Catholic or Orthodox

[dzheremi]

I don’t believe authority is less clear-cut in Orthodoxy than in Catholicism (it is less centralized, sure), but even if it were, why wouldn’t that be okay? Like it or not, when Christ established His Church here on Earth, no matter what church you believe that to be, He did not leave a defined hierarchy of the type we see in the Roman Catholic Church. What Catholics see as the public establishment of the papacy (“on this rock…”) is seen by the Orthodox in a different manner, so why wouldn’t a different hierarchical model of church organization emerge from that? To presume that all should see the organization of the church as the modern Roman Catholic papacy sees it is to ignore several inconvenient facts, such as:

(1) The first chair to use the term of “Pope”, that of St. Mark in Alexandria (today’s Coptic Orthodox), does not for a minute view that office as conferring any extra-jurisdictional powers to its holder;

(2) The Eastern Catholic churches in union with Rome don’t even view it as the Latins do. If that weren’t the case, then why was the overwhelming cry from the recent Middle Eastern Synod “More power to the patriarchs”?

(3) The historical view of the RCC is unacceptably retroactive with regard to apologetics. Saints, both east and west, from times long before anyone had ever declared themselves infallible or possessing of universal jurisdiction are invoked to “prove” this or that point regarding the modern Papacy. Do the Orthodox do this too with regard to their anti-Papal claims? Sure. The difference is that, in the absence of ever having held any single human as infallible or possessing of universal jurisdiction, they have room to be flexible. The RCC, on the other hand, must perform all kinds of pretzel logic when (for instance) presented with the fact that Pope Leo III forbade the filioque in 809 AD, yet it is present and a de fide statement today, as it has been for many centuries.

I do not like things that destroy the past. I hate it when Islamic arguments do that, so you can bet I doubly hate it when RCC apologetics do that.

 

[Nine_Two]

The Orthodox view of Catholicity, on the other hand, is a perfect circle of more or less static doctrine and liturgy

The Orthodox view of the liturgy is not that it is static, in fact it has continually changed over time. If it were static than it would be identical in the Parish I regularly attend and the parish I used to attend, which is a former mission of my current parish. Fr. Lawrence Farley wrote an excellent book “Let us attend” examining how the liturgy has changed over time. While Orthodox Churches today use something similar to St. John’s original liturgy, it is not the exact same.

As for doctrine, if God is unchanging why does doctrine need to change?

 

[Mickey]

I do not like things that destroy the past. I hate it when Islamic arguments do that, so you can bet I doubly hate it when RCC apologetics do that.

 

[jam070406]

The final purification?
This quote is definitely not an apologetic for the RC doctrine of purgatory.

Well, it seems that you are the one engaging in polemics. But perhaps we should not allow this thread to mutate into another purgatory debate?

Some of us may need to be purified.

Please pray for me.

 

[ConstantineTG]

I once wondered about Orthodoxy. I felt a pull Eastwards. After a quick discernment, I cannot accept not following the man who occupies the chair of Peter. The way I see scripture, it points to Peter’s supremacy and the need for a Supreme Pontiff for the Church on earth. So I stayed Catholic and instead explored Eastern Catholicism. I now regularly go to a UGCC parish.

Most of the doctrines are the same as we both have the same Deposit of Faith from Christ. Its a matter of looking at the points of contention, the biggest one is Papal Supremacy. You can basically believe what the Orthodox believe and be in union with the Pope by becoming Eastern Catholic.

 

[ConstantineTG]

The Orthodox view of the liturgy is not that it is static, in fact it has continually changed over time. If it were static than it would be identical in the Parish I regularly attend and the parish I used to attend, which is a former mission of my current parish. Fr. Lawrence Farley wrote an excellent book “Let us attend” examining how the liturgy has changed over time. While Orthodox Churches today use something similar to St. John’s original liturgy, it is not the exact same.

As for doctrine, if God is unchanging why does doctrine need to change?

Right, there has been organic development over time. In a thread a month or two ago. Br. David (Byzcath) mentioned that the prayer before Communion in the Divine Liturgy is unique to the Ukrainian and Ruthenian Churches. Not sure if its also the Catholic side or both the Catholic and Orthodox Churches. I wonder what other Byzantine Churches would have for prayers before Communion?

 

[Madaglan]

Yes, though i would be careful about assuming too much about this - in places where Orthodoxy is the main religious group, there are some huge Orthodox congregations, and small intimate Catholic ones. Even in the US, I know a woman whose Orthodox church is so large it takes more than two hours to communicate everyone. Even so, the priests seem much more involved in the individuals lives than in many catholic parishes. But the priest shortage may be to blame there to a large degree.

Yes, I know not all churches are the same. I’ve been to a few Latin Catholic churches that are smaller, and they are nice in that regard. I’m just speaking from my experience in general. I have been in some Catholic environments where priest-parishioner interaction is quite good (e.g. Newman Club).

 

[a_priori]

I believe that there is one Church …but which branch…ortho or cath.?? please help

Ultimately unanswerable if metaphysical certitude is required.

 

[Madaglan]

Right, there has been organic development over time. In a thread a month or two ago. Br. David (Byzcath) mentioned that the prayer before Communion in the Divine Liturgy is unique to the Ukrainian and Ruthenian Churches. Not sure if its also the Catholic side or both the Catholic and Orthodox Churches. I wonder what other Byzantine Churches would have for prayers before Communion?

Which prayer? I’m wondering because I attended a Ruthenian Catholic parish before attending ACROD and then OCA. I notice that the Ruthenian & ACROD version of the “I believe, O Lord, and I confess…” pre-communion prayer includes repetitions and an arrangement slightly different from the same pre-communion prayer said in the OCA. However, this same pre-communion prayer I’ve heard in an Antiochian Orthodox church, so I am not sure if the prayer itself is specific to the Ukrainian and Ruthenian Churches.

 

[Madaglan]

Yes, not all churches are the same. I’ve been to a few Latin Catholic churches that are smaller, and I’ve found those some of the best in terms of community. I’m just speaking from my experience in general. I have been in some Catholic environments where priest-parishioner interaction is quite good (e.g. Newman Club).

 

[dvdjs]

Because it doesn .

The most obvious answer, which applies even in Catholic theology, is that just because you pray for someone today, doesn’t mean that if God so chooses he must “apply” the effects today or tomorrow. He could also apply them ten years ago, before the person died and before you said the prayer. That is a pretty basic principle.

This is a very interesting response. There is little to be gained by discussing what God might choose. But I am interested by your suggestion that praying for the dead might actually be considered by the Church, or by those saying such prayers, as having been previously applicable, before death. Is there any theological backing for that idea? Anything from the fathers?

 

[dvdjs]

Because

1. It ignores the basic problem described by Hart–that the juridical, penal way Purgatory has traditionally been spoken of in the West distorts the entire Christian doctrine of sanctification;

What tradition is this? What is dogmatic, since Florence, is simple and clear, and doesn’t any of this.

1. It assumes that we need to have some account of how prayer for the dead “works” in order to do it. That’s a case where rationalism is irrational. To engage in intercessory prayer at all is to place the one for whom we pray in God’s merciful hands without having a very clear idea of just how our prayer is directly affects the person in question.

I am not sure of your point, but it does not seem to be connected with Catholic dogma on purgatory.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Which prayer? I’m wondering because I attended a Ruthenian Catholic parish before attending ACROD and then OCA. I notice that the Ruthenian & ACROD version of the “I believe, O Lord, and I confess…” pre-communion prayer includes repetitions and an arrangement slightly different from the same pre-communion prayer said in the OCA. However, this same pre-communion prayer I’ve heard in an Antiochian Orthodox church, so I am not sure if the prayer itself is specific to the Ukrainian and Ruthenian Churches.

This:

*I believe, O Lord, and confess that You are truly Christ, the Son of the living God, Who came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am first. Accept me this day, O son of God, as a partaker of Your mystical Supper. I will not tell the mystery to Your enemies, nor will I give You a kiss as did Judas, but like the thief, I confess to You:
Remember me, O Lord, when You come into Your kingdom.
Remember me, O Master, when You come into Your kingdom,
Remember me, O Holy One, when You come into Your kingdom.
May the partaking of Your Holy Mysteries, O Lord, be unto me not for judgment or condemnation but for the healing of the soul and body.
God, be merciful to me a sinner.
God, cleanse me of my sins and have mercy on me.
I have sinned without number, forgive me, O Lord. *

Well, as I said, I just got that info from someone else. I’m unsure so I put it out here and see what other Byzantine Rite Churches use or do.

 

[Nine_Two]

Right, there has been organic development over time. In a thread a month or two ago. Br. David (Byzcath) mentioned that the prayer before Communion in the Divine Liturgy is unique to the Ukrainian and Ruthenian Churches. Not sure if its also the Catholic side or both the Catholic and Orthodox Churches. I wonder what other Byzantine Churches would have for prayers before Communion?

The copy of the Divine Liturgy on the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of North America website includes the prayer. I’m not sure where that came in. I’m sure Fr, Lawrence’s book would include that but unfortunetly I left my copy at my office.

 

[dvdjs]

Yes, I was just arguing in response to the article here. This is basic in the sense that a full grown Christian ought to be able to think of it and realize that Purgatory is not the only reasonable way to rationalize praying for the dead.

This perspective seems overly rationalistic to me. The basic question is not how many ways can we rationalize praying for the dead, but: what is it that the Church believes about our praying for the dead?

 

[ConstantineTG]

The copy of the Divine Liturgy on the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of North America website includes the prayer. I’m not sure where that came in. I’m sure Fr, Lawrence’s book would include that but unfortunetly I left my copy at my office.

Its similar but different:

*I believe and confess, Lord, that You are truly the Christ, the Son of the living God, who came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the first. I also believe that this is truly Your pure Body and that this is truly Your precious Blood. Therefore, I pray to You, have mercy upon me, and forgive my transgressions, voluntary and involuntary, in word and deed, known and unknown. And make me worthy without condemnation to partake of Your pure Mysteries for the forgiveness of sins and for life eternal. Amen.

How shall I, who am unworthy, enter into the splendor of Your saints? If I dare to enter into the bridal chamber, my clothing will accuse me, since it is not a wedding garment; and being bound up, I shall be cast out by the angels. In Your love, Lord, cleanse my soul and save me.

Loving Master, Lord Jesus Christ, my God, let not these holy Gifts be to my condemnation because of my unworthiness, but for the cleansing and sanctification of soul and body and the pledge of the future life and kingdom. It is good for me to cling to God and to place in Him the hope of my salvation.

Receive me today, Son of God, as a partaker of Your mystical Supper. I will not reveal Your mystery to Your adversaries. Nor will I give You a kiss as did Judas. But as the thief I confess to You: Lord, remember me in Your kingdom.
*

The one we use is more concise while this one is more elaborate in the words.

 

[dvdjs]

While Orthodox Churches today use something similar to St. John’s original liturgy, it is not the exact same.

Not all that similar really.

As for doctrine, if God is unchanging why does doctrine need to change?

Truth does not change, but our language, our concepts, our categories do change. We change. Thus the way we approach and comprehend truth changes.

 

[Madaglan]

This is a very interesting response. There is little to be gained by discussing what God might choose. But I am interested by your suggestion that praying for the dead might actually be considered by the Church, or by those saying such prayers, as having been previously applicable, before death. Is there any theological backing for that idea? Anything from the fathers?

See St. Gregory’s “Against Those Who Deny That Prayer Works Backwards”

We know God as pre-existent and eternal, outside the confines of time. We often think of God as before the ages, but He is just as much at the consummation of the ages as at the beginning. Perhaps we can say that our future, though distant for us, already is realized for God, who is omniscient and does not limit himself to acting according to a gradual forward motion of time.

I do not know what the Fathers have to say on this matter, but that’s just a thought.

 

[MGLechner]

Anybody for the Anglican Middle Way? Anybody?

+ + +

 

[Madaglan]

This:

I believe, O Lord, and confess that You are truly Christ, the Son of the living God, Who came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am first. Accept me this day, O son of God, as a partaker of Your mystical Supper. I will not tell the mystery to Your enemies, nor will I give You a kiss as did Judas, but like the thief, I confess to You:
Remember me, O Lord, when You come into Your kingdom.
Remember me, O Master, when You come into Your kingdom,
Remember me, O Holy One, when You come into Your kingdom.
May the partaking of Your Holy Mysteries, O Lord, be unto me not for judgment or condemnation but for the healing of the soul and body.
God, be merciful to me a sinner.
God, cleanse me of my sins and have mercy on me.
I have sinned without number, forgive me, O Lord.

Well, as I said, I just got that info from someone else. I’m unsure so I put it out here and see what other Byzantine Rite Churches use or do.

The Ruthenian & ACROD churches include the underlined verses in the prayer. Usually, the sign of the cross is made after each “Remember me”. The OCA churches and the Antiochian churches I’ve been to say only the first Remember me, omitting the second and third ones, which I understand are particular to the Ruthenians (and maybe Ukrainians, don’t know on that).

Here is the OCA version:

*I believe, O Lord, and I confess that Thou art truly the Christ, the Son of the Living God Who camest into the world to save sinners, of whom I am first. I believe also that this is truly Thine Own Most Pure Body, and this is truly Thine Own Precious Blood, Therefore, I pray Thee: have mercy upon me and forgive my transgressions both voluntary and involuntary, of word and of deed, committed in knowledge or in ignorance. And make me worthy to partake without condemnation of Thy most pure Mysteries, for the remission of my sins, and unto life everlasting. Amen. Of Thy Mystical Supper, O Son of God, accept me today as a communicant; for I will not speak of Thy Mystery to Thine enemies, neither like Judas will I give Thee a kiss, but like the thief will I confess Thee: Rememeber me, O Lord, in Thy Kingdom. May the communion of Thy holy Mysteries be neither to my judgment, nor to my condemnation, O Lord, but to the healing of soul and body. Amen. [God be merciful to me…]

*You can note the change of location for certain verses. One thing that surprises me about the version you provide is that it does not mention the verse I believe also that this is truly Thine Own Most Pure Body…Thine Own Precious Blood. I distinctly remember this being part of the pre-communion prayer at the Ruthenian Catholic church I attended. Is this sometimes omitted?