Catholic/Orthodox Dialogue Resumes this week

[WetCatechumen]

And St Basil has you pegged.

How so?

 

[sidbrown]

Unfortunately, this post has made me realize that our Churches are far from reunion indeed.

I don’t see a reunion happening for 100 years at the least…If I am alive I will be quite an old man…

The differences appear to be too great unless the RCC changes its mind and relents a bit on a few issues which are stumbling blocks to the Eastern OC.

 

[Alexander_Roman]

Unfortunately, this post has made me realize that our Churches are far from reunion indeed.

I don’t see a reunion happening for 100 years at the least…If I am alive I will be quite an old man…

Actually, I can envision this scenario in the near future:

“Catholic and Orthodox Church leaders meet in international Ecumenical Council to iron out their differences and declare full and formal unity between them.”

“Some members of Catholic Answers Forums and the Byzantine Forum are opposed. . .”

Alex

 

[Ferde_Rombola]

“Catholic and Orthodox Church leaders meet in international Ecumenical Council to iron out their differences and declare full and formal unity between them.”

“Some members of Catholic Answers Forums and the Byzantine Forum are opposed. . .”

I repeat what I have often said: It is the Orthodox laity which is the principle obstacle to unity. I include those on this site. That said, the Orthodox on this site are intelligent, well informed men whose opposition to the Catholic Church isn’t laced with the hatred, bigotry and vitriol I see from others elsewhere in cyberspace. Even bringing them to the table will be like pulling teeth.

 

[JohnVIII]

I repeat what I have often said: It is the Orthodox laity which is the principle obstacle to unity. I include those on this site. That said, the Orthodox on this site are intelligent, well informed men whose opposition to the Catholic Church isn’t laced with the hatred, bigotry and vitriol I see from others elsewhere in cyberspace. Even bringing them to the table will be like pulling teeth.

I feel called to be a spiritual dentist. Any Orthodox out there need some spiritual teeth pulled?

 

[trophybearer]

I feel called to be a spiritual dentist. Any Orthodox out there need some spiritual teeth pulled?

Not unless you want to be swallowing your own “spiritual teeth”. I hate going to the dentist!

 

[prodromos]

I repeat what I have often said: It is the Orthodox laity which is the principle obstacle to unity.

Rubbish. Haven’t you read the official pronouncements by synods of Orthodox bishops regarding the Catholic Church? Has it occurred to you that the number of Orthodox bishops who get involved in meetings like the one described in this thread are but a tiny fraction of the bishops in the Orthodox Church?

 

[Ferde_Rombola]

Rubbish. Haven’t you read the official pronouncements by synods of Orthodox bishops regarding the Catholic Church? Has it occurred to you that the number of Orthodox bishops who get involved in meetings like the one described in this thread are but a tiny fraction of the bishops in the Orthodox Church?

You’re right, but from what I’ve read from many Orthodox is they have the right and the power to remove any bishop who acts contrary to their wishes. It seems logical to assume the bishops you refer to are influenced by and see themselves vulnerable to the laity’s power. I have no personal knowledge of how things go in the Orthodox Churches. Your knowledge of the subject is greater than mine, so mayby you can comment on that.

 

[JohnVIII]

You’re right, but from what I’ve read from many Orthodox is they have the right and the power to remove any bishop who acts contrary to their wishes. It seems logical to assume the bishops you refer to are influenced by and see themselves vulnerable to the laity’s power. I have no personal knowledge of how things go in the Orthodox Churches. Your knowledge of the subject is greater than mine, so mayby you can comment on that.

The “power”? Layman don’t have any power over the bishops. Where have you “read” that? Did St. Maximos the Confessor have “power” over the Patriarch of Constantinople just because he would not commune there? (Although monks are not called “layman”, he was just a monk, not a member of the clergy). That’s all laymen (or monks) have the power to do. Just because the Orthodox have lost respect for the successor to St. Peter that does not mean they disrespect there own bishops. When Rome changes something (like it did an Vatican II) some Catholics leave the communion of Rome too. Then Rome makes more changes to try to win them back – is this the Latin laity exercising power of Rome too? Of course not! There’s no real difference, to say that there is just shows prejudice.

The Orthodox want to be ‘complete’, and they believe that they already are. Jesus told St. Peter to “strengthen the brotheren”, not to tare them down. Just keep educating the world about how the early Church respected Rome and let the Holy Spirit and the holy angles do the rest. I think that there wouldn’t even be Orthodox clergy attending a Catholic/Orthodox dialogue if it were not for the fact that many of them have become educated about the role that Rome played in the early Church; and the knowledge of this alone is enough to make an Orthodox Christian want to at least see if it is possible to re-unite in communion with Rome. And where there is a will there is a way!

:grouphug:

 

[Aramis]

It’s not the laity alone, either, who can remove a bishop they don’t like.

Bishop Nikolai of Alaska was removed by the synod after what amounts to a palace coup by a minority of his priests.

An EO bishop runs a ragged edge… balancing the people and the clergy both… with either one being able to directly petition the synod for his removal.

 

[trophybearer]

The “power”? Layman don’t have any power over the bishops. Where have you “read” that? Did St. Maximos the Confessor have “power” over the Patriarch of Constantinople just because he would not commune there? (Although monks are not called “layman”, he was just a monk, not a member of the clergy). That’s all laymen (or monks) have the power to do. Just because the Orthodox have lost respect for the successor to St. Peter that does not mean they disrespect there own bishops. When Rome changes something (like it did an Vatican II) some Catholics leave the communion of Rome too. Then Rome makes more changes to try to win them back – is this the Latin laity exercising power of Rome too? Of course not! There’s no real difference, to say that there is just shows prejudice.

The Orthodox want to be ‘complete’, and they believe that they already are. Jesus told St. Peter to “strengthen the brotheren”, not to tare them down. Just keep educating the world about how the early Church respected Rome and let the Holy Spirit and the holy angles do the rest. I think that there wouldn’t even be Orthodox clergy attending a Catholic/Orthodox dialogue if it were not for the fact that many of them have become educated about the role that Rome played in the early Church; and the knowledge of this alone is enough to make an Orthodox Christian want to at least see if it is possible to re-unite in communion with Rome. And where there is a will there is a way!

:grouphug:

You’re an “angry” ex-Orthodox, aren’t you? You sometimes remind me of one of those guys or gals who left the RCC and take every opportunity they can find to degrade or speak Ill of their former faith and co-religionists. I sense an awful lot of contempt for the Orthodox Church… would you like to talk about it?

 

[Dee_Dee_King]

i think the longer the orthodox remain obstinate on union with rome the longer they will continued to be chastised by islam and secularism. i don’t think it’s any coincidence that both in the middle east and in russia, the orthodox church has been under constant attack and have by in large are losing to these outside forces.

i don’t take it lightly and think it’s a great scandal that the church is split with most of the blame resting on the orthodox and their pride. sure, we in the west have huge warts, but at least the sacred deposit of faith has remained pure. the orthodox now are legitimizing the contraception of their people–what a shame!

 

[Dee_Dee_King]

Nope the blame rests on us all Orthodox and Catholic

how am i to blame? am i to blame for slavery as well? please, ut unam sint is an open invite to come to an agreement with the orthodox on the role of the papcy. i haven’t seen any reciprocation from the orthodox.

Also the Russian Orthodox Church is actually slowly regaining strength not losing it

russia has some of the highest abortion rates in the world. i would guess that the russian church is in the same boat as the west–a battle against the dictatorship of relativism/secularism.

 

[dcointin]

I think you have to consider the practical undesirability of reunion with Rome as well, which is something that we’ve overlooked so far in this discussion.

Reunion with some Orthodox has been effected in the past with what are now the sui uris churches, and this provides us with the best idea of what a more comprehensive reunion would look like. Unfortunately there have been a number of problems, including:

1. Latinization; pressuring churches to accept Latin practices that are foreign to their traditions
2. Rights; the loss of historic rights such as self governance and the appointment of bishops
3. Respect; being considered dubiously Catholic by many Roman Catholics, and made to feel inferior

There seems to have been some positive steps since Vatican II to address these problems, but far too slowly and unevenly in my opinion. Why would the Orthodox want reunion when historically this is what it has looked like? I don’t say this out of spite, and I personally would love to see more dialogue toward the goal of reunion, but these are things that concern me, and have been a significant source of contention for Eastern Catholics.

 

[Nine_Two]

i think the longer the orthodox remain obstinate on union with rome the longer they will continued to be chastised by islam and secularism. i don’t think it’s any coincidence that both in the middle east and in russia, the orthodox church has been under constant attack and have by in large are losing to these outside forces.

i don’t take it lightly and think it’s a great scandal that the church is split with most of the blame resting on the orthodox and their pride. sure, we in the west have huge warts, but at least the sacred deposit of faith has remained pure. the orthodox now are legitimizing the contraception of their people–what a shame!

This is why I don’t think reunion is likely.

The sheer irony of accusing people of being too proud to submit to the humility that is the Catholic Church…

 

[trophybearer]

This is why I don’t think reunion is likely.

The sheer irony of accusing people of being too proud to submit to the humility that is the Catholic Church…

Have you seen what’s become/becoming of Catholicism in the US? heresy and lunacy within your Church and a secular society that increasingly views your Church as at best irrelevant and at worst a place to which you can’t safely entrust your children. I’m sure for you that just means you’re blessed as per the words or the Lord, while for us it’s “chastisement”. Try a little perspective for a change.

 

[Vixit]

I’d love to eventually see another non-Western Pope. Italians had that position on lockdown for the longest time! Finally a Slav and a German, and maybe someday a Greek or Armenian or Russian?

 

[Ferde_Rombola]

This is why I don’t think reunion is likely.

The sheer irony of accusing people of being too proud to submit to the humility that is the Catholic Church…

Sadly, you have a point, though it’s a little late. The division is considerably older than the weakening of the Catholic Church, which is fairly recent, and I don’t think that’s reason your grandfather didn’t seek unity. Let’s not get into duelling sins, okay? We know the difference between the Church and the people in the Church. If you were really serious, you’d want to unify our Churches if only to strengthen them.

Yes, the Catholic Church needs much repair, as in St. Francis’s time. It’s underway. We have many more new, young orthodox bishops and priests now and fewer homosexuals masquerading as men of God. We have a return to the Latin Mass under way and it’s gaining traction all over the world. That means to me a return to sacred Liturgy. The new Cardinals the Pope names yesterday are 180 away from the likes of Roger Mahony. We’ve been begging God for years to rescue us and I think he heard us. We’ve been through these satanic attacks in the past, as have you, and in the end, the jaws of death, etc. and the Church will prevail.

In the meantime, I’d still like to hear from you exactly what you think you have to submit to. I’m 73 years old, I’ve lived through at least six popes and I fail to see the resemblance of any of them to the Nazi SS general you seem to see. I’ve seen a succession of prayerful, gentle, highly intelligent men who have tried their best to serve God and the Church in the most trying times. What’s your problem? Other than the problem you have with the Lord giving the keys to Peter (which problem you should take up with Him). How has any pope in your lifetime offended you? Other then by being pope?

 

[Warrenton]

I don’t seem to recall reading anything from the fathers about the ancient practice of holding clown Masses. I don’t know, maybe I missed something?

This is one of the funniest things I’ve read lately. You slay me!

 

[Ferde_Rombola]

I’m well aware of all of that. This an old, very long conversation, but it’s kind of you to point it out.

I meant Orthodox politics. Should have been clearer about that.

Well aware of that, too. What that means is the Orthodox have a beef with Vatican I and a 19th Century pope, whose dogmatic statement was directed to Martin Luther and the German princes. I’m asking Nine-Two for specifics post 19th Century. I thought I was clear about that. I’ve asked him several times in the past and am still waiting for his answer. Your answer for him isn’t what I’m looking for, but I thank you for it.

Do you mean it’s argumentative? Yes, it is. But is it true?