Catholic or Orthodox

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It has been my experience that in general most average Catholic’s do not understand what Orthodoxy is and think that all Orthodox are the same that is in communion with each other which really is not the case from what those Orthodox who post say. Some orthodox are in communion with each other and some are not. The average Catholic are not very informed even about Eastern Rite Catholic’s or other Catholic Rites. This may not be true of posters on this CAF forums but of those outside of chat rooms and forums.
All Orthodox who belong to jurisdictions that are members of SCOBA (CONFERENCE OF CANONICAL BISHOPS IN AMERICA) are in communion with each other. The Orthodox not in SCOBA are few. They are mostly consisted of small non-canonical groups who make a huge deal out of the old calendar.
 
Here’s a tip for you: the First Letter to the Corinthians, as was all of the New Testament, was originally written in koine Greek, not English. So trotting out the grammar of a particular English translation of a passage that most likely was not intended to deal with the issue at hand in the first place is not particularly persuasive.

Here is what I DO find persuasive on this issue: “Drink, ALL OF YOU…”
However, Jesus spoke Aramaic,not Greek as well as His Apostles. So Aramaic was first spoken and only later translated into Greek and so on. People always seem to forget that simple and evident fact.
 
However, Jesus spoke Aramaic,not Greek as well as His Apostles. So Aramaic was first spoken and only later translated into Greek and so on. People always seem to forget that simple and evident fact.
This is a non-point, as it is exactly the same in Aramaic. Here, listen to and read the eucharistic dialogue in Aramaic (well, Classical Syriac) from the Syriac Maronite Church, and notice how it still says “Take and drink it all of you” (2:08-2:15): youtube.com/watch?v=1mn6Ltcv978
 
Catholic or Orthodox

I am curious as to which version of Christianity is more correct, and the arguments for and against each branch or sect of Christianity.
Here’s an argument for Catholicism: catholicism. As is true with Protestants, you cannot speak of the Orthodox church, you can only speak of the Orthodox churches. These churches are obviously not catholic/universal.

Along these same lines, it is the Catholic Church, not the Roman Catholic Church. There is a Roman rite in the Catholic Church, but there are also Eastern rites. In general, for every Orthodox rite, there is a corresponding Catholic Orthodox rite. The fact is, many Eastern Christians are Catholic, not Orthodox. Their Eastern liturgy is fully recognized by the Catholic church, because She is catholic.

God bless,
-zip
 
Here’s an argument for Catholicism: catholicism. As is true with Protestants, you cannot speak of the Orthodox church, you can only speak of the Orthodox churches. These churches are obviously not catholic/universal.

Along these same lines, it is the Catholic Church, not the Roman Catholic Church. There is a Roman rite in the Catholic Church, but there are also Eastern rites. In general, for every Orthodox rite, there is a corresponding Catholic Orthodox rite. The fact is, many Eastern Christians are Catholic, not Orthodox. Their Eastern liturgy is fully recognized by the Catholic church, because She is catholic.

God bless,
-zip
So you are saying, there is only one Catholic Church, and from this one catholics exist different rites. Orthodox Church is the Eastern Rite, and the Roman Catholic Church is the Western Rite???
 
This is a non-point, as it is exactly the same in Aramaic. Here, listen to and read the eucharistic dialogue in Aramaic (well, Classical Syriac) from the Syriac Maronite Church, and notice how it still says “Take and drink it all of you” (2:08-2:15): youtube.com/watch?v=1mn6Ltcv978
I am well aware of what your are stating. My point is that Jesus spoke Aramaic,not Greek. The NT might have been written in Koine Greek,but that is after the fact:

Jesus spoke Aramaic and very possible the first manuscripts were in Aramaic.

Not knocking Greek,simply pointing out a fact.
 
Here’s an argument for Catholicism: catholicism. As is true with Protestants, you cannot speak of the Orthodox church, you can only speak of the Orthodox churches. These churches are obviously not catholic/universal.
Why is that? How is it obvious that the Orthodox Church is not catholic? And why can you not speak of the Orthodox Church, but only Orthodox churches? (What does that mean?)
 
Well consider: suppose I start a new denomination and call it “the Roman Catholic Church”. Would that create a problem for your faith?
I really thought my question was most sincere
I think so too. 🙂 I thought my post was pretty good too (if I don’t say so myself 😊). But reading your response to it I don’t see how to continue the conversation without it just being a one-way street. So I guess I’ll “give you the last word” as Bill O’Reilly says. :cool:
 
So you are saying, there is only one Catholic Church, and from this one catholics exist different rites. Orthodox Church is the Eastern Rite, and the Roman Catholic Church is the Western Rite???
No, not quite, but close. It is true that there is only one Catholic Church, but it is not the case that the Orthodox churches form the Eastern rites and the Roman Catholic Church forms the Western rite.

The Catholic Church has many rites. Some are Western, and some are Eastern. For example, there is a Coptic rite and a Byzantine rite in the Catholic Church. All rites of the Catholic Church acknowledge the Pope as the head of the Church (or Christianity).

There is also an Orthodox Coptic church and an Orthodox Byzantine church. Neither recognizes the Pope as the head of Christianity. So there is a difference between the Catholic Coptic rite and the Orthodox Coptic Church, or the Catholic Byzantine rite and the Orthodox Byzantine Church.

My point is that the Catholic Church is larger than the Roman Catholic rite. Odds are, whatever you like about Orthodoxy is contained in the Eastern rites of the Catholic Church. It is simply not the case that all Eastern Christians are Orthodox. Many are Catholic.
 
No, not quite, but close. It is true that there is only one Catholic Church, but it is not the case that the Orthodox churches form the Eastern rites and the Roman Catholic Church forms the Western rite.

The Catholic Church has many rites. Some are Western, and some are Eastern. For example, there is a Coptic rite and a Byzantine rite in the Catholic Church. All rites of the Catholic Church acknowledge the Pope as the head of the Church (or Christianity).

There is also an Orthodox Coptic church and an Orthodox Byzantine church. Neither recognizes the Pope as the head of Christianity. So there is a difference between the Catholic Coptic rite and the Orthodox Coptic Church, or the Catholic Byzantine rite and the Orthodox Byzantine Church.

My point is that the Catholic Church is larger than the Roman Catholic rite. Odds are, whatever you like about Orthodoxy is contained in the Eastern rites of the Catholic Church. It is simply not the case that all Eastern Christians are Orthodox. Many are Catholic.
Well, that is a good argument for the Catholic Church, from a certain perspective.

So does the Catholic Byzantine Rite, trace its lineage back to St Andrew like the Greek Orthodox Church does, and does the Catholic Coptic Rite traces its lineage back to St Mark, like the Coptic Orthodox Church does??

Or do they both Byzantine Rite and Coptic Rite trace their lineage back to St Peter, like the Roman Catholic???
 
No, not quite, but close. It is true that there is only one Catholic Church, but it is not the case that the Orthodox churches form the Eastern rites and the Roman Catholic Church forms the Western rite.

The Catholic Church has many rites. Some are Western, and some are Eastern. For example, there is a Coptic rite and a Byzantine rite in the Catholic Church. All rites of the Catholic Church acknowledge the Pope as the head of the Church (or Christianity).

There is also an Orthodox Coptic church and an Orthodox Byzantine church. Neither recognizes the Pope as the head of Christianity. So there is a difference between the Catholic Coptic rite and the Orthodox Coptic Church, or the Catholic Byzantine rite and the Orthodox Byzantine Church.

My point is that the Catholic Church is larger than the Roman Catholic rite. Odds are, whatever you like about Orthodoxy is contained in the Eastern rites of the Catholic Church. It is simply not the case that all Eastern Christians are Orthodox. Many are Catholic.
Uumm…are you sure? I thought the Latin Rite (Roman) was the largest in terms of the faithful?
 
Well, that is a good argument for the Catholic Church, from a certain perspective.

So does the Catholic Byzantine Rite, trace its lineage back to St Andrew like the Greek Orthodox Church does, and does the Catholic Coptic Rite traces its lineage back to St Mark, like the Coptic Orthodox Church does??

Or are they both Byzantine and Coptic traces its lineage back to St Peter.
To my knowledge, in general the various rites would trace their lineage in the same way their Orthodox counterpart does. So no, they would not all trace their lineage to St. Peter. The reason there is an Orthodox counterpart to the Catholic rites (or a Catholic counterpart to the Orthodox churches, depending on how you look at it) is because there was an internal conflict in the body over whether to stay in full communion with the Catholic Church. So you have a split where some are in full communion with the Catholic Church and some are not, while the liturgies remain essentially the same. Some rites, such as the Maronite, are fully Catholic with no Orthodox counterpart.
Uumm…are you sure? I thought the Latin Rite (Roman) was the largest in terms of the faithful?
The Latin rite is the largest Catholic rite, but that does not invalidate my claim that the Catholic Church is larger than the Roman Catholic rite.
 
I think that phyletism is being fought in at least two jurisdictions in America. The Orthodox Church in America, and the Antiochian archdiocese. I have been to both and I prefer the OCA. Both churches have members from different ethnicities giving no overwhelming weight to just one. Both of those churches use mostly English for the Divine Liturgy. And many in both churches are non-ethnic Americans.

But what about phyletism in the Latin church? In the larger cities there are Irish, German, Polish and Mexican parishes. Sounds a lot like phyletism to me at least.
Andrew, it is not my intent to be difficult but this is not phyletism, i.e., there is more to phyletism than just having local churches with a predominantly Irish, German, Polish and Mexican parish, please read what I’ve pasted by Metropolitan Jonah describing what phyletism is or you can read this article/podcast by Father Peter Alban Heers:

ancientfaith.com/podcasts/postcards/phyletism

God bless.
 
To my knowledge, in general the various rites would trace their lineage in the same way their Orthodox counterpart does. So no, they would not all trace their lineage to St. Peter. The reason there is an Orthodox counterpart to the Catholic rites (or a Catholic counterpart to the Orthodox churches, depending on how you look at it) is because **there was an internal conflict in the body over whether to stay in full communion with the Catholic Church. ** So you have a split where some are in full communion with the Catholic Church and some are not, while the liturgies remain essentially the same. Some rites, such as the Maronite, are fully Catholic with no Orthodox counterpart.
.
So what was the cause of the internal conflict? It must have been something real serious that it required the Church to split as it did, in so many way.
 
So what was the cause of the internal conflict? It must have been something real serious that it required the Church to split as it did, in so many way.
This is a particularly touchy and complicated topic, and one that you need to investigate on your own to some extent. The breaking point is known as “The Great Schism” or “The Eastern Schism.” It was the result of a series of religious and political tensions between the Eastern and Western rites/churches of Christianity. As you can imagine, the details and conclusions surrounding the schism are controversial par excellence.

My argument above intentionally transcends the millions of viewpoints, arguments, and historical details surrounding the schism. I think the argument carries weight even in light of the fact that it is notoriously hard to mount a bulletproof argument regarding the schism from either side of the fence. It should also be noted that the Catholic Church’s number one ecumenical priority is the separated Orthodox. With God’s grace, we will be united once more.

May God lead you in your journey. I pray that you come into full communion with the Catholic Church. I would be lying if I said that I did not have great respect for my separated Orthodox brothers and sisters, but as a Catholic, I do not have to forego the Eastern liturgies. The Catholic Church fully recognizes those liturgies, and I sometimes attend the local (Catholic) Maronite or (Catholic) Byzantine rite churches. That said, it is unfortunate that we sometimes forget how beautiful and rich the Latin rite is–at least when it is done well. 🙂
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Expatreprocedit
Here’s a tip for you: the First Letter to the Corinthians, as was all of the New Testament, was originally written in koine Greek, not English. So trotting out the grammar of a particular English translation of a passage that most likely was not intended to deal with the issue at hand in the first place is not particularly persuasive.

Here is what I DO find persuasive on this issue: “Drink, ALL OF YOU…”
However, Jesus spoke Aramaic,not Greek as well as His Apostles. So Aramaic was first spoken and only later translated into Greek and so on. People always seem to forget that simple and evident fact.
I didn’t forget it, it simply has no bearing on the issue. First, we were talking about a Pauline passage, not a Gospel passage. St. Paul wrote in Greek. Second, even with regard to the gospels, we don’t have Jesus’ Aramaic sayings (scholarly surmises aside) we have the Koine Greek text compiled by the Apsotles or under their direction. My point was that in determining the meaning of scripture, the Greek original is preferable to an English translation.
 
I really thought my question was most sincere - “How does one know?”. **I’m not sure how to take these two responses **but honestly I still don’t know and yet it seems to be quite simple. I really am willing to add more learning to what you have gave me in the last 24 hours. Could I get a simple straight forward answer?

Peace!!!
You take them in the way they were presented, which really should tell you something.
 
You take them in the way they were presented, which really should tell you something.
You are about the 3rd person that has assumed my question has been answered and therefore I must concede my ignorance once again. I trust you guys have, in some way, answered my question but I haven’t seen it.

I can’t help feel like my intensions were somehow misunderstood and assumed to be rhetorical but that is nor ever has been my intension as my respect for the Orthodox faith is great.

Sorry for taking your time. :imsorry:

Peace!!!
 
Thank for your welcome Randy. Here is my answer: I believe that when one receives consecrated (by the priest and the Holy Spirit) bread and wine, one receives the Body and Blood of Christ. I believe that Christ clearly indicated at the Last Supper that He intended the Faithful to recieve both the consecrated “elements”: I quoted the pertinent words in my last post. There is nothing that I am aware of that to indicate that it was not normative and routine in the Church, east and west, from Pentecost up to roughly 1300AD in the west, for communicants, clerical and lay, to receive both at regular liturgies. There were instances of monastics and also the sick and shut-ins from recieving one or the other element. In those cases, I believe that God is quite capable of communicating both His Son’s body and blood through one element. That does not mean that it was Christ’s intention that only one element be routinely offered to the laity at Mass. Since they did not have access to the Cup, I do not believe God withholds his full grace from them, even though they partake of only one element. That does not mean that those in the Church responsible for initiating and perpetuating the practice of withholding the Cup were not culpable in innovating on the Eucharist. I do not believe it is necessary or helpful to try and ascertain the exact process whereby Christ gives to us his Body and Blood in the Eucharist. For whatever reason, He intended to the bread to be outward symbol under which his Body is received, and the Cup to be that under which His blood is received. That is enough for me. Whether or not that makes Christ “divided” is not a huge problem for me; if it does make Him “divided” it would only be in a very limited sense. I hope that was helpful.
In the past, it was more common for the Bishops to withhold the cup from the laity. The PURPOSE of this decision was to teach an important theological truth: namely, that Christ is fully present in the host (as well as in the cup).

In recent decades, the bishops have determined that the misunderstanding has been corrected, and the cup is now offered to all. Bishops may continue to withhold the cup during flu season for obvious reasons.

Three other points: first, Jesus commanded the Eleven at the Last Supper to receive his body and blood under both forms, and since they were consecrated as priests by that command (since they could not consecrate the elements themselves otherwise), it was right for them and their successors to do so. Second, the laity was NOT commanded to receive both by Christ (since laity were not present at that first Eucharist), and third, the Church has been given ALL authority on earth to bind and loose under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

Lay persons accept and obey Jesus’s command to “do this”, but we do so within the guidelines laid down by the Church.
 
You are about the 3rd person that has assumed my question has been answered
I don’t claim to speak for Nacho45, but fwiw I don’t see where he/she made such an assumption. 🙂 However, let me quote my question to you in case you forgot it:
Well consider: suppose I start a new denomination and call it “the Roman Catholic Church”. Would that create a problem for your faith?
 
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