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spina1953
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It seems that the Holy Spirit is guiding you and you have been listening!
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Gicutzu
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Not only for the secular world, but also for Protestants and, yes, even for the Orthodox whom Catholics consider brothers and sisters.
The Catholic Church is called the Antichrist, the Whore of Babylon, and so on.
“If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.” (John 15:19)
Draw your own conclusions.
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RyanBlack
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Some Protestants, and some Orthodox, just as there are some Catholics who consider Protestants and the Orthodox to be the enemy.
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dzheremi
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Gee, yeah…nothing says humility like thinking yourselves the preoccupation of millions of people who don’t happen to share your ecclesiological and hermeneutic viewpoints. 
I hate to break it to everybody here who entertains fantasies of worshiping in catacombs because the world is just so against you, but Protestants (well, certain Protestants) call your church “the whore of Babylon” and all kinds of other nasty stuff because they came from you. You’re what they’re protesting in the first place, and they mostly don’t know any other form of Christianity (hence they use the same tired arguments against Orthodoxy as they do against Catholicism, because to them Orthodox are just strange Catholics). It’s a matter of ignorance on many levels, but the historical ignorance is fed by your own church’s interpretation of history that makes you guys the only game in town. In other words: They look at things through your viewpoint because they inherited their entire way of being Christian and of thinking about what Christianity is from you. You made them, and they’re rebelling against you like the sullen teenagers that they are. (In places where Eastern Orthodoxy reigned like Russia, they had their own quasi-Protestant movements that therefore defined themselves in opposition to Eastern Orthodoxy, like the Molokans and Dukhobors. This type of movement is rarer in Orthodox countries, though, since the western Protestant and Catholic churches are generally already there for whoever doesn’t want to live an Orthodox life.)
I hate to break it to everybody here who entertains fantasies of worshiping in catacombs because the world is just so against you, but Protestants (well, certain Protestants) call your church “the whore of Babylon” and all kinds of other nasty stuff because they came from you. You’re what they’re protesting in the first place, and they mostly don’t know any other form of Christianity (hence they use the same tired arguments against Orthodoxy as they do against Catholicism, because to them Orthodox are just strange Catholics). It’s a matter of ignorance on many levels, but the historical ignorance is fed by your own church’s interpretation of history that makes you guys the only game in town. In other words: They look at things through your viewpoint because they inherited their entire way of being Christian and of thinking about what Christianity is from you. You made them, and they’re rebelling against you like the sullen teenagers that they are. (In places where Eastern Orthodoxy reigned like Russia, they had their own quasi-Protestant movements that therefore defined themselves in opposition to Eastern Orthodoxy, like the Molokans and Dukhobors. This type of movement is rarer in Orthodox countries, though, since the western Protestant and Catholic churches are generally already there for whoever doesn’t want to live an Orthodox life.)
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Gicutzu
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Of course it’s not all of them, just like it’s not the entire “secular” world, I was just building upon Venicejazz’s argument.
I’m not Catholic (yet), so I get to be less than humble when talking about the Church
And Catholics obviously don’t worship in catacombs (and I don’t think anyone fantasizes about that either), but just because they happen to be the largest Christian Church and they can worship freely (in most places) doesn’t mean they aren’t hated by a lot of people.
But, non praevalebunt, and this will be my last intervention in this thread. I don’t want anyone to think I have something against the Orthodox, 99% of my friends are Orthodox, I just think that from a theological point of view Catholicism makes more sense (at least to me). And since I accept Church teachings, I also accept that the Orthodox have valid Apostolic Succession and valid Sacraments (which some Orthodox sadly don’t accept when it comes to the Catholic Church).
I wish everyone a Happy Easter, and I will probably be watching the Orthodox Easter midnight DL on TV, like I do every year
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Venicejazz
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Of course there are many non-Catholics who don’t have anything against the Church. I’m sure there are even atheists out there who like certain aspects. But in general, it seems very few people have a neutral attitude. That’s just my experience.
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Peter_J
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I’ve commented elsewhere that I don’t encourage those who are Orthodox to switch to Catholicism (see also the Balamand quote in my signature); but given your situation I haven’t no reluctance to encourage to choose Catholicism over Orthodoxy. Having said that, I would nevertheless like to emphasis the fact that hostility “runs both ways” as you said. If you spend some time on CAF you’ll definitely see … and it isn’t just the frontal assaults (so to speak) but also such things as Catholics telling Orthodox If you become Catholic, you won’t be leaving Orthodoxy behind; you’ll just be leaving schism behind. etc etc.
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Venicejazz
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Thanks Peter J. I am sure both sides give as well as they get.
By the way, I live in New England too and would love to attend an Eastern Rite Mass sometime. Any recommendations?
By the way, I live in New England too and would love to attend an Eastern Rite Mass sometime. Any recommendations?
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Peter_J
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Well, it depends what part of NE you live in, naturally, but there’s a good chance that a Greek Catholic or Oriental Catholic parish is within driving distance. The byzcath website has a nice directory of them.
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Nacho45
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This is something I was extremely shocked to find, but it is there in abundance. The longer you are in Orthodoxy, the more of it you see. What is worse is the fact it isn’t even sugar coated. It’s just there and pretended not to exist. There is no need to go into a lot of details here, but knowing it exists and at the depth it exists is what is important. Of course, not every Orthodox Christian feels this way, but I have found far too many who do and their inexcusable responses impede any meaningful dialog. I find solace at the awareness their reactions are not exclusive to Catholicism as I have also witnessed these actions against each other within their own faith (jurisdiction dependent). Of course, this happens within the Catholic Church as well, but I have not seen it at the same degree.
Please understand this post is not to take a jab at Orthodoxy. There is much to appreciate within the Orthodox faith. My post is simply to elaborate and explain my personal experiences regarding the above bolded statement. I have no desire to debate the differences between Orthodoxy and Catholicism. This is specifically regarding people and their behavior. For me, it is like finding one of the most beautiful cathedrals in the world and walking inside to find a riot taking place among the parishioners who only stop long enough to fight you and then continue their brawl. I realize my experience is not shared by everyone, but it is after all, my experience.
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Nacho45
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I have no idea what you are talking about (trial?), but I appreciate your interest.So if understand you correctly, some posters here (such as myself) have basically been put on trial and found wanting? It will be interesting if adf417 disagrees with that.
The problem is, you are replying to a dialog between me and another poster in which I was attempting to clarify my position to dissolve an apparent misunderstanding of my intent on that posters part. There really is nothing more to it than this.
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FabiusMaximus
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I’m not sure if you’re aware of an historian by the name of Tom Woods. He is generally known for his work on American history and economics, but he also wrote a book called How the Catholic Church Built Western Civilization and conducted a similarly-named series on EWTN. The only reason why I mention this is because in the end of the series, he concluded on a personal note, commenting on his struggles while he was contemplating converting from Lutheranism to Catholicism. He said at a certain point “Here was the Church, in all its glory and its good fruits, two thousand years, staring me right in the face. I just suddenly felt stupid.”
Your last comment about the lighthouse reminded me of it.
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Gicutzu
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I know I said I wouldn’t post in this thread anymore, but here’s a case study to consider:
So, to the OP, ask yourself which of the Churches acted more like the true Church of Christ.
- The Communists come to power in Romania
- The Romanian Church United with Rome (Greek-Catholic) is outlawed, most priests and bishops are imprisoned
- The Roman Catholic Church is officially still legal, but a lot of priests and bishops are imprisoned nonetheless (Venerable Bishop Anton Durcovici - to be beatified on May 17th - succumbed to the cold and to hunger in prison because he didn’t want to give up his ties to Rome)
So, to the OP, ask yourself which of the Churches acted more like the true Church of Christ.
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Venicejazz
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Thanks Fabius. I’ll check it out.
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Peter_J
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Hi Gicutzu. I probably haven’t read every single one of your posts on this forum, but I have certainly read a lot of them and hence am well acquainted with your view of Orthodoxy. I can only hope that, prior to becoming Catholic, you will become aware of the positive view that Catholics have of Orthodoxy (and possibly adopt such a view yourself).
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Gicutzu
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If only the Orthodox would have the same kind of view of Catholicism…
As for myself, I don’t have a negative view of Orthodoxy, especially when compared to Protestantism. I respect the Orthodox and, as I said, 99% of my friends are Orthodox (and I discussed these issues with some of them as well), but when compared to Catholics I think they come up short and I keep thinking of examples which show this. OP asked for arguments for or against the Churches, and I provided some.
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prodromos
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I don’t believe this is an accurate depiction of the Orthodox Church in Romania because there were many Orthodox martyrs in Romania plus they used to build their churches out of wood because they could rebuild them quickly after the Communists burnt them down, which was not an infrequent event.
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Gicutzu
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The clergy, especially the hierarchs, did very little to oppose the Communists who were tearing down churches.
As for the martyrs, the Orthodox priests who died in Communist prisons were mostly former members of the Iron Guard (a fascist, anti-semitic organization), which is why most of them were imprisoned in the first place and which is why the Romanian Orthodox Church does not want to canonize them.
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prodromos
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As I’ve already mentioned, they simply rebuilt them.
You are making some pretty bold claims. What are your sources?
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Venicejazz
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Well, I guess there is some hostility TOWARD the Orthodox as well.
For the record, I basically had two things in mind when I said that the Orthodox attitude toward Catholicism was important in my decision to enter the Church.
First, I was thinking of writers like Lossky, who seem to create somewhat inaccurate distortions of Catholic teaching in order to distinguish their faith from the West. I say this as someone whose interest in Christianity was largely sparked by reading Lossky.
Second, the attitude, which you see sometimes on the internet, that the Catholic church is almost heretical in its teachings, to the point that communion with Rome would disqualify someone from (small o) orthodoxy.
In contrast, when I heard Catholics talk about Orthodoxy, it was usually something like “what wonderful liturgy they have.”
I certainly didn’t mean to set off a big quarrel about who hates whom more.
For the record, I basically had two things in mind when I said that the Orthodox attitude toward Catholicism was important in my decision to enter the Church.
First, I was thinking of writers like Lossky, who seem to create somewhat inaccurate distortions of Catholic teaching in order to distinguish their faith from the West. I say this as someone whose interest in Christianity was largely sparked by reading Lossky.
Second, the attitude, which you see sometimes on the internet, that the Catholic church is almost heretical in its teachings, to the point that communion with Rome would disqualify someone from (small o) orthodoxy.
In contrast, when I heard Catholics talk about Orthodoxy, it was usually something like “what wonderful liturgy they have.”
I certainly didn’t mean to set off a big quarrel about who hates whom more.
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