Catholic or Orthodox

  • Thread starter Thread starter Janks777
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Mickey said:
Indeed.
Click to expand...
How is it lame? If Orthodox believe the faithfully departed may go through a cleansing before entering Heaven and prayers may benefit that process then it really is a non-issue like Aikin said.
 
Bluegoat said:
Some do. But they don’t dogmatize it, and they don’t attach it to ideas about merit and penance.

But even then I find myself hesitating, because some would say that everyone enters Heaven. Also, I am not sure, but many seem to have a somewhat different conception of the chain of events after death and leading up to judgment.

For some, there are some similarities to what some Catholics believe about Purgatory. But to say that this means they are saying the same thing is not accurate.
Click to expand...
He didn’t claim they were exactly the same.
 
Bluegoat said:
Some do. But they don’t dogmatize it
Click to expand...
"… The failure of the union of Florence meant that the East returned to its view that the state of the soul after death was not clearly defined in Scripture or tradition and that therefore there was not an official Orthodox doctrine on the question, but only various private theologoumena, which could not be proved from the norms of the church’s teaching.
Dr. Jaroslav Pelikan
 
jam070406 said:
If Orthodox believe the faithfully departed may go through a cleansing before entering Heaven and prayers may benefit that process then it really is a non-issue like Aikin said.
Click to expand...
You seem to be very interested in purgatory. It probably deserves it’s own thread–but there have been many.
 
Mickey said:
You seem to be very interested in purgatory. It probably deserves it’s own thread–but there have been many.
Click to expand...
No, I’m interested in what you belief because you telling Catholics they’re wrong that souls of the faithful may need to be purified before entering Heaven.
 
Mickey said:
"… The failure of the union of Florence meant that the East returned to its view that the state of the soul after death was not clearly defined in Scripture or tradition and that therefore there was not an official Orthodox doctrine on the question, but only various private theologoumena, which could not be proved from the norms of the church’s teaching.
Dr. Jaroslav Pelikan
Click to expand...
This does not deny souls may need purification. :confused:
 
jam070406 said:
No, I’m interested in what you belief because you telling Catholics they’re wrong
Click to expand...
I do not subscribe to the Latin doctrine of purgatory complete with it’s links to indulgences. I will never accept this doctrine as an Orthodox Christian. I’m not sure what else to tell you.

I repent and confess and attempt to live a life pleasing to God in this world…after that…I leave it to the mercy of God. I am not forced to profess a belief in the purgatory.
 
Jim_Dandy said:
The cover of This Rock magazine for October 2008 announces the article: “The Appeal of Eastern Orthodoxy – and Its Fatal Flaw” by Fr. Brian W. Harrison, O.S. Inside, on page 18, the article is introduced: “I found myself confronted by the reality of two great communions – the two largest in Christendom, in fact – presenting themselves as rival claimants to the gift of infallibility.” The article follows:

catholic.com/thisrock/2008/0810fea3.asp

It was not written by Jimmy Akin.

Jim Dandy

Edit to add: I reviewed my first post and realize the error was mine. I initially posted the wrong link. I apologize. Sorry.
Click to expand...
I only read the first bit before I gave up.

First off he starts out by looking for “infallibile authority”, second he openly admits he was only attracted because it wasn’t Catholic, and third he bases his experience on an inner city ethnic Parish. That would be like me going to an inner city Spanish speaking Catholic Church and expecting everyone to be able to converse with me. That’s quite arrogant. Because these churches exist are we to accept that the Catholic Church isn’t catholic?

With the incredible amount of flawed logic in that small amount I stopped reading. If someone has a coherent argument they should at least get an introduction off without making it clear they are only into polemics.
 
jam070406 said:
How is it lame? If Orthodox believe the faithfully departed may go through a cleansing before entering Heaven and prayers may benefit that process then it really is a non-issue like Aikin said.
Click to expand...
The definition of purgatory has certainly been diluted to make that argument work.
 
jam070406 said:
No, I’m interested in what you belief because you telling Catholics they’re wrong that souls of the faithful may need to be purified before entering Heaven.
Click to expand...
There is a major difference between saying you are wrong, and saying we do not know.
 
I have to say, the most convincing arguments to become Orthodox are the ones supported by Latin ultramontanist apologists.
 
Mickey said:
Sorry. I know many Catholics (especially Eastern) who do not agree with the term “supreme” and/or “supremacy”. 🤷
Click to expand...
So what do they have to do with me? I clearly presented my own opinion, why are you forcing me to change my opinion based on your perception on what Eastern Catholics should believe?
 
jam070406 said:
How is it lame? If Orthodox believe the faithfully departed may go through a cleansing before entering Heaven and prayers may benefit that process then it really is a non-issue like Aikin said.
Click to expand...
jam070406 said:
He didn’t claim they were exactly the same.
Click to expand...
So, on the one hand you say that Aiken, and yourself, realize the understanding is not the same. On the other you say that if the Orthodox believe there may be a clensing of some kind after death there is really no issue. Do you not see a problem.
  1. The Orthodox and Catholic view are different, and the Orthodox think the differences are important. This is especially so in the relation of purgatory to merit and penance. (However, as Nine Two pointed out, this is very much glossed over by a lot of modern Catholics, and I believe even in the CCC. But they are related doctrines.)
  2. The CC says members must believe it, and the OC doesn’t. This in itself it a very important point. Even if some Orthodox believed in exactly the same type of purgatory as Catholics do, it would be a major difference.
How this can mean it is a non-issue is bizarre to me.
 
Bluegoat said:
So, on the one hand you say that Aiken, and yourself, realize the understanding is not the same. On the other you say that if the Orthodox believe there may be a clensing of some kind after death there is really no issue. Do you not see a problem.
  1. The Orthodox and Catholic view are different, and the Orthodox think the differences are important. This is especially so in the relation of purgatory to merit and penance. (However, as Nine Two pointed out, this is very much glossed over by a lot of modern Catholics, and I believe even in the CCC. But they are related doctrines.)
  2. The CC says members must believe it, and the OC doesn’t. This in itself it a very important point. Even if some Orthodox believed in exactly the same type of purgatory as Catholics do, it would be a major difference.
How this can mean it is a non-issue is bizarre to me.
Click to expand...
How is it bizarre?
Both believe we need cleansing. But they differ on how that exactly happens.
What’s so difficult? 🤷
 
Nine_Two said:
There is a major difference between saying you are wrong, and saying we do not know.
Click to expand...
Of course. And I asked this question to Mickey and he was honest enough to tell me he thinks the Catholic Church is wrong.
 
jam070406 said:
How is it bizarre?
Both believe we need cleansing. But they differ on how that exactly happens.
What’s so difficult? 🤷
Click to expand...
But both do not believe we need cleansing. Although I’ve only been Orthodox for a few years, I have never heard of any type of cleansing taking place after death. I’ve never even heard the “toll houses” concept referred to as a type of cleansing. Its just demons accusing and tempting souls, no purifying act of any kind.

Fellow Orthodox could correct me if I’m wrong but I don’t think there’s any Orthodox teaching that says the soul needs to be cleansed before it enters heaven.
 
jam070406 said:
Of course. And I asked this question to Mickey and he was honest enough to tell me he thinks the Catholic Church is wrong.
Click to expand...
And as a member of the Orthodox Church he is fully in line with the church believing that, in fact he is probably in line with the majority of Orthodox Christians there. However getting individual thoughts is not the same thing as getting the actual position, which as has been stated a million times is that we have no doctrine on what happens between death and the last judgement, and this alone puts us at odds with the Catholic Church without saying you are wrong.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top