Catholic or Orthodox

[Mickey]

I agree, Searn77, and apologize for my part in derailing it, though I will point out that the thread turned the way it did because the differing approaches of the Catholic Church and the Orthodox to other religions is a very good illustration of the differences between the two churches’ approach to the Christian faith. So it’s not entirely outside of the point of the OP.

Correct.

But perhaps this subject can be taken to the Assisi interfaith prayer thread.

 

[Mickey]

You reminded me of C3PO when he encounters that droid that looked just like him. He says, “how delightful to see a familiar face” to which the droid says “e-chootah!” and
C3PO says, “how rude!” Droid vulgarity!

LOL! I love Star Wars.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Yes. That is the point. Thank you.

So what “is” the solution? All that does is assess the situation. So how should we resolve conflict with no conversation.

Mind you there two aspects now, one is Islam is both political/religious. Christianity is just religious period. So what do they do?

 

[dzheremi]

I agree that we should move this discussion to another thread. I will create it and those who want to continue this discussion there can do so (I will probably be bowing out after a bit; today’s my tutoring day at the local elementary school, and that’s something I can help with and see immediate results from!)

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

To be fair, though, I really already had that thread on CCC 841 in which we all hashed this topic of Islam and Christianity to death though. We took that topic about as far as it’d go man!

I agree that we should move this discussion to another thread. I will create it and those who want to continue this discussion there can do so (I will probably be bowing out after a bit; today’s my tutoring day at the local elementary school, and that’s something I can help with and see immediate results from!)

 

[dzheremi]

To be fair, though, I really already had that thread on CCC 841 in which we all hashed this topic of Islam and Christianity to death though. We took that topic about as far as it’d go man!

Well, yeah…but I already made the thread, and besides CCC 841 seems to take “dialogue” with Muslims as a proper and necessary goal. Our friend Gary Taylor likewise, but I (at least) see it differently. So I think that’s a fundamentally different question than who is worshiping what, which was the topic of the CCC 841 thread.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Essentially true but the argument still gets back to the fundamental----is Allah and the Triune God the same god, right?

Well, yeah…but I already made the thread, and besides CCC 841 seems to take “dialogue” with Muslims as a proper and necessary goal. Our friend Gary Taylor likewise, but I (at least) see it differently. So I think that’s a fundamentally different question than who is worshiping what, which was the topic of the CCC 841 thread.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Fundamentally thats the bone of contention we are left to deal with. But when you can get people to the public forum, you can sway there thinking. I’ll give them that bone all day long if the CC won’t change it. And cut it off with “profess” from there its all heresy.

The public is a problem, look at ground zero and that mess and the college’s state-side. The Christians are Pro-Islam. Thats not taught in the churchs and I can’t imagine the catechism has that profound effect. I see people in general want to believe nonsense and when one muslim comes here with the we can talk philosophy Christians are on that like white on rice. It could be Bin Laden himself for all we know.

Islam hasn’t done a single thing to stop the violence, nothing. In my mind that alone says it all.

Its gonna get worse before it gets better.

 

[DavidKays]

This is not what the post was about but in some way it is a concern for both Catholics and Orthodox. God will sometimes uses His enemies to chastise His friends. Islam while it adheres to some fundamental truths will never understand God as contained in the teachings of the Catholic and Orthodox Church. I believe there is a door open for their conversion by route of the Blessed Virgin Mary. There is a chapter devoted to her in the Koran and this well be the door which God will use to convert them into the Catholic Faith. Moslems have great reverence to Mary. They will not destroy anything that is connected to her. For instance any church or monastery with her name attached to it. Soon I believe God will convert them for the times are right for such an event. During its history God may have used them to disclipline us when Christians have gone astray. But now the time has come for a convergence and in this time of the present I believe God through His Holy Mother will help convert them to the Catholic Faith. Eventually you will see them converted and they will become very devout Catholics.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Well we have to first identify we are talking strickly Christians here. Non-Christians, Pagans, Atheists, all have little use for Islam. Its Christianity, and believe it or not Judaism who flock to there side for some unknown reason of interfaith.

So the very people who reach out to convert their heretical thinking are the ones being hurt.

I don’t think the process needs to stop of conversion. I just believe we need to educate Christians to exactly whats being dealt with here though. At some point we must convert Islam. Or war cannot be avoided. And World War at that.

The problem in American is the Constitution which becomes played against the US just as in Ground Zero. And the very people who made that possible are the combinations of Christianity/Judaism and Isalm. And the sympathizers of those ideals.

But no solution no conversation, means exactly that, that leaves us sleepwalking which we done to much of already. Its time to wake up and address the issues, before your childrens children wake up homeless.

 

[GaryTaylor]

And as you see 841 isn’t going anywhere. So reality isn’t as you think it should be, or like it to be, its how it actually is. And unfortunatly the Catechism is what we have to contend with. So pounding your chest doesn’t change that truth.

And 841 is what we have to deal with. So as soon as we “all” accept that the quicker we can get to business and work with what we have.

 

[Bluegoat]

It is very clear, Bluegoat, that despite the efforts of some to place Muhammad’s religion in some sort of special category of “half-truth” that is somehow good enough to substitute for the true Gospel, it really, really isn’t, and no Christian until our day (infected with a spirit of false ecumenism as it is) ever thought it was.

No one has said that Islam is in a special category. In fact, i have said the opposite - that i would apply the same principles to it that I would apply to any non-Christian religion oe philosophy, or indeed to Christian positions that i think are wrong-headed.

Further, I have never said that it is good enough to substitute for the Gospel, and i have not seen anyone here argue that. I would very much like you to show me where that is being said, since it has been specifically noted that it is not what is being said. It is a straw man, and I am not sure whether you are making it on purpose, or because you cannot understand that it is not being argued.

Regarding whatever “truth” Islam may have discerned about God, two things immediately come to mind:

1. The saying “Even a stopped clock is right twice a day”

and

1. So what? The supposed correctness of any given point of theology doesn’t sustain any activity with Muslims beyond pointing out their religion’s errors and praying for them, and we don’t need to engage in any foolish interfaith prayer to do either of those things.

Who said anything about interfaith prayer? Do please stop bringing in things which I have not said. Otherwise I am going to feel obliged to assert that you just don’'t like Muslims because you hate falafel.

So what?

It is inaccurate to say that Islam has a different God. In and of itself accuracy is important. People ask - often to try to support some agenda) - but we don’t answer based on what would be most convenient for our own agenda, which seems to be what you are suggesting.

The second is that small inaccuracies like that can lead to larger ones. Saying that Islam worships a wholly different God is connected to some rather interesting, and I would say clearly hetrodox, religious views.

And thirdly, in many cases we may actually be asked to deal with Muslim groups in various ways. In some cases we might have to refuse, other cases it might be appropriate, and others might be unclear. Is it ok to share a worship space in a hospital chaplaincy where space is at a premium? Can we be involved with an interfaith soup kitchen in our neighbourhood? What do we do about a problem with interfaith violence where we live? If we don’t have a clear idea what our relation to non-Christians is, it can be difficult to answer such questions.

And I would take it further and question what exactly “discerning the truth” about God means, speaking as Christians about a non-Christian religion. Is it that they’ve said statements like “God is greatest” or “There is no God but God” which, while true, are falsified by their referent being Muhammad’s Allah rather than the Trinity? (In other words, they’re right about God, but since Islam does not worship God, they can’t be evidence of a true understanding of God on the part of Muslims, but instead are an understanding of Muhammad’s Allah.)

There is no “other God”. The unique, and incorrect things Mohammad suggested as belonging to God have no reality - it is in no way true to say of them that they have the characteristics of God.

I would really like a straight answer from you on the philosophical issues, which you seem to be avoiding in favour of making comments about interfaith prayer. Do you think that there is no such thing as natural religion? Do you think Paul was wrong when he said any man could come to know God through reason? Or that he was not serious when he said the Greeks had been unknowingly worshiping the true God? Or that Augustine was incorrect in thinking the neoplatonists had correctly identified God, or that his mystical vision as a Platonist was real? Do you think modern, or ancient, Jews worship a different God?

This reminds me a bit of the closed communion thread we had a little while ago. Do you recall that one?

I didn’t read the thread, but I tend to favour closed communion.

I view things like this proposed prayer in the same way: You are coming from the outside, with whatever beliefs you have. Fine, have those beliefs and live by them if you want to, but you do not get to approach Christianity’s God, the TRUE GOD, the uncreated and undivided Holy Trinity, and pray using words that endorse heresy, or even if I know ahead of time that you hold a heresy even if you never bring it up around me. It would be foolish of me to offer prayers with you in such an occasion, for exactly the reasons given by Sts. Paul and John Damascene. Our faith is not your faith, so you practice your faith in your own place and pray to your recension of God in that place, and we will pray to God in our place. If you are a Muslim, that place is the mosque and if you are a Christian that place is the church. We can still have friendly relations if you are predisposed towards peaceful coexistence (this is another reason I would not pray with Muslims; they kill us unrepentantly all around the world…let’s deal with that fact, then maybe we’ll be more comfortable around each other), but we will not compromise our religion in order to be nice to you. There’s no need to, and plenty of very solid reasons not to.

But I am not supporting interfaith prayer?

Also,I realize you live in a place where interfaith relations stink, on many levels. I don’t. Interfaith relations here are overall good, including with Muslims. I don’t think that experience is less true or valid than yours, if we are basing our actions here on our experiences.

 

[Bluegoat]

I agree, Searn77, and apologize for my part in derailing it, though I will point out that the thread turned the way it did because the differing approaches of the Catholic Church and the Orthodox to other religions is a very good illustration of the differences between the two churches’ approach to the Christian faith. So it’s not entirely outside of the point of the OP.

I have read a lot of Orthodox material, and spoken to a lot of Orthodox people, and I think this is less true than you think. While they are much more careful about ecumenism and interfaith ventures (and I think rightly so) the idea that Islam has somehow identified a wholly different God is by no means the “Orthodox position”.

 

[dzheremi]

Please take your complaints to this thread that I have created for the purposes of continuing this discussion on Islam, as Searn77 has rightly pointed out that this is not the place for it.

 

[Bluegoat]

Explain…

I’ll try. I’ll probably be repeating stuff you know, but it’s the only way I can be clear in my own mind.

I said:

“That is not the same as saying that Islam, or other religions, has not discerned any truth about God. I am not sure how any catholic or orthodox Christianity could maintain that they have not, since they believe that we are all connected to God whether we know it, or accept it, or not. It seems like a fundamentalist position to me.”

Catholic and orthodox Christianity both understand that it is possible to come to know God, to some degree, apart from special revelation. So through reason for example.

You can look at that from a more Augustinian method, or a more Thomistic method, or a more Eastern method.

From an Augustinian perspective, we are all made for God, and we are all a microcosm of the Divine. We naturally search for truths about him, and we are unsatisfied unless we rest in him. We have a kind of innate sense of him and connection to him, even when we have not been baptized, because it is part of our nature, and he is in a real sense present in us.

From a Thomistic perspective, the material world, and even our reason, are God’s natural revelations. When properly understood, we can follow them back to God. We can make errors of course, but when we perceive God this way, it really is God.

From an Eastern perspective, we are all in a relation with God - we are all saved, even if we don’t really know it, or even if we have rejected God. There is no place to go other than God. Sin, and misunderstanding, however, can come between us and God. Coming to a full unity with God is a process, not an either/or proposition.

This is quite different from the fundamentalist postion which tends to see things as either from God, or not. So for example there is a stark and sharp divide between Heaven and Hell, or the elect and the reprobate. (No purgatory or theosis need apply!) It is why historically Christians have been able to borrow a holiday, or a symbol, or philosophical language from non-Christians, and use it themselves. Eggs may have been used as a symbol by pagans somewhere, but they are natural creations - what is true about them comes from God. Fundamentalists often can’t bring themselves to do that - what is not explicitly of God (written or commanded in the Bible) is from Satan.

So for fundamentalists, Muslims do not have an interior connection with God - they are cut off because they are dammed. They do not have a relation through reason, becuse they generally reject reason as a way to God. they don’t have a relation in the sense of the process of theosis, because they have not accepted Christ as their Savior. They really are cut off.

From a more traditional position, of course they are not cut off in that way, nor is anyone else. Non-Christians can have a real relationship with God through reason, or creation, or their own innate and thirst and love for God. These things mean that they can - probably they will - have a real perception of God at some level. If they worship what they perceive, they are offering real worship to God. If they worship instead, or as well, some figment (be it something from their own imagination, or someone else’s imagination, or even some phantasm from a demon) than what worship is directed there is to an idol. Not another God.

Of course that is likely to have a negative impact on the relation to what is really perceived about God - possibly even replacing the real with the imaginary to an increasing extent. But I think it would be unusual for it to be totally replaced, because we do all have a real connection to God through the world and our own soul.

 

[dzheremi]

Bluegoat: I have responded to your replies in the other thread I linked in post #212. Please do read it, as there has been a rather serious mistake on my part that I now realize (after reading your reply) made my post somewhat nonsensical…

 

[The_Sentry]

It is inaccurate to say that Islam has a different God. In and of itself accuracy is important. People ask - often to try to support some agenda) - but we don’t answer based on what would be most convenient for our own agenda, which seems to be what you are suggesting.

The second is that small inaccuracies like that can lead to larger ones. Saying that Islam worships a wholly different God is connected to some rather interesting, and I would say clearly hetrodox, religious views.

I’ve seen this statement made often on here. I’d respectfully recommend Timothy George’s Is the Father of Jesus the God of Muhammad? to all concerned. I know Dr. George personally, and he approaches this topic with brilliance and charity. He has been involved with ecumenism with Rome on the highest levels, so he’s highly recommended.

 

[GaryTaylor]

OK lets for argument sake agree that Islam has the same God as Christians. And looking at the grand scale of the Universe this may in fact be true, or it may not. Time will tell. But lets agree here

Now what? The point of religion can only sway now to Christian beliefs, for the simple reason that all others points in Islam are heretical Christianity.

Now we have a a more complex problem which is “learned behavior” which becomes a weave with religion for Islam. In fact their religion gives them permission to act out in a inappropriate manner within society.

The truth is this, in this day and age some specifics in mankind are simply barbaric, such as slavery, public stoning in the name or religion, execution for not following an arranged marrige. But here we have the fundemental issue. The religion gives the behavior permission. This is inappropriate. It it contained to the middle east then this alos would fine. But today we have this disease spreading everywhere. IMO its time to cut off the arm to save the body.

Listen, I don’t care if you pray to Cheeta the monkey. Long as we can get along in society and all live by the same “civil” standards which btw Christianity bough to the table many years ago. Then I’m willing for the time being to say, “fine have your religion”. As man moves forward in the civilized world and Islam learns to interact within that framework and learns mankind isn’t here to bow down to Islam. Then we can build a working relationship. That relationship has to be on the common respect of all men, regardless of race, ethnic background, social or physical limitations and religion. But this isn’t what Islam chose’s to do. They chose to populate slowly then impose their will as the populations increase. Stevie Wonder can see this.

The interaction of mankind must also bring all men to live by the same rule/laws. Its not we as christians live this way, but its OK for Islam to stone, execute, enslave and tax and kill all which they deem “different”. Then when and if Islam becomes a majority all are taxed. enslaved and Islam is in full effect.

So the problem gets back around to the reality that society today doesn’t live in camelot. There are places like Iran who have stated that in the near future Israel will no longer exist and will be erased from the map. Thats their position. So as much as we would like to build a better tommorow for mankind. We are constantly confronted with War or a Checkmate which doesn’t allow us to stop the threat of war. Because of dictatorships. Never mind confront the behavior or address it with a hope of change.

There is no live and let live. Forget about Islam and the dialogue. Sure that has been the solution to some extent in the past, but now we have a gorilla knocking on the door. In another 100-years Canada especially will be confronted with the same issues as France today. Islam threatened to take over europe in the 1500’s and was at their door. Today we have a different Islam, one that bids its time and slowly populates within a society like a creeping disease. Then you have police, military and citizens stressed out from forced abomination of religion which leads way into inappropriate behavior, in the name of Allah.

Look people are people, in essense all share the shed the same tears, share the same fears and die in so many years. And all behavior can be overcome when we look at the learned behavior in specific. But with Islam its very different for the simple reason we have a learned behavior combined with a religion that constantly gives way to violent thinking in the name of Allah??? Its not impossible to correct the behavior, but the effort is massive and the results will be minimal. The simple fact one must first want to change in order to actually change. or all attempts are futile. Look at CAF and talk to any Muslim, they are in denial. They don’t see anything wrong with islam. They “defend” that abomonation.

To me talking religion with Islam is about the same as talking about alcohol with alcoholic. There religion is a symptom of the problem, not the problem, the behavior is the problem. But we keep wanting play religion and the behavior continues to escalate. We need to get the priorites straight here. Put the religion in the closet, and when you learn how to act, you can have your image back.

Bottom line is Islam needs to start handling their own issues and be held accountable for their own actions. They created terror and radical Isalm, not the West. Thats not our problem to clean up and chase them through the deserts of the middle east.

So the interfaith dialogue does what? I fail to see any solution. The longer we travel this present path the more likely we will face nuclear war. How long before that technology reachs a major level in Islam/Iran?

So yes I believe we must talk with them, but I don’t think pussyfooting around is the solution. We walked much to far down that path to no avail. You know what we been in the middle east since 83. Enough is enough. The inappropriate behavior “is” the problem. We go to far down this path and man will forget he is civil. Don’t give homo sapien to much credit. Once man becomes barbaric, he doesn’t know his way back. And we already been sleepwalking much to long. At this rate we need come up with a plan B survival plan for civil man.

 

[LaymanX]

This is a question no one can tell you the answer to, you must arrive at it on your own. Read books written by apologists on both sides, I can recommend Kallistos (sometimes credited as Timothy) Ware’s “The Orthodox Church” for an overview of Orthodox Church history, and why it is the Church. There are however many more beyond that. Start with the preliminary though and then start looking deeper. Think of the issues you have with them, for example the idea of Papal Infallibility is one that really got me, I see no evidence of it in the early church, but I know at least one poster who has issue with the lack of doctrine on the topic of justification in the Orthodox Church.

Basically find the issues and then try to find the answers to them. Get both sides of the story from their own sources. Then you will have your answer.

I concur with the quote above. The big one for me is also the idea of Papal Infallibility. Right now I’m starting from the way beginning. Back to the schisms that began after the second Ecumenical Council. The main issue was over the interpretation of the 3rd canon of the second Ecumenical Council. Does this canon support the absolute primacy of the See of Rome, or was it supposed to be understood in the sense of primus inter pares (eng. “first among equals”). Everything from my studies in Greek, Latin, biblical exegesis, patristics, and church history has been to see what was meant by this ambiguous 3rd canon. Good luck on your spiritual pilgrimage to Rome, Constantinople, Antioch, Alexandria, Moscow, Canterbury, or wherever!

Peace and grace,

Francis.