Catholic or Orthodox

[Paul_Edwards]

Which Church does not have unity among the bishops themselves? Which Church does not have visible unity? With which Church can it not be known who is a member of that Church?

I named no names

But the Orthodox church considers all Bishops to be equal while the Catholic Church also has a Supreme Bishop among them.

The Pope is the visible unity in the Catholic Church, which teaches: “The Roman Pontiff, as the successor of Peter, is the perpetual and visible principle and foundation of unity of both the bishops and of the faithful.”
LUMEN GENTIUM, 23

It seems like there is no visible unity therefore in the Orthodox church and it certainly seems like there is no visible unity among the Bishops.

But I did not say “orthodox church” in my sentence because I could be wrong and I do not want to bear false witness

 

[Erethorn]

I find that Americans (maybe Western Europeans too) seem to have an idealized view of the Orthodox Church. I live in an “Orthodox country” and the stories of priests coming to DL drunk and performing “express” weddings just to get more money (and in general asking for money for every little thing) are overwhelming. I also dislike the fanaticism of a lot of Orthodox priests and monks, which is often violently xenophobic and anti-Catholic despite the charity demonstrated by Catholics toward the Orthodox. I don’t even want to get started on how the Greek Catholic church was treated by the Orthodox, since these problems are well known.

Unfortunately, I have to corroborate all those points made by Gicutzu. I will not speak for the orthodox in other central European countries, but as far as Romania is concerned, Orthodoxy - in the field - seems to be pretty far indeed from the idealized image held by westerners.

A mixture of xenophobia and superstition would best describe what orthodoxy really is for most orthodox believers in my country.

 

[Nine_Two]

I named no names

But the Orthodox church considers all Bishops to be equal while the Catholic Church also has a Supreme Bishop among them.

The Pope is the visible unity in the Catholic Church, which teaches: “The Roman Pontiff, as the successor of Peter, is the perpetual and visible principle and foundation of unity of both the bishops and of the faithful.”
LUMEN GENTIUM, 23

It seems like there is no visible unity therefore in the Orthodox church and it certainly seems like there is no visible unity among the Bishops.

But I did not say “orthodox church” in my sentence because I could be wrong and I do not want to bear false witness

You are wrong, unity is through the Holy Synods, made visible through the Patriarchs and their dyptychs.

Unity does not require submission to a single office.

 

[Paul_Edwards]

You are wrong, unity is through the Holy Synods, made visible through the Patriarchs and their dyptychs.

Unity does not require submission to a single office.

The key word is S at the end of partriach and dyptych, might aswell say Bishops. And your church considers all Bishops to be equal so the partriach and dyptych thing doesn’t seem like unity.

And if there is many synods in the church at the same time that’s not unity.

You said unity does not require submission to a single office, but that is if your not looking for universal unity

 

[joe371]

You are wrong, unity is through the Holy Synods, made visible through the Patriarchs and their dyptychs.

Unity does not require submission to a single office.

Saying - “you are wrong” - doesn’t make it so; it’s merely your opinion. I could say that you are wrong about the Petrine office, but that doesn’t make it so; it’s merely my opinion. Out of curiosity: can you show me, in church history, any one person or Holy Synod that subscribed to the notion that someone other than Peter was given the keys of Jesus’ kingdom? Scripture is clear on the matter.

 

[Paul_Edwards]

Saying - “you are wrong” - doesn’t make it so; it’s merely your opinion. I could say that you are wrong about the Petrine office, but that doesn’t make it so; it’s merely my opinion. Out of curiosity: can you show me, in church history, any one person or Holy Synod that subscribed to the notion that someone other than Peter was given the keys of Jesus’ kingdom? Scripture is clear on the matter.

You are right

 

[RyanBlack]

I named no names

But the Orthodox church considers all Bishops to be equal while the Catholic Church also has a Supreme Bishop among them.

The Pope is the visible unity in the Catholic Church, which teaches: “The Roman Pontiff, as the successor of Peter, is the perpetual and visible principle and foundation of unity of both the bishops and of the faithful.”
LUMEN GENTIUM, 23

It seems like there is no visible unity therefore in the Orthodox church and it certainly seems like there is no visible unity among the Bishops.

But I did not say “orthodox church” in my sentence because I could be wrong and I do not want to bear false witness

The unity among the Orthodox is not identical to that of the Catholic Church in that it does not have one particular bishop as the principle of unity. The Orthodox are unified by a shared faith and through their bishops being in communion with each other. The lack of one single bishop as the principle of unity–to my way of thinking, as well as to how the Orthodox themselves understand unity–does not equate with lack of unity.

 

[joe371]

You are right

 

[joe371]

I named no names

But the Orthodox church considers all Bishops to be equal while the Catholic Church also has a Supreme Bishop among them.

The Pope is the visible unity in the Catholic Church, which teaches: “The Roman Pontiff, as the successor of Peter, is the perpetual and visible principle and foundation of unity of both the bishops and of the faithful.”
LUMEN GENTIUM, 23

It seems like there is no visible unity therefore in the Orthodox church and it certainly seems like there is no visible unity among the Bishops.

But I did not say “orthodox church” in my sentence because I could be wrong and I do not want to bear false witness

Hey Paul. One thing I have noticed, even here at CAF, is the idea that Christians belonging to the Catholic Church tend to view the Eastern Orthodox Church in a very sympathetic and conciliatory manner, recognizing that they too possess valid sacraments, with apostolic succession, and all other manner of elements that certainly allow them to be identified as the church founded by Jesus, as opposed to being merely an ecclesial community founded by someone other than Jesus. However, (based on comments here at CAF, by Eastern Orthodox Christians) the Eastern Orthodox Christians seem to view the Catholic Church much in the same way that Protestants might, in terms of not recognizing the Catholic Church as the church founded by Jesus. Just an observation, and I am sure not all EO Christians feel this way.

 

[prodromos]

Saying - “you are wrong” - doesn’t make it so; it’s merely your opinion. I could say that you are wrong about the Petrine office, but that doesn’t make it so; it’s merely my opinion. Out of curiosity: can you show me, in church history, any one person or Holy Synod that subscribed to the notion that someone other than Peter was given the keys of Jesus’ kingdom? Scripture is clear on the matter.

St John Chrysostom explicitly states that the apostle John holds the keys.

m.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf114.iv.iii.html
For the son of thunder, the beloved of Christ, the pillar of the Churches throughout the world,

who holds the keys of heaven, who drank the cup of Christ, and was baptized with His baptism,

who lay upon his Master’s bosom with much confidence,

this man comes forward to us now;

not as an actor of a play, not hiding his head with a mask…,

nor mounting a platform, nor striking the stage with his foot, nor dressed out with apparel of gold, but he enters wearing a robe of inconceivable beauty.

 

[Paul_Edwards]

The unity among the Orthodox is not identical to that of the Catholic Church in that it does not have one particular bishop as the principle of unity. The Orthodox are unified by a shared faith and through their bishops being in communion with each other. The lack of one single bishop as the principle of unity–to my way of thinking, as well as to how the Orthodox themselves understand unity–does not equate with lack of unity.

It’s lack of unity by what we mean by unity but not by what you mean by unity

 

[Paul_Edwards]

Hey Paul. One thing I have noticed, even here at CAF, is the idea that Christians belonging to the Catholic Church tend to view the Eastern Orthodox Church in a very sympathetic and conciliatory manner, recognizing that they too possess valid sacraments, with apostolic succession, and all other manner of elements that certainly allow them to be identified as the church founded by Jesus, as opposed to being merely an ecclesial community founded by someone other than Jesus. However, (based on comments here at CAF, by Eastern Orthodox Christians) the Eastern Orthodox Christians seem to view the Catholic Church much in the same way that Protestants might, in terms of not recognizing the Catholic Church as the church founded by Jesus. Just an observation, and I am sure not all EO Christians feel this way.

 

[Peter_J]

I agree with what Ryan said, namely:

The unity among the Orthodox is not identical to that of the Catholic Church in that it does not have one particular bishop as the principle of unity. The Orthodox are unified by a shared faith and through their bishops being in communion with each other. The lack of one single bishop as the principle of unity–to my way of thinking, as well as to how the Orthodox themselves understand unity–does not equate with lack of unity.

But it seems to me as though those of you who don’t want to see this truth, don’t. I guess I shouldn’t keep addressing the matter, as I don’t want to further enable you guys in your anti-Orthodox posts.

 

[joe371]

I agree with what Ryan said, namely:

But it seems to me as though those of you who don’t want to see this truth, don’t. I guess I shouldn’t keep addressing the matter, as I don’t want to further enable you guys in your anti-Orthodox posts.

Post 155 is an example of being anti something. I do not see any Catholics being anti-Orthodox. You and I (all Catholics) believe that the Orthodox Churches have apostolic pedigree with valid sacraments. I wish it was reciprocated.

 

[Nine_Two]

Saying - “you are wrong” - doesn’t make it so; it’s merely your opinion. I could say that you are wrong about the Petrine office, but that doesn’t make it so; it’s merely my opinion. Out of curiosity: can you show me, in church history, any one person or Holy Synod that subscribed to the notion that someone other than Peter was given the keys of Jesus’ kingdom? Scripture is clear on the matter.

I’m not sure you were actually following the conversation we were having (your statement that it is proof of being “anti” something seems to make that clearer).

He is wrong that we don’t have a visible sign of unity. The dyptychs are a visible sign of unity.

It bothers me that you are looking for ways to interpret my statement as “anti-Catholic”. Sadly it doesn’t surprise me.

 

[Nine_Two]

The unity among the Orthodox is not identical to that of the Catholic Church in that it does not have one particular bishop as the principle of unity. The Orthodox are unified by a shared faith and through their bishops being in communion with each other. The lack of one single bishop as the principle of unity–to my way of thinking, as well as to how the Orthodox themselves understand unity–does not equate with lack of unity.

But thinking this way is apparently anti-Catholicism.

 

[Nine_Two]

It’s lack of unity by what we mean by unity but not by what you mean by unity

I’m going to be accused of anti-Catholicism again for this, but that isn’t the sort of unity we want. It is a type of unity without precedent in our church.

 

[Nine_Two]

Post 155 is an example of being anti something. I do not see any Catholics being anti-Orthodox. You and I (all Catholics) believe that the Orthodox Churches have apostolic pedigree with valid sacraments. I wish it was reciprocated.

Insulting us because we don’t see things your way is very anti-Orthodox.

 

[Paul_Edwards]

I’m going to be accused of anti-Catholicism again for this, but that isn’t the sort of unity we want. It is a type of unity without precedent in our church.

That’s not anti-catholicicm just non-catholicicm

 

[Paul_Edwards]

The dyptychs are a visible sign of unity.

The key word is S at the end of “dyptych”, if there is more than one at the same time then it doesn’t seem like unity