Catholic or Orthodox

[Peter_J]

I NEVER said they are “unimportant as a sign of unity”, there is no doubt that they are “more” unity than “less”. But they are not complete universal unity.

All Bishops are important of unity.

I’m sick of people thinking I mean these positions are un-unity

I think a better question is, why are we having this discussion? Are we really so bereft of better things to do with our time?

But, to be fair, please do remember that you were the one who said this:

The key word is S at the end of “dyptych”, if there is more than one at the same time then it doesn’t seem like unity

Much of the awful discussion that followed was a matter of other posters not being able to resist responding to that.

 

[Paul_Edwards]

Of course they are a sign of universal unity. In a patriarchal Divine Liturgy, the patriarch commemorates all the other patriarchs. Furthermore, in every Divine Liturgy, the people pray for the entire Church–bishops, priest, deacons, monastics, and laity.

It is unity in the individual parts that them ones are over, not universally. And I am talking of heirarchal rather than liturgical unity. Universal unity by a partriach would mean a partriach with universal power.

I don’t know how more “universal” you can get.

You do

 

[Paul_Edwards]

I think a better question is, why are we having this discussion? Are we really so bereft of better things to do with our time?

But, to be fair, please do remember that you were the one who said this:

Much of the awful discussion that followed was a matter of other posters not being able to resist responding to that.

“Doesn’t seem like unity” is not “un-unity” or “lesser unity” rather than “more”. I mean it is not universal unity

 

[RyanBlack]

It is unity in the individual parts that them ones are over, not universally. And I am talking of heirarchal rather than liturgical unity. Universal unity by a partriach would mean a partriach with universal power.

It is not just liturgical unity, it is hierarchical unity. The hierarchs of the Orthodox Church are unified in shared faith, shared Eucharist, and through the mutual commemorations.

 

[Paul_Edwards]

It is not just liturgical unity, it is hierarchical unity. The hierarchs of the Orthodox Church are unified in shared faith, shared Eucharist, and through the mutual commemorations.

Which hierarch unites the hierarchs?

That’s what I mean by hierarchical unity

 

[Peter_J]

Originally Posted by Peter J
I think a better question is, why are we having this discussion? Are we really so bereft of better things to do with our time?

Well, for what it’s worth, I agree with you on something: namely, there is no universal unity. There really wasn’t even in the days of the “Undivided Church”. (I’m not sure what Ryan means, but I guess he’s using the terms differently than I would.)

But that aside, the fact remains that this conversation is garbage. (To extend the analogy a little, I may not be able to stop people from littering; but if I then go and eat the garbage that people drop in the street, I can’t blame anyone but myself for that.)

 

[Paul_Edwards]

Well, for what it’s worth, I agree with you on something: namely, there is no universal unity.

You better

 

[Paul_Edwards]

PETER J

You are Peter and upon this rock I will build my Church

 

[RyanBlack]

Well, for what it’s worth, I agree with you on something: namely, there is no universal unity. There really wasn’t even in the days of the “Undivided Church”. (I’m not sure what Ryan means, but I guess he’s using the terms differently than I would.)

Well, there is no such thing as universal unity. Instead, we have the communion of Catholic Churches, the Assyrian Church of the East, the Ancient Church of the East, the communion of Oriental Orthodox Churches, the communion of Eastern Orthodox Churches, and myriads of Protestant groups. I was speaking of universal unity in the sense of universal unity among the Eastern Orthodox, or universal unity among the Oriental Orthodox, or among the Catholic Churches.

 

[RyanBlack]

Which hierarch unites the hierarchs?

That’s what I mean by hierarchical unity

For the Orthodox, no single hierarch unites all the hierarchs. All of them together serve as a principle of unity by virtue of shared eucharistic communion and a shared faith. An individual member of the Orthodox is in communion with other Orthodox through being in communion with his or her bishop.

 

[Peter_J]

Well, there is no such thing as universal unity. Instead, we have the communion of Catholic Churches, the Assyrian Church of the East, the Ancient Church of the East, the communion of Oriental Orthodox Churches, the communion of Eastern Orthodox Churches, and myriads of Protestant groups.

Exactly.

I was speaking of universal unity in the sense of universal unity among the Eastern Orthodox, or universal unity among the Oriental Orthodox, or among the Catholic Churches.

Alright. Still, that seems a bit contrived to me, personally. I think it makes more sense to say that we don’t have universal unity (and probably never will, at least not entirely).

Anyhow, I guess I’m content to let Paul Edwards believe whatever he believes … or, at least, content in the sense that I prefer it to consuming garbage (to reuse my earlier metaphor).

 

[Paul_Edwards]

For the Orthodox, no single hierarch unites all the hierarchs. All of them together serve as a principle of unity by virtue of shared eucharistic communion and a shared faith. An individual member of the Orthodox is in communion with other Orthodox through being in communion with his or her bishop.

So, in accordance with what I am talking about, the Orthodox Church does not have visible unity

 

[RyanBlack]

Exactly.

Alright. Still, that seems a bit contrived to me, personally. I think it makes more sense to say that we don’t have universal unity (and probably never will, at least not entirely).

I wasn’t the one who originally brought it up. It was brought up by another poster who kept claiming that the communion among Orthodox patriarchs is not universal unity, but who also implied that the Catholic Church, by virtue of the Pope as the single principle of unity, does have universal unity.

 

[RyanBlack]

So, in accordance with what I am talking about, the Orthodox Church does not have visible unity

If you insist that, by definition, visible unity is only possible when there is one particular person who is the principle of unity, then no, the Orthodox Church does not have visible unity. I reject that definition.

Orthodox bishops do at times attend the same Divine Liturgies together, and at such Divine Liturgies, share communion. That is visible unity. Orthodox patriarch, even when not present together, commemorate each other at Divine Liturgy. That is a real, tangible sign of unity.

 

[Paul_Edwards]

If you insist that, by definition, visible unity is only possible when there is one particular person who is the principle of unity, then no, the Orthodox Church does not have visible unity. I reject that definition.

Oh, so we agree with each other really about the unity of the Orthodox Church, just not about the meaning of the word unity

 

[Paul_Edwards]

I think when Jesus said “I pray they may be one” that he meant what I mean by unity and that, that was his intention for his Church and then he fulfilled this in John 21:15-17

Obviously you disagree with me on that

 

[RyanBlack]

Oh, so we agree with each other really about the unity of the Orthodox Church, just not about the meaning of the word unity

I don’t think I agree with you at all, because you are making the argument that the Catholic Church has unity, while the unity of the Orthodox is somehow less than that of the Catholic Church. I do not agree with that.

 

[Paul_Edwards]

If one Bishop randomly decides to separate from the others is he no longer part of the church or are they no longer part of the Church in the Orthodox Church?

 

[Paul_Edwards]

I don’t think I agree with you at all, because you are making the argument that the Catholic Church has unity, while the unity of the Orthodox is somehow less than that of the Catholic Church. I do not agree with that.

We have unity in different senses, you probably agree with that

 

[RyanBlack]

We have unity in different senses, you probably agree with that

Yes, I do agree with that.