as wrong as you say, who or what will correct the excesses and errors of the modern age? what set of values will curb our tendency today to do things simply because we can (thanks to technology mostly but also relativism)? how can we move forward into the future unless we have a firm grasp of where we have been and who we are, which in the long view comes down largely to christianity and the western civilization it engendered?

incidentally, my comments about nihilism and such are not meant to be a judgement directed at you personally but rather at the age we live in. to put it another way, in the absence of a creed, what is left to fill the void but hedonism, materialism, scientism and various other -isms?

one final thought: if you are right and christianity is as unsound and unimpressive a value system as you say (surely st. thomas aquinas would disagree but let’s leave that aside for the moment) i have no idea where i would turn for a strong moral anchor in my life. so i completely understand what gregorypalamas means when he says “catholicism or despair” and i believe it applies to many more people than just him.

 

[chrisb]

I hold them both to be the Church but find the continued separation a continued scandal. That is why I am Eastern Catholic. The continued separation makes one think that perhaps neither Church really believes the Truth.

In any event I doubt that I will ever come to the crisis that plays at the back of my mind. Christ has been faithful through all sorts of troubled times for 2000 years. Why should I doubt? I feel sorry for those who abandoned her for reasons that are simply an avoidance of suffering.

CDL

Pardon me Gregory I was only bringing up Orthodoxy because it seemed helpful.

 

[GregoryPalamas]

Pardon me Gregory I was only bringing up Orthodoxy because it seemed helpful.

I think you may have misunderstood what I meant. I don’t consider either Church to be in error. I have a difficult time understanding why they won’t reunite…except for egotistical reasons. Eastern Catholicism tries to bridge the gap between the two. We are Orthodox in communion with Rome. At this point I don’t wish to be either Roman Catholic or Orthodox. I wish to be both as God intends the Church to be. God does not wish the continued separation. Since is the case we are left with the uneviable pressure to see both in error at this point. Yet, how can that be? I do not know. This is the greatest scandal in the Church and it just continues on and on and on.

CDL

 

[Mirdath]

i don’t have much of a response (and didn’t want to take this thread too far off topic) but this is it – if christianity is as wrong as you say, who or what will correct the excesses and errors of the modern age? what set of values will curb our tendency today to do things simply because we can (thanks to technology mostly but also relativism)? how can we move forward into the future unless we have a firm grasp of where we have been and who we are, which in the long view comes down largely to christianity and the western civilization it engendered?

It’s not like you’re doing such a bang-up job of fixing it; in fact, if Christianity is indeed responsible for western civilization as we know it, thanks for all the fish, maybe it should quit while it’s not too far behind. Those excesses and errors didn’t spring up ex nihilo.

incidentally, my comments about nihilism and such are not meant to be a judgement directed at you personally but rather at the age we live in. to put it another way, in the absence of a creed, what is left to fill the void but hedonism, materialism, scientism and various other -isms?

Basic first-year ethics?

one final thought: if you are right and christianity is as unsound and unimpressive a value system as you say (surely st. thomas aquinas would disagree but let’s leave that aside for the moment) i have no idea where i would turn for a strong moral anchor in my life. so i completely understand what gregorypalamas means when he says “catholicism or despair” and i believe it applies to many more people than just him.

It’s impressive and detailed, but not particularly sound; however, if it keeps you happy, fantastic. I and many others possess ‘strong moral anchors’ without Catholicism – and we’re just as happy as you, so how about let’s just be excellent to each other?

 

[tomarin]

It’s not like you’re doing such a bang-up job of fixing it; in fact, if Christianity is indeed responsible for western civilization as we know it, thanks for all the fish, maybe it should quit while it’s not too far behind. Those excesses and errors didn’t spring up ex nihilo.

no, but in my view they became much worse after we in the west committed deicide, as Nietzsche would put it.

Basic first-year ethics?

well that’s a start but in my experience there’s a lot that christianity can teach the secular world about ethics and morality. in fact that’s the church’s job – if it is doing it’s job it will be making the secular world uncomfortable about its cut corners and convenient measures, which is one reason (i think) many people despise the church.

It’s impressive and detailed, but not particularly sound; however, if it keeps you happy, fantastic. I and many others possess ‘strong moral anchors’ without Catholicism – and we’re just as happy as you, so how about let’s just be excellent to each other?

it keeps me happy but more importantly it keeps me human. i want to push back against all the dehumanizing trends that have been plaguing the (post)modern world and which appear to be getting worse. on any number of fronts, we have lost sight of the dignity and value of every single human life, and there’s no sign of that abating, in fact it is accelerating. that’s why i feel now more than ever we need a creed that reaffirms everything that is good and just and decent about our civilization – because we are in desperate need of moral and spiritual renewal, and time is of the essence. we need God (and here i do not mean the faceless, uninvolved God of agnosticism) – nothing less will do.

 

[GregoryPalamas]

no, but in my view they became much worse after we in the west committed deicide, as Nietzsche would put it.

well that’s a start but in my experience there’s a lot that christianity can teach the secular world about ethics and morality. in fact that’s the church’s job – if it is doing it’s job it will be making the secular world uncomfortable about its cut corners and convenient measures, which is one reason (i think) many people despise the church.

it keeps me happy but more importantly it keeps me human. i want to push back against all the dehumanizing trends that have been plaguing the (post)modern world and which appear to be getting worse. on any number of fronts, we have lost sight of the dignity and value of every single human life, and there’s no sign of that abating, in fact it is accelerating. that’s why i feel now more than ever we need a creed that reaffirms everything that is good and just and decent about our civilization – because we are in desperate need of moral and spiritual renewal, and time is of the essence. we need God (and here i do not mean the faceless, uninvolved God of agnosticism) – nothing less will do.

Tomarin,

Fine responses. I lost interest in responding to Mirdath when he smuggly commented about the “conceit of theism” or something like that. I intend on keeping him on my ignore list. “Conceit” and “Theism” does not go together. “Conceit” an “Atheism” certainly and quite obviously does. To imagine that the universe created itself, which is all an atheist (or “strong” agnostic) is left with is very conceited.

In any event, I’m not really tempted at all by atheism or “strong agnosticism”, whatever that is. It’s hard to imagine that anything would come along to convince anyone of Catholicism’s falsehood but if it should I’m not clear what I would do.

CDL

 

[Mirdath]

Fine responses. I lost interest in responding to Mirdath when he smuggly commented about the “conceit of theism” or something like that. I intend on keeping him on my ignore list. “Conceit” and “Theism” does not go together. “Conceit” an “Atheism” certainly and quite obviously does. To imagine that the universe created itself, which is all an atheist (or “strong” agnostic) is left with is very conceited.

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By the way, ‘conceit’ is also a synonym for ‘idea’ or ‘concept’ – which would be the meaning in the phrase ‘conceit of’.

 

[ufamtobie]

This is a thread that is inspired by Penitentman’s thread stating his departure. I haven’t read any other of his posts but his words prompted me to share my struggle.

My struggle isn’t over whether to stay or leave but over contemplatation about why there is only one possible reason that I might leave and to rejoice over my stay.

Before converting from being a United Methodist Minister for twenty seven years I had to think through every issue and weigh the cost of leaving friends and the only source of real income I ever knew. I thought through the claims of the Church as being the pillar and ground of truth and knew that no protestant group could ever make such claims. I had to think through the dogmas and disciplines of the Church to see if there was any way I could claim that they were not true. Frankly, my conditioning for all of my left left me wondering about many things. But if Christ’s promises are true then the Catholic faith was and is the only real faith. If the Catholic faith is not real then nothing is real and true. Everything is a falsehood. My life and Life itself is false and we are all merely figments of each others imagination which in itself is an irrational belief. Perhaps reason itself is a ruse. Maybe even that isn’t true. Maybe nothing is true. So the only alternative to the Catholic faith is, as Nietche himself stumbled upon, Insanity.

The bottom line is this. If the Catholic faith is not true then despair over the lack of anything being true is the only real alternative. There really is no alternative. Sometimes I toy with the thought that I wish I could be ignorant of truth so I would not be held responsible for it. But I am not ignorant of it. In fact, the truth has set me free. But it is a very challenging thing to hold onto. I suppose that is why the writer of Hebrews wrote “It is a terrible thing to fall into the hands of God.”

Even saying all of that I can get fearful that the Church will change a principle dogma. If it does then I would fall into despair because that would make Jesus a liar.

CDL

Hi Gregory,

Don’t be feaful, have Joy, Jesus will never let the Catholic Church Slip into error. Jesus said he will be with us till the end of time and **Jesus does not know how to be a liar **for he is **Truth **and were he resides is in the Catholic Church in every tabernacle in the world.

Ufamtobie