Catholic-Orthodox marriage question

[wasure]

I have a friend in a complicated situation, that I would appreciate any help in resolving. She is Catholic and never been married. The guy is Russian Orthodox, and has been civilly married/divorced before (i.e. justice of the peace; not within/recognized by the Orthodox Church). Both wish to remain members of their respective churches when/if they marry. They are considering a marriage in the Orthodox Church (since the Catholic Church recognizes it, while the reverse is not true). It brings up a number of questions though, that we’re not sure how to answer:

1. Does she need to get a dispensation for the marriage from her bishop to remain in communion with the Catholic Church?
2. Does she need to vow to raise the children Catholic to get this? (For an Orthodox marriage, the couple needs to vow to raise the children Orthodox… not sure how this works.)
3. Does his civil marriage/divorce affect the validity of the marriage for the Catholic Church?
4. Does his civil marriage/divorce affect the validity of the marriage for the Orthodox Church? (This is probably the wrong place for this question, but figured I’d ask anyway.)
5. Is it possible for them have a second marriage ceremony in a Catholic Church after being married in the Orthodox Church?
6. Are there any other issues that we haven’t thought about that need to be considered, or anything else that would adversely affect or be a consequence of such a marriage?

Thank you for all your help!

 

[Aramis]

1. yes. it’s straightforward, however… once his divorce is dealt with.
2. Technically, no. But the Bishop might not grant the dispensation without said promise.
3. Yes
4. perhaps.
5. No. Orthodox sacraments, including marriage, are valid.
6. lots of them…

The children, if raised Orthodox, will likely be taught that Catholic Sacraments are invalid; not so much by the Orthodox parent, but by their fellow orthodox.

A number of families in similar situations compromise on raising the children within one of the Byzantine Rite Catholic Churches, usually either the Ukrainian or Melkite.

Many Orthodox bishops won’t grant the dispensation to marry a Catholic without the promise to raise the children in the Orthodox church. Some simply won’t grant the dispensation.

A Catholic marrying an Orthodox in an Orthodox service needs a Catholic Cleric (Deacon or Priest) in attendance to stand witness for the Catholic Church that the marriage occurred.

Orthodox families are more likely than Catholic families to put pressure to convert on the “alien” spouse. If both families are staunchly old-school, family gatherings can become quite difficult.

There is the issue of language, as well; many Orthodox families maintain their homeland tongues; it’s not uncommon in Eastern Catholic families, and it’s also not uncommon in Polish Latin Church communities.

There is also the issue of Calendar… Some Orthodox and Eastern Catholic parishes are not on the new calendar, which can make issues such as holidays and fasting more complex, especially if the spouse is on the other calendar.

none of them are insurmountable not universal, but all are considerations.

 

[Just_Lurking]

1. Does she need to vow to raise the children Catholic to get this? (For an Orthodox marriage, the couple needs to vow to raise the children Orthodox… not sure how this works.)

Can. 1125 The local ordinary can grant a permission of this kind if there is a just and reasonable cause. He is not to grant it unless the following conditions have been fulfilled:

1/ the Catholic party is to declare that he or she is prepared to remove dangers of defecting from the faith and is to make a sincere promise to do all in his or her power so that all offspring are baptized and brought up in the Catholic Church;

2/ the other party is to be informed at an appropriate time about the promises which the Catholic party is to make, in such a way that it is certain that he or she is truly aware of the promise and obligation of the Catholic party;

3/ both parties are to be instructed about the purposes and essential properties of marriage which neither of the contracting parties is to exclude.

1. Does his civil marriage/divorce affect the validity of the marriage for the Catholic Church?

No, however, the Catholic priest will need to conduct a quick and straightforward investigation into the circumstances of the civil marriage to verify that the required form was not followed. It may take up to a month and may cost up to $100.

1. Does his civil marriage/divorce affect the validity of the marriage for the Orthodox Church? (This is probably the wrong place for this question, but figured I’d ask anyway.)

No, the Orthodox Church does not consider civil weddings valid for members of the Orthodox Church, as in the Orthodox Church the priest is the minister of the sacrament of matrimony.

 

[Phemie]

1
A Catholic marrying an Orthodox in an Orthodox service needs a Catholic Cleric (Deacon or Priest) in attendance to stand witness for the Catholic Church that the marriage occurred.

Is this a requirement by the Orthodox Church?

I don’t know about other countries but in Canada it’s up to the Catholic party who has a dispensation for “lack of form” to inform his/her parish that the marriage has occurred, not up to a cleric to witness it.

 

[puzzleannie]

there are a lot more issues, namely that of the man’s standing in his own church, which ordinarily will not recognize his marriage outside the church, nor a marriage to a non-orthodox, nor allow him to raise his children outside his church. These we are not competent to discuss here. It may very well be possible eventually for them to marry according to Catholic canon law after his first marriage is adjudicated, but that will not put him in good standing with his own church, and depending on the strength of his beliefs, be another source of strain in the marriage.

If this is a hypothetical case we can discuss until the cows come home, which does not make anything we say actually right or real-world. If it is a real case, the casual bystander should not be concerned other than academically. Unless it is a relative or someone for whose soul you have a responsibility (godchild, for instance) best to stay out of it and assume they are following church law even though you are not aware of all the steps they have taken, if they eventually marry in the Catholic church.

Any issue particularly marriage, becomes more complicated when it involves and Orthodox Christian, and most parish marriage prep people (and RCIA teams) and even pastors are not up on all the ramifications and should consult the diocese when assisting such couples.

short answer: yes if everything else is in place and in order, a Catholic can get (not necessarily will get) a dispensation to marry an Orthodox Christian in the Orthodox Church. What they cannot do is be rebaptized, which some Orthodox still require. No they cannot have two church weddings. The only time there can be two ceremonies is if civil law in the country requires they be married civilly first and does not recognize Church weddings.

 

[bpbasilphx]

Keep in mind that the non-Orthodox party has to promise to allow any childred to be baptized in the Orthodox Church, and raise them as such.

Now what?

 

[Just_Lurking]

Here is a link to a booklet on Catholic-Orthodox marriage.

 

[Aramis]

Is this a requirement by the Orthodox Church?

I don’t know about other countries but in Canada it’s up to the Catholic party who has a dispensation for “lack of form” to inform his/her parish that the marriage has occurred, not up to a cleric to witness it.

Nope, it is technically required for the Catholic partner’s licity in the marriage. Mostly because an Orthodox marriage is not lack of form. (it’s identical to the Byzantine Catholic form)

 

[wasure]

Thanks for clarifying these issues for us. I’m looking this up online for her, since she asked me to. It is early in their relationship, but she doesn’t want to stay involved unless they would eventually be able to get validly married in the Catholic Church’s eyes. The Church comes first for her, and she doesn’t want to put herself in a situation down the road that would cause much greater difficulty from surprises popping up.

If an Orthodox person got married in a different church, then they are out of communion with the Orthodox Church. Does this no longer apply to the civil marriage? (That marriage has officially divorced and final, so this is the only way I see it mattering).

If both sides require them to raise the children in opposite churches, can this be resolved without breaking from one of their churches (which they wouldn’t do)?

Language isn’t an apparent issue in this case, as both familes speak English primarily.

We hadn’t thought about the calendar, but that is a good thing to remember.

Thanks for letting us know that a double ceremony isn’t a possibility, and for linking to that brochure. I’ll pass that along to her.

I appreciate all of your assistance and advice.
Thank you,

 

[1ke]

Thanks for clarifying these issues for us. I’m looking this up online for her, since she asked me to. It is early in their relationship, but she doesn’t want to stay involved unless they would eventually be able to get validly married in the Catholic Church’s eyes. The Church comes first for her, and she doesn’t want to put herself in a situation down the road that would cause much greater difficulty from surprises popping up.

If an Orthodox person got married in a different church, then they are out of communion with the Orthodox Church. Does this no longer apply to the civil marriage? (That marriage has officially divorced and final, so this is the only way I see it mattering).

If both sides require them to raise the children in opposite churches, can this be resolved without breaking from one of their churches (which they wouldn’t do)?

Language isn’t an apparent issue in this case, as both familes speak English primarily.

We hadn’t thought about the calendar, but that is a good thing to remember.

Thanks for letting us know that a double ceremony isn’t a possibility, and for linking to that brochure. I’ll pass that along to her.

I appreciate all of your assistance and advice.
Thank you,

This is the very reason why, after meeting a very nice Greek Orthodox man, we decided not to date. I would never leave the Catholic Church, and he would never leave the GO Church. There was no way we could reconcile our responsibilities to our respective faith traditions, the requirements of our faith regarding children, and our own hearts desire to be united in faith within a marriage.

I don’t think the issue of raising children can be resolved, honestly.

Remember, they would have to go through marriage prep in the Catholic Church-- and his marriage would have to be submitted to the Tribunal for an investigation of nullity. And, I presume they would also have to receive instruction in the Orthodox Church regarding marriage.

I know people who’ve done it, but it’s “worked” when one or the other didn’t really practicing their religion.