Catholic or Orthodox

[jam070406]

Amen, Yes the teaching of Aristotle came to my mind in another thread. The fundementals of Freedom, Truth and Good have long been taught, Thomas Aquinas tried it into Christianity very well. Threre is nothing new with Islam. Its not a surprise anyone would not grasp this. Its well covered in deceit with a religious cloak.

Islam just continues on and on with blasphemy. 70 Virgins in Heaven? To do exactly what with? So what theres sex in heaven or slavery? What is that? I can’t even wrap my head around that from a christian perpective. And honestly you would conclude thats a direct message from God? What part of Islam is right? The fact that they claim to worship the God of Abraham. Thats what we should hang our hat on? In fact, it could be the only thing. Christ, Mary, Trinity, Violence, Slavery, Polygamists, Where do you start?

I’m not sure at which point Islam is or can be correct but the God of Abraham. The more I view Islam the closer it resembles nazi germany. It kills all who isn’t exactly like they are, then it will turn on itself and kill all within itself which doesn’t live up or meet its expectations. And slavery becomes another issue, how about the insignificance of women? Am I missing something? And you know what, nazi germany claimed initially to also be following christian faith. Until Rome finally seen the forest from above the trees with the help from all Christianity and most important Eastern Catholic and Orthodox.

So, Whats the difference this time around? The evil comes in the name of religion and boldly claims to be the one and only Gods “NEW Religion”, and in the God of the Bibles name. Blasphemous is what it is. Then it concludes your Holy Bible is rubbish, and the Corrupt Koran is the “Last Testament”. So God who abolished War after the Old Testament with Christ and His Apostles, changed His mind especially for Mohammad? OK, its a wonder man has been sleepwalking this long with Islam. And Christ in fact isn’t God, he was just a prophet? You go for this nonsense, you’ll go for anything. Theres bridge in NY for sale also.

I mean listen, I believe in being polite to all, but that doesn’t mean not speaking your mind or calling a Ace an Ace.

45-million Christians killed last century and Turkey was close to the top in slaughtering Christians. This century is no different with Islam leading the way in the God of Abrahams new murderous plan? . So how long and how many Jews, Christians have to die with the on-going apology and the drival that suggests “oh thats radical Islam.” Please, those are the children you chose to raise as such, and they then act out their learned behavior. Its is no other way. If Christians and Jews are being constantly martryed than what else could it be but evil. God choosing to kill Good God fearing men and women? Does that make sense? I’m not sure how one suggests such with a straight face, its either total ignorance or a straight out lie.

And the stance many chose to take in civil society in supporting Islam is in fact enabling the corrupt behavior. Why would one do this? Certainly violence isn’t suggested but the encouragement to any degree also cannot be correct. It enables the behavior.

When Islam begins to deal with there own attrocitys, then the world becomes attentive to a just cause. Thus far its, “oh thats radical islam and mind your own business.” Well how about this, when your slaughtering christians it is our business.

Straight out of the lake of fire is all its shown to me.

We ought to thank God for Christainity in the East. They have been given a heavy Cross by the Lord. And you know what, the West wouldn’t have survived that. What Poland and others countries there survived is a testament to there roots in Christian Faith. Its no wonder God didn’t give the West that Cross.

If Islam is not true evil? I’ll tell you what, it sure bears a close resemblance in my mind.

The West also has it’s crosses to bare. It’s the rampant heresy that has rotted it from inside. Lukewarmness, political correctness and the ever growing apostasy.

 

[Mickey]

The West also has it’s crosses to bare.

Please forgive me for correcting you…but the word you are looking for here is** b-e-a-r**.

 

[jam070406]

Please forgive me for correcting you…but the word you are looking for here is** b-e-a-r**.

Oops! Thanks.

 

[Mickey]

Oops! Thanks.

 

[Contarini]

The Church Fathers teach that the existence of the one God can be discerned in creation. Socrates, Plato and other philosophers have been regarded as Christians before Christ along these lines.

Islam is somewhat a different bag. It entails, among other grievous errors, open rejection of God’s revelation of himself in Christ.

But Muslims and Christians share just as many things–I’d say more–as Christians and pagan Platonists. So your argument doesn’t fly here. You are clearly being inconsistent because of your earnest desire to avoid the logical conclusion that Muslims and Christians do worship the same God.

St. John the Damascene, one of the earliest Fathers to encounter Islam, calls the Muslims “Mutilators of God”, as they believe God is without word and spirit. Mohammad in the Quran flatly rejects that God has a Son.

Right. But did St. John say that Muslims don’t worship the true God at all? I think not.

The “God” worshiped by Muslims may be one and all-powerful, but is quite different from the triune, personal God worshiped by Christians.

I agree that there are differences (I’m baffled by the claim that the Islamic God is not “personal”). The question is how many differences in one’s ideas about God warrant one in saying that people are not worshiping God at all. And the traditional Christian answer seems to be that as long as there’s some kind of monotheism in place, we should speak of people as worshiping the true God imperfectly and erroneously.

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

The Fathers said the same thing about the Platonists who denied Christianity, which seems pretty close to the Muslim situation as you describe it…

Where did the Fathers say this?

One quick counterexample from Augustine: City of God Book 10, chap. 1: “That the Platonists Themselves Have Determined that God Alone Can Confer Happiness Either on Angels or Men, But that It Yet Remains a Question Whether Those Spirits Whom They Direct Us to Worship, that We May Obtain Happiness, Wish Sacrifice to Be Offered to Themselves, or to the One God Only.”

You can read the whole chapter at the link above. Augustine seems to have no doubts that the Platonists are speaking of the true God when they speak of the supreme Deity who ultimately confers happiness.

Perhaps some of the other Fathers spoke differently, or perhaps you have statements from Augustine that point in a different direction?

Edwin

 

[Madaglan]

But Muslims and Christians share just as many things–I’d say more–as Christians and pagan Platonists. So your argument doesn’t fly here. You are clearly being inconsistent because of your earnest desire to avoid the logical conclusion that Muslims and Christians do worship the same God.

Many similarities does not mean the same. By way of example, the Deists believe in one “God” who is cause of the universe, yet this one “God” is quite different from the God worshiped by Christians. Muslims claim to have the same Patriarchs and Prophets as Christians, yet upon inspection their versions are much different and in many cases in direct opposition to what is related in the Bible.

Right. But did St. John say that Muslims don’t worship the true God at all? I think not.

Contrarily, does St. John say they worship the same true God?

How can Muslims worship the true God when central to their worship is condemnation of God’s true worship?

I agree that there are differences (I’m baffled by the claim that the Islamic God is not “personal”). The question is how many differences in one’s ideas about God warrant one in saying that people are not worshiping God at all. And the traditional Christian answer seems to be that as long as there’s some kind of monotheism in place, we should speak of people as worshiping the true God imperfectly and erroneously.

Edwin

Personal in the sense of tri-hypostatic, a communion of persons.

My understanding is that those who have a false belief of God do not know him, and their worship is directed elsewhere.

 

[Mickey]

yet this one “God” is quite different from the God worshiped by Christians.

Yes. And although some people will go to great lengths to show that they are “ecumenical”, it is difficult to get around certain Scriptures:

Christ and the Father are One (John 10:30), and Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father (I John 2:23). Christ Himself is the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father except by Him (John 14:6).

 

[Bluegoat]

Where did the Fathers say this?

One quick counterexample from Augustine: City of God Book 10, chap. 1: “That the Platonists Themselves Have Determined that God Alone Can Confer Happiness Either on Angels or Men, But that It Yet Remains a Question Whether Those Spirits Whom They Direct Us to Worship, that We May Obtain Happiness, Wish Sacrifice to Be Offered to Themselves, or to the One God Only.”

You can read the whole chapter at the link above. Augustine seems to have no doubts that the Platonists are speaking of the true God when they speak of the supreme Deity who ultimately confers happiness.

Perhaps some of the other Fathers spoke differently, or perhaps you have statements from Augustine that point in a different direction?

Edwin

I was indeed thinking of Augustine. Yes, in the sense that is meant here, they were offering worship to the created spirits, so in a way I was speaking too broadly. I’m not sure that they did offer any actual worship to the One - it would seem a bit pointless since it could not be aware of it?

But as a comparison with Islam, Augustine clearly thought the One was the same as the God of the Christians, but misunderstood (and culpably misunderstood.) He is also clear that when the Platonists have mystical union or mystical visions of the One, it is of the real God. I think Muslims are clearly offering worship to what they perceive as God, not to some secondary created spirits.

 

[Contarini]

I was indeed thinking of Augustine. Yes, in the sense that is meant here, they were offering worship to the created spirits, so in a way I was speaking too broadly. I’m not sure that they did offer any actual worship to the One - it would seem a bit pointless since it could not be aware of it?

But as a comparison with Islam, Augustine clearly thought the One was the same as the God of the Christians, but misunderstood (and culpably misunderstood.) He is also clear that when the Platonists have mystical union or mystical visions of the One, it is of the real God. I think Muslims are clearly offering worship to what they perceive as God, not to some secondary created spirits.

Indeed. And thus it is wrong for Christians to say that “Allah” is some different being from the true God.

I have no problem with people qualifying the statement that Muslims worship the true God, by pointing out that we disagree strongly with some essential features of their understanding of God. Indeed, I would have a problem with people who didn’t so qualify the statement.

Edwin

 

[Mickey]

I have no problem with people qualifying the statement that Muslims worship the true God, by pointing out that we disagree strongly with some essential features of their understanding of God.

In other words, It is okay that they are worshipping a false god, because they do not know they are worshipping a false god.

 

[Contarini]

In other words, It is okay that they are worshipping a false god, because they do not know they are worshipping a false god.

No, that has nothing to do with what I said.

What I’m saying is that they have a mistaken understanding of essential aspects of God’s nature. However, that is no reason to say that they are worshiping a false god. None of us know God as He is. Aren’t you Orthodox supposed to be the ones who insist on that? I’m not denying the huge difference between an imperfect understanding of God and a false understanding of God. I’m simply saying that if for any of us "worshiping God’ meant “worshiping our understanding of God,” we would all be in big trouble.

Ironically, if I followed your approach, I’d have to say that you worship a false god. You and other hardliners on this issue seem to worship a God who is eager to zap people for any mistake in their understanding of Him. I worship a God who created us out of nothing through sheer generosity, who loves us before (temporally and logically) we have any awareness of Him, whose grace swoops in to fill the slightest crack in the armor of self-sufficiency we build around ourselves, who takes the slightest spark of desire for us (a spark He first lit) and fans it into a flame.

Since that is the God I worship, of course I am going to speak of other people’s worship by what is good and true first and foremost, without denying that there are aspects of their beliefs that seem seriously erroneous to me.

Edwin

 

[Mickey]

However, that is no reason to say that they are worshiping a false god.

A false prophet revealed a false god to them. Seems rather clear.

None of us know God as He is.

We know God by His Energies…but we can never know His Essence. And of course, God the Son was revealed to us in the flesh.

Christ and the Father are One (John 10:30), and Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father (I John 2:23). Christ Himself is the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father except by Him (John 14:6).

Aren’t you Orthodox supposed to be the ones who insist on that?

You Orthodox? Rather condescending eh?

Ironically, if I followed your approach, I’d have to say that you worship a false god.

You can say what you want. Ironically, your ecumenist approach to Islam is not something that I care to emulate.

You and other hardliners on this issue seem to worship a God who is eager to zap people for any mistake in their understanding of Him.

Sticks and stones do not hurt this “hardliner”.

I worship a God who created us out of nothing through sheer generosity

He created us out of pure and divine love. And He also revealed His Son to us–and the Holy Spirit proceeded from Him.

Since that is the God I worship, of course I am going to speak of other people’s worship by what is good and true first and foremost, without denying that there are aspects of their beliefs that seem seriously erroneous to me.

Yes. Erroneous is an understatement. I pray for Islam—but I cannot pray with them.

“Mohammad came with war, knives, pillaging, forced enslavements, murders & acts that are not from the Good God, but instigated by the chief manslayer, the devil.”
St Gregory Palamas

 

[jam070406]

A false prophet revealed a false god to them. Seems rather clear.

We know God by His Energies…but we can never know His Essence. And of course, God the Son was revealed to us in the flesh.

Christ and the Father are One (John 10:30), and Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father (I John 2:23). Christ Himself is the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father except by Him (John 14:6).
You Orthodox? Rather condescending eh?

You can say what you want. Ironically, your ecumenist approach to Islam is not something that I care to emulate.

Sticks and stones do not hurt this “hardliner”.
He created us out of pure and divine love. And He also revealed His Son to us–and the Holy Spirit proceeded from Him.
Yes. Erroneous is an understatement. I pray for Islam—but I cannot pray with them.

“Mohammad came with war, knives, pillaging, forced enslavements, murders & acts that are not from the Good God, but instigated by the chief manslayer, the devil.”
St Gregory Palamas

 

[Bluegoat]

In other words, It is okay that they are worshipping a false god, because they do not know they are worshipping a false god.

No one said anything about anyone being ok. Why do you think that has anything to do with the topic. Think of it in terms of theosis. Surely, in so far as they are worshiping truth, they are ok. In so far as they are worshiping something that is a construct, they have a problem - it is separating them from God. If it is done in ignorance, it is still a problem, but not perhaps the most terrible kind. If they are doing it at some level knowingly, it is very bad indeed. Either way they’d be better off with a correct understanding.

In fact, if you look at what we were discussing, Augustine said that the Platonists’ failure to give up on their understanding of “the One” and cleave to the Christian understanding was a culpable sin.

We all worship a false God to some extent. Not just because we cannot know him in his essence, but because we unwittingly add little bits that don’t belong there. When I think of God, I almost inevitably think of him as being geographically “up”. Of course I know that is not true, and it isn’t a huge deal anyway. But how many other little things do I unknowingly ascribe to him because of my own limitations? I’m not sure, but I see other people do it all the time, so I am guessing a lot.

 

[The_Sentry]

A false prophet revealed a false god to them. Seems rather clear…
Yes. Erroneous is an understatement. I pray for Islam—but I cannot pray with them.

Amen and amen. Very good.

 

[Mickey]

If they are doing it at some level knowingly, it is very bad indeed. Either way they’d be better off with a correct understanding.

Knowingly or unknowingly, it is a heresy. We know this. So is it okay for you to pray with heretics?

We all worship a false God to some extent.

Speak for yourself.

Not just because we cannot know him in his essence, but because we unwittingly add little bits that don’t belong there.

I cannot speak for you. But I do not add “little bits”. The Truth has been revealed to us—and there is only one Truth.

When I think of God, I almost inevitably think of him as being geographically “up”. Of course I know that is not true, and it isn’t a huge deal anyway.

Are you trying to make an analogy of a perception of heaven being somewhere “upward” with the heretical understanding of Islam?

 

[Bluegoat]

Knowingly or unknowingly, it is a heresy. We know this. So is it okay for you to pray with heretics?

Who said anything about praying with heretics? Why do you keep bringing in straw men? If Muslims are offering worship in some sense to God, I have no problem with that, and it is probably good for them. I sometimes get the impression that people will be somehow offended if they find themselves in Heaven seated next to a non-Christian.

I cannot speak for you. But I do not add “little bits”. The Truth has been revealed to us—and there is only one Truth.
Are you trying to make an analogy of a perception of heaven being somewhere “upward” with the heretical understanding of Islam?

Since even great saints struggle with this - unconsciously placing human categories on God - and much of our spiritual practice is designed to keep it to a minimum, i have my doubts. Perhaps you are much more spiritually advanced than most. Would you say the rest of us are worshiping a different God?

Thinking God is in space or time - and I know Christians who do - is in fact a sort of heresy. It is quite different than the Muslim mistakes – although it is interesting that you call them heresies, since a heresy is normally applied to other Christians. (there is in fact historical precedent for thinking of Islam as a Christian heresy.) My point was that the argument that you can still be worshiping God if you lack the fullness of truth, but not if you have positive mis-conceptions, would also cut out many kinds of Christians, and I am sure even members of your own group.

From an Orthodox perspective, the Catholics are fundamentally saying incorrect things about the Trinity - they are in fact heretics. I have never heard an Orthodox argue that they are worshiping a different God (though goodness knows it is possible.)

 

[Mickey]

If Muslims are offering worship in some sense to God, I have no problem with that

You have free will.

I sometimes get the impression that people will be somehow offended if they find themselves in Heaven seated next to a non-Christian.

Our ways are not God’s ways.

Perhaps you are much more spiritually advanced than most.

I am the worst of all sinners. But to say that “we all worship a false God to some extant” is ludicrous and disturbing.

My point was that the argument that you can still be worshiping God if you lack the fullness of truth, but not if you have positive mis-conceptions,

My point is: The false prophet Mohamet, revealed a false god to a nation.

From an Orthodox perspective, the Catholics are fundamentally saying incorrect things about the Trinity - they are in fact heretics.

I would say heterodox. But I am not talking about Catholics and protestants, I am talking about Islam.

**“Save O Lord and have mercy upon all who are deceived by Islam, and bring them to faith in Thee.” **

 

[Mickey]

It is quite different than the Muslim mistakes – although it is interesting that you call them heresies, since a heresy is normally applied to other Christians.

Mohamet devised his false teachings (in part) after conversation with an Arian monk.