Catholic Orthodox baptism

[orthodoxcanuck]

My husband is Roman Catholic and I am Macedonian Orthodox. We were married in Cuba in a civil ceremony. We are not really practising church goers(Christmas and Easter only) but would like to have our son baptized ideally in both churches. We plan on rasing our kid to respect both denominations and if he chooses one over the other later on in life we will be ok with that decision too.

What are the stipulations for baptizing a child in the Catholic church in our situation? Do the godparents have to be both Catholics? Would they object if the child was also baptized in a Macedonian Orthodox Church.

I have been calling around(we are in Canada) different catholic churches and I have been getting different answers(some object that we are not married in a church, some tell me I have to convert, some tell me we have to attend church for x number of time etc)

Thanks

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

My husband is Roman Catholic and I am Macedonian Orthodox. We were married in Cuba in a civil ceremony. We are not really practising church goers(Christmas and Easter only) but would like to have our son baptized ideally in both churches. We plan on rasing our kid to respect both denominations and if he chooses one over the other later on in life we will be ok with that decision too.

What are the stipulations for baptizing a child in the Catholic church in our situation? Do the godparents have to be both Catholics? Would they object if the child was also baptized in a Macedonian Orthodox Church.

I have been calling around(we are in Canada) different catholic churches and I have been getting different answers(some object that we are not married in a church, some tell me I have to convert, some tell me we have to attend church for x number of time etc)

Thanks

It would be your husbands obligation to have the child Baptized in the Catholic Faith and raise the child in the Catholic Faith. Once Baptized your Baptized, there is no two Baptisms.

 

[bacon_man]

It’s only nessisary to be baptized once, so that wouldnt make sense, you should do it in a Catholic church because your husband has an obligation to raise his kids Catholic, also, it would be a good idea to your marrige validated, because without valid marrage, you’d essentially be living in sin. And you should start attending Mass also, maybe you and your husband can comprimise by attenting Divine Liturgy at a Macedonian Catholic Church or whatever Eastern Rite Church corresponds to your particular Church, as not attending An approved Mass or Divine Liturgy on Sundays and the required Holy Days is a mortal sin and you shouldnt receive communion until you make a good confession, including that, if not for your sake, than for your husbands.

 

[orthodoxcanuck]

Our marriage was validated by the Canadian government(the stamp from the Canadian embassy in Havana is the validation) so I know my marriage is valid. And what about my obligation to also teach my child of my Orthodox religion? So much for respect and tolerance among religions. The other thing that both of us are not comfortable is the fact that if one of our godparents is not Catholic the church would not put that person’s name on the certificate. I don’t care what religion is but that is totally disrespectful.

 

[bacon_man]

Our marriage was validated by the Canadian government(the stamp from the Canadian embassy in Havana is the validation) so I know my marriage is valid. And what about my obligation to also teach my child of my Orthodox religion? So much for respect and tolerance among religions. The other thing that both of us are not comfortable is the fact that if one of our godparents is not Catholic the church would not put that person’s name on the certificate. I don’t care what religion is but that is totally disrespectful.

I mean a sacramental marriage, a civil marriage is not sacramental, marriage is a sacrament, or as the Orthodox call them, holy mysteries.

 

[mardukm]

From what I know about the Eastern Orthodox, if you marry outside the Church (i.e., in a civil ceremony), you are automatically excommunicated. In the Catholic Church, you are not excommunicated - we just don’t recognize the marriage. I hope brother Hesychios reads this. He can give you a better answer.

For sure, however, I do know that your marriage is not recognized as valid by either the Eastern Orthodox Church or the Catholic Church, regardless of whether the SECULAR authority says it is valid. The secular authority has no say in matters involving the Church or her Sacraments.

Since you are a member of what the Catholic Church calls a “sister Church,” one of the godparents need not be Catholic in your case. The EO Church is more strict and would not permit a Catholic godparent (but it might depend on the local bishop).

I am not sure what your marriage status has to do with baptizing your child. I can see the requirement as far as a proper environment for your child (I mean, if you want to raise your child as a Christian, it would not be good to lie to your child that you are married when you are not), but not as regards the baptism per se.

Blessings

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

Our marriage was validated by the Canadian government(the stamp from the Canadian embassy in Havana is the validation) so I know my marriage is valid. And what about my obligation to also teach my child of my Orthodox religion? So much for respect and tolerance among religions. The other thing that both of us are not comfortable is the fact that if one of our godparents is not Catholic the church would not put that person’s name on the certificate. I don’t care what religion is but that is totally disrespectful.

Everyone means recognized as a Sacrament by the Catholic Church, not legalized by a government. The Children are to be Baptized and raised in the Faith of the father. Only Godparents who meet the requirements of Canon Law are accepted as Godparents, others who are Baptized Christians can be Christian Witnesses to the Baptism.

 

[1ke]

It seems you nor your spouse knows very much about your own religion.

I suggest you sit down with a priest from the Catholic Church, the Orthodox Church, or ideally both and discuss what it will take to validate your marriage in both Churches and also receive instruction on baptism.

When you baptize your child you are making a promise to raise them in the Faith (either as Catholics or as Orthodox depending upon which Church you baptize them in). That means you are promising to take them to church weekly, instruct them in the faith, show them how to live the faith by example, ensure they receive the sacraments, etc. It does not mean baptizing them and then maybe going to church on Christmas or Easter. These are serious promises you make before God.

The Sacrament of Baptism can only be received once. There’s no such thing as baptizing the child in “both” or raising the child as “both.” You have a lot to learn.

Start with you and your spouse getting your own spiritual household in order by correcting your marriage situation, going to Confession, and returning to the practice of your faith. If you don’t intend to do these things, can you explain why you want to have your chidl baptized?

 

[1ke]

The other thing that both of us are not comfortable is the fact that if one of our godparents is not Catholic the church would not put that person’s name on the certificate.

Of course only a Catholic can be a sponsor at a Catholic baptism. That is because the Catholic is *sponsoring *the child. What does that mean? They are standing witness that vouch for the chidl and will assist in teaching the child the Catholic faith. A non-Catholic cannot do this. A non-Catholic can *witness *the baptism, they cannot be a *sponsor *of the child being baptized.

It seems you are overly interested in the certificate and such, and not much interested in the actual raising of your child in the faith.

So, why do you want your child baptized?

 

[Claire_from_DE]

You are legally married and the Canadian government recognizes this marriage. You didn’t receive the sacrament of Matrimony so you don’t have a ‘valid’ or sacramental marriage.

Even if you are not ‘validly’ married in the Catholic church, the priest is permitted to baptize your child if there is a ‘founded hope’ that he will be brought up as a Catholic.

According to the Catholic and the Orthodox churches, the child can only be baptized one time.

If a person is baptized in the Catholic church, he has a Catholic sponsor and would be raised Catholic. In an Orthodox church he would need an Orthodox sponsor and would be raised Orthodox.

On a Catholic baptismal record, they only need the name of the Catholic sponsor(s).
You can have a second godparent who isn’t Catholic but the Catholic record only needs the name of the Catholic sponsor.

You do not have to convert in order for your child to be baptized Catholic but you do have to agree to raise him as a Catholic. Of course, you would raise him to respect your faith too.

I suggest you post your question on the Eastern Catholicism Forum. Maybe someone there can tell you which Eastern Catholic church celebrates Divine Liturgy using the same rite as the Macedonian Orthodox church. You both could begin to attend Divine Liturgy there. It is Catholic but you might feel more at home there. However, I think but I’m not sure, that the child is usually baptized in the rite of the child’s father.

If you don’t plan to practice your faith, you should hold off on baptizing your child. Either way you won’t be able to make all the grandparents happy. Like the other posters I have to ask why you want to baptize your child.

 

[echo2274]

You wouldn’t be allowed to baptize your child in an Orthodox or Catholic Church. I’m Greek Orthodox, and just like the Catholic Church, you have to be married in an Orthodox or Catholic Church to be able to have your child baptized in that church. You are legally married, but your marriage isn’t recognized by the church. Some couples have a double ceremony at times. They get married in the church, and then have their child baptized.

 

[Phemie]

You wouldn’t be allowed to baptize your child in an Orthodox or Catholic Church. I’m Greek Orthodox, and just like the Catholic Church, you have to be married in an Orthodox or Catholic Church to be able to have your child baptized in that church.

That may be true of the Orthodox Church but it’s certainly not true of the Catholic Church. Most of the children who were baptized in our parish this year were children of unwed parents. But it is true that some pastors will refuse to baptize them and some pastors will insist on parents’ weekly Sunday attendance at Mass for a specific period before they will baptize the children.

 

[AJV]

First off, please don’t be turned away by the different tones you get on the internet. Not everyone is the same, and especially over the internet, people can sound harsher than they really mean, because it is a sensitive (and important) issue.

I understand that it seems disrespectful but there is a certain reason why the Church does this. It’s not because the people aren’t good people, or decent enough, or anything like that. It has to do with the way the Church sees the role of the godparent, which is perhaps different from the secular or legal ramifications that you may be familiar with.

The Church views baptism as giving grace to a person but it is only the first step - the person must grow in the life of grace. And like any other process, the person needs role models - for a child, the first is obviously the parents, but after the parents, it is the godparents. Role models not simply in a secular way, but primarily in a spiritual way. It is for this reason that the Church asks that one person be Catholic. And ideally (although often people don’t do this and opt for relatives) it should be someone you know who is deeply committed to practicing the Catholic faith - not even someone who just perfunctorily goes to church on Sundays and forgets about God for the other 6 days.

As many other posters have pointed out, the Church takes baptism very seriously. It’s not just about be named, or a type of cultural custom (not to imply that you necessarily understand it in those ways). As any gift, God’s grace given in baptism has to be nurtured and taken care of.

I mean, it’s like if you gave your teenage child the keys to a fancy house. You’d probably expect him/her to take care of it, but if he/she doesn’t, and throws huge parties every second day, the whole place will go to ruin. Or, to use another analogy: a relationship. After you meet someone, exchange contact information, you don’t just go home after the first date, and then call back 4 years later saying “Hey, will you marry me?”. You probably spend some time thinking abt the person, talking to the person, etc., etc. Same with baptismal grace (mind you, the analogy does break down, because if you call God after 15 years, he’s always available!) and this happens in different ways.

One is the example - religious especially,for example in praying regularly showing children that talking to God is necessary and important - that the parents give the child at home. Another is attending Mass every week - not simply because its the culture, or X grandparent will be unhappy, or someone told you you’ll go to hell if you don’t - but because we believe that the Mass is a great sign of love left to us by Christ himself, to enter into communion with God and with our neighbours.

It’s for this reason that you have heard of all these requirements. Some churches ask that you attend regularly so that they can know that you are serious about trying to live a life of faith. Others ask for proof of marriage in a church for the same reason. It isn’t that you aren’t doing good moral things without attending church or being married in a church, but if you believe (as the Church does) that our souls are created by God and find their ultimate joy in a relationship with him, then the life of faith is important. It’s kind of like a plant settling for a leaky irrigation system that gives it the trickles of water, when it could be near the banks of a river and have all the water it needs. (yes, yes, I know I go overboard with these analogy things…).

Going to Mass weekly, and getting married in a church is a sign that you understand why the Church asks for these things, and why it says that it is important. If for any chance you don’t know, and you’ve never heard of it before, there are people who will be happy to explain it to you. And of course, Google is your best friend after God and saints.
You can even post questions on this forum - just filter out the more …um… strident replies.

(contd.)

 

[AJV]

Our (i.e. the Catholic) doctrine accepts baptisms done in the Orthodox Churches. The Orthodox Churches do *not *accept our baptisms. (This does not mean that they are nasty or anything, but it has to do with our different theological understandings about how the Church functions).

What this means practically is that if your child is baptized by an Orthodox priest, a Catholic priest will not (and should not) baptism him/her again. Please note that this not not mean that we don’t want to welcome or accept him/her or anythign like that. As I mentioned before, baptism gives God’s grace. If it’s given once, it’s given and that’s that. You can’t give it again because the person already has it, if you see what I mean, . As per Biblical teaching, we hold that Baptism can only be given ONCE, and since we accept the Orthodox baptism, we cannot re-baptize. Obviously, we would prefer that he/she is baptized in a Catholic Church - but if it isn’t, we will not re-baptize.

On the other hand, if you get your child baptized in the Catholic church first, an Orthodox priest will probably baptize him/her again if he agrees ( I’m pretty sure he’ll first have some questions about why he got baptized first in a Catholic Church, raising him Orthodox and the like) because they typically do not recognize our baptisms.

A possible solution, as someone has suggested, that you may consider ,is taking your child to an Eastern Catholic church - specifically one like the Melkites, Ukrainian Catholic, Ruthenian, or similar. They observe similar rites as the Orthodox, but are in communion with the Pope. They will have some different cultural customs given their different countries of origin, but the form of the service will largely be one that you are accustomed to, and nowadays, is also often offered in part or in whole, in English. Your husband will not have to also attend Mass, because attendance at a Divine Liturgy in an Eastern Catholic Church is the same as attending Mass. There are several EC churches in Canada- not sure exactly where you are, but if you feel comfortable disclosing your general location, someone could probably point you to one.

You don’t have to convert to get your child baptized in a Catholic Church - however, your husband would have begin to attend Mass weekly, and so forth. As someone suggested, perhaps he could attend a Divine Liturgy with you on Sunday at an Orthodox church and attend the Saturday evening Mass at a Catholic church. The following booklet might be helpful to you - it covers mixed marriages between Catholic and Orthodox:

usccb.org/seia/Guide_OrthoChristianMarriage.pdf

 

[AJV]

Yikes, just realized that I wrote the big sermon for a post over a year old. …

Can these old threads be locked or something?