"Catholic-Orthodox talks on papacy" document from catholic culture; its implications?

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This again. Not only did Ignatius not submit an appeal, he even stated that he did not wish for an appeal to be sent. You are really thinking no differently from ultramontanists on this point of history. The rest of your post consists of you nitpicking over words. I think you should read the scripture quoted in your signature line several times.
Again, you are glossing over the facts. The Sardican Canons say that EITHER the deposed OR the ones who deposed can submit the case to the Pope. You keep pointing out that Ignatius did not submit an appeal, but you did not even respond to the fact that the Emperor and St. Photius BOTH submitted the case to the Pope for his confirmation. The course of events was all within the Canons. You can claim the Pope’s decision was unfair or uninformed, but you have no justification to claim that he went beyond his authority.

Blessings,
Marduk
 
Yes, but then why all the fuss?

At any rate, if you take the Orthodox path back to first millenium, the reference to Patriarchiates (specifically, the Pentarchy of Rome, Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch, and Jerusalem) is fairly evident and well defined and generally accepted. At some point, the Church of Rome functioned more like a Patriarchiate than perhaps it does today. Pehaps I attempted to make a point using a poor reference.

Good to see you active on CAF again! Haven’t seen you in a while …
I’ve been active in the World News forum regarding the Presidential race, but I’ve had difficulty with the way that forum is currently being organized so I came drifting through again. Aside from that I’ve just been very busy and posting less in general, but I’m always reading. 😛

As for why all the fuss, I honestly don’t know. I can see how it might be viewed as a “power grab” if the historical context and the explanation of the move is ignored or unknown, and I don’t know if the Orthodox who complained were aware of those facts.

The big thing is that the term “Patriarch” for Rome simply wasn’t used in the West, even in the first millennium. It has no grounding in Latin tradition, and in fact the term “Patriarch” was used for a very different role, more like a Major Archbishop. The Latin Church isn’t unique in this regard either, as the Armenian Church uses the title “Patriarch” in much the same way. In their tradition it is “Catholicos” that fills the role of what the Greeks would call a Patriarch. The Coptic Church also uses a different term for its Patriarch (Pope, in fact), but I don’t know if they use Patriarch for other offices as the Latins and Armenians do.

Mardukm?

Peace and God bless!
 
I would like to address the idea that the primacy of a bishop is only honorary and carries authority. A study of the primacy of the Patriarch of Constantinople was undertaken by Lewis Patsavos in his essay “The Primacy of the See of Constantinople in Theory and Practice”, which is found on the website of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America. He writes in his introduction:

“The position of honor accorded the Bishop of Constantinople brought with it genuine authority (exousia). This is made evident by several factors including: appeals from other churches; the importance of the Resident Synod (Endemousa Synodos); the authority exercised by several renowned patriarchs such as Saint John Chrysostom, who involved themselves with matters beyond the territorial limits of the Church of Constantinople (such as evangelizing the Goths and Scythians among others, and reforming the independent dioceses of Pontos, Asia, and Thrace).”

He then discusses at length historical examples of this primacy. He concludes:

"The history of the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople demonstrates a longstanding canonically-based tradition of leadership within Orthodoxy. This tradition is seen in the moral authority it exercises, as expressed in the events enumerated above. It brings with it special privileges, one of which is the right to take initiative, with the consent of the other churches, in general ecclesiastical matters effecting them all. The presveia times fully recognizes that all bishops are equal by divine institution, having received the same degree of episcopal grace and sharing the same unbroken apostolic succession. This does not mean, however, that all bishops are equal in honor in the canonical system of ecclesiastical administration. They have different titles and different prerogatives, depending upon the status historical precedent has established for them. Some bishops have thereby obtained hierarchical seniority, exercising greater influence because of it. In practice, the tradition of the Church has preserved a “hierarchy of honor” which corresponds to the τιρεσβεΤα τιμής.

The Orthodox Church has always recognized that each area has its own first bishop, variously called archbishop, metropolitan, or patriarch, depending upon the extent of his authority. Furthermore, she has always acknowledged one among them in the universal Church as first. Since the separation of the Eastern and Western churches, the Patriarch of Constantinople has been recognized as first, his authority having been recognized as equal to that of the Bishop of Rome since the Fourth Ecumenical Council.

Before concluding, it is important to state how the hierarchical seniority, status of precedence, and authority of the Patriarch of Constantinople within Orthodoxy are not understood. In the words of Metropolitan Máximos of Sardis: ‘The patriarch of Constantinople rejects any ‘plenitudo potestatis ecclesiae’ and holds his supreme ecclesiastical power not as ‘episcopus ecclesiae universalis,’ but as Ecumenical Patriarch, the senior and most important bishop in the East. He does not wield unrestricted administrative power. He is not an infallible judge of matters of faith. Always the presupposition of his power is that in using it he will hold to two principles: conciliarity and collegiality in the responsibilities of the Church and non intervention in the internal affairs of the other churches. . . .’

Keeping in mind these fundamental concepts of non-interference, conciliarity, and collegiality, it is important to note that as the principal spokesman for all the heads of the Orthodox churches, the Ecumenical Patriarch not only holds πρεσβεία τιμής, but also prerogatives of true ecclesiastical authority. These prerogatives are manifested in his role as supreme administrator and judge within his own jurisdictional territory, and as facilitator/convener for the entire Orthodox Church in general ecclesiastical matters, in consultation with the other heads of the Orthodox Churches. As history has shown repeatedly, his intervention has been sought in resolving disputes and arbitrating sensitive issues in the life of other Orthodox churches. Such, in fact, has been his authority, that without his approval an ecclesiastical act affecting all of Orthodoxy would be considered, at the very least, canonically insufficient.
The authority exercised by the Ecumenical Patriarchate is borne out by history and the canons. It is, however, an authority understood as service according to the example of Christ. It is this image of service which predominates in its relations as πρωτόθρονος with the other Orthodox Churches for the purpose of fostering unity among them and assisting in their mission to the world."

goarch.org/ourfaith/primacy-constantinople

In light of this, I fail to see why a similar role for the Bishop of Rome in a reunited Church would be so unacceptable for us Orthodox.
 
the view you are saying doesn’t seem to resound with the view I see on here and believed from the pulpit down. Its only the minority ECs that seem to hold to such a belief
It’s a more common view than you’d think. I’m a Latin Catholic, and I’m in full agreement with Marduk on the papacy and ecclesiology. And I’m not the only one, either.
I would personally be willing to accept the above as conditions for reunion. I would like to ask now what Catholics would be willing to compromise for this goal. Again I would like to emphasize that I’m not talking about issues of dogma, but of practical governance.
That sounds quite reasonable. In my opinion, as a Latin Catholic, I agree with Ghosty’s suggestions. I would also suggest getting rid of the Congregation for the Oriental Churches. It doesn’t seem to me to make a lot of sense for a Roman Curial department (i.e. the structure which developed in the Latin Church, for the Latin Church) to oversee the eastern churches. If they require the pope’s attention, he’ll hear about it sooner or later.
Pope Leo XIII (a Pope dear to my heart as a Coptic Catholic) wrote in Satis Cognitum:

But if the authority of Peter and his successors is plenary and supreme, it is not to be regarded as the sole authority. For He who made Peter the foundation of the Church also “chose, twelve, whom He called apostles” (Luke vi., 13); and just as it is necessary that the authority of Peter should be perpetuated in the Roman Pontiff, so, by the fact that the bishops succeed the Apostles, they inherit their ordinary power, and thus the episcopal order necessarily belongs to the essential constitution of the Church. Although they do not receive plenary, or universal, or supreme authority, they are not to be looked as vicars of the Roman Pontiffs; because they exercise a power really their own, and are most truly called the ordinary pastors of the peoples over whom they rule.
Beautiful.

And I will reiterate once again for the sake of everyone on this thread that before I even really understood these issues, I was essentially catechized into the “High Petrine” view all my life in the Latin Church.
If the Pope is to leave each bishop to oversee his own diocese without any sort of allowed intervention (please correct me if I am misreading the threads) would spell disastrous for the catholic church. You’d get pro women’s ordination and homosexuality in North America, pro polygamy in Africa, etc. The set up of the CoE and where power/authority lies has been its downfall in meeting modern secular culture… i feel that this proposal is a veneer of that same underlying beliefs?
The difference is that the Catholic understanding is that these things cannot be altered. If a bishop attempted to ordain women to the priesthood, that would certainly justify papal intervention. The standards for orthodoxy are clear - based, as they are, on Scripture, Tradition, and Magisterial teaching, and if a bishop violates them, then the pope’s ordinary authority could indeed permit him to take action. He has no right, however, to intervene in what properly belongs to the authority of an orthodox bishop.
I firmly believe the absolute petrine view, as it is called here, is the only force able to meet modern day secular culture and be a force to counter it… this is what lead me to my journey to find out whether the papacy is a development or reality in the first place. Now the waters seem so muddled that one can not distil what is the “real” church teaching on the matter
The pope is not the only factor standing between the forces of secular culture and the Catholic hierarchy. Sacred Tradition and previous Magisterial teachings do so as well, as does every orthodox bishop.
 
Wow, good timing as I just read this thread today. 😃

Off the top of my head here are a few changes I think the Catholic Church should make, and would have to in order to realize unity with the Orthodox Churches:
  1. The Pope has no say in the ordination and enthroning of Bishops in the non-Latin Churches, except in cases of dispute where Rome is appealed to.
2 There should be a general, universal Canon Law that deals with matters that pertain to the Communion as a whole, but each particular Church should have its own Code of Canon Law that is not directed by Rome. All matters that apply only to the way in which a particular Church operates should be legislated “in house”, and though the Pope would still be a court of final appeal in disputes, due consideration should be given to the norms of the Particular Churches when adjudicating these disputes.
  1. For the sake of expediency and good will, all Catholic Churches should adopt the Orthodox dating of Easter. I don’t believe either side is “right” on this matter, but I think it would be much less tumultuous for Catholics to adopt the Orthodox dating than the other way around.
  2. Make it abundantly clear that the Pope can’t simply “write up” new Dogmas, but rather has the power of “confirming the bretheren” in the Faith. Popular theological opinions and major theological debates can be definitively settled by the Pope, but only acting collegially. This doesn’t require an Ecumenical Council per se, and it doesn’t mean that the Pope can be “out voted” (the Pope’s job is to be the final safeguard of the Faith, after all), but it must reflect a meeting of the minds among the Bishops, and a preservation of the Faith handed down. If an Ecumenical Council isn’t warranted, the Pope must consult with the Bishops regarding the proposed Dogma (re: Immaculate Conception), or the doctrine must be so widely and deeply held that it is already essentially an accepted part of the deposit of Faith (re: Assumption of Mary). The Pope should also make clear precisely why the Dogma is being asserted, and what purpose it is meant to serve in the Faith; it’s not enough to simply present it as a fact, it should have a teaching quality to it that preserves a central Truth about God or our relationship with Him.
  3. Make it very clear that the Bishops, but most especially the Patriarchs, stand with the Pope rather than below him. Whenever possible the Patriarchs and Pope should be presented as a united face of the Communion, rather than the Pope being the “big cheese”. The Pope is definitely the “elder brother”, and has certain responsibilities that go beyond those of his brother Bishops, but he shouldn’t be held out as a tier apart from the Patriarchs at the very least.
Some of these things are already present in the teaching of the Catholic Church, but they could be brought out more clearly and fully, and should be regardless of reunion with the Orthodox Churches, IMO.

Peace and God bless!
Great ideas!
These type of threads pain me. Seriously.

And leave me feeling quite disillusioned. Ghosty, in response to your question as to why these threads pain me, Hesychios, has it in a nutshell.

Very distressing.
I’m sorry, TrueLight. 😦

I feel that it’s good that potential converts are getting this information before they become Catholic. How terrible would it be for them to convert due to a flawed understanding of the papacy? Is it not ultimately better that they discover where Catholic teaching lies before they make their final decision?
 
But if the authority of Peter and his successors is plenary and supreme, it is not to be regarded as the sole authority. For He who made Peter the foundation of the Church also “chose, twelve, whom He called apostles” (Luke vi., 13); and just as it is necessary that the authority of Peter should be perpetuated in the Roman Pontiff, so, by the fact that the bishops succeed the Apostles, they inherit their ordinary power, and thus the episcopal order necessarily belongs to the essential constitution of the Church. Although they do not receive plenary, or universal, or supreme authority, they are not to be looked as vicars of the Roman Pontiffs; because they exercise a power really their own, and are most truly called the ordinary pastors of the peoples over whom they rule.
Let it never be said you merit mockery you for your very well-versed, educational, and sober explanations of various Petrine theology! :o I would still like to see you assemble an article fraught with Magisterial documents (such as ones you have mentioned, Pastor Aeternus, some of the other “canons” you mentioned, etc…) explaining the validity of the High Petrine view versus Absolute or Low.

Also, in the above quote, where it mentions the bishops inheriting the Apostles inheriting their “ordinary power,” can you expound on what that term encompasses? I presume that it would exclude some charism native to Apostles such as penning Scripture. What else?
 
document in question: catholicculture.org/news/headlines/index.cfm?storyid=7732

After reading this, I started to become troubled with certain questions. If the Church is willing to allow the Orthodox to accept a papal position reflective of first millennium Christianity… it seems this would cause other theological ripples. As an Anglican discerning conversion to Rome for the last couple years the papacy has been the major hurdle for me to get over.* If Rome is now saying that it might allow such a theological stance to be taken, I can’t help but think that my church along with Lutheranism and other denominations would never have come in to existence. Obviously there was other underlying causes but the papacy was a major instigating issue. Allowing a first century interpretation affirms a lot of what classical protestantism has been saying for centuries!? *

I don’t understand this move, and it has further complicated my thinking - as I have been doing extensive reading on first millennium Christianity hoping to solve some of my issues (essentially seeing from these sources, that* the Pope did in deed have such a position and was not a later development). Is the church now invalidating numerous apologetics which have sought to maintain a modern understanding of the pope in the first millennium!? *

Please someone who is more knowledgeable on this topic than I, speak up. How do I make sense of this “ecumenical” move? It seems like complete undermining.
Keep in mind, a commission such as the one you linked to, doesn’t speak for the Church. They discuss. They don’t bind any one or bind any thing. Much like the commission at Ravenna. pcf.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/ch_orthodox_docs/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_20071013_documento-ravenna_en.html I draw your attention to the box at the top of the document. Read that clarification, and see what I mean.

With respect to what Archbishop Kurt Koch, president of the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity and co-chair of the dialogue, was reported saying in the link you provided: (emphasis mine)
"Pope Benedict XVI already said in his famous lecture in Graz in 1976 that we cannot expect more from the Orthodox than what was practiced in the first millennium. So the basic discussion is about how these churches lived in the first millennium and how we can find a new (common) path today…[snip] "

For your consideration:

  1. ]Benedict XVI wasn’t pope in 1976. He was cardinal Ratzinger then. So he couldn’t speak then with the authority of the pope.
    ]I doubt then Cardinal Ratzinger or now Pope Benedict XVI, would propose in 1976 or today, an idea that would contradict the Church’s view on the papacy in anyway and in any millenium. As you say, for one such as yourself, considering conversion to the Church, “if the Church is willing to allow the Orthodox to accept a papal position reflective of first millennium Christianity… it seems this would cause other theological ripples.”
    Maybe it’s not as it seemed to you. If the Catholic Church as you say was willing to “accept” papal positions from the 1st millenium, maybe that speaks volumes for the Catholic position, and still creates major problems for the Orthodox apologetic regardless of which millenium one chooses.
    *]considering todays Orthodox know that same history also, if they still can’t/won’t come to any agreement, going back to the 1st millenium papacy, I think that speaks volumes about Card Ratzinger’s proposal and I think it speaks volumes about the 1st millenium papacy. I would look at it as, he must have been confident about what he proposed … or he wouldn’t have made it…true?
 
While I don’t think this would change the facts of the protestant reformation, I do tend to agree that by giving this statement it is a tacit agreement that the second millenium view of the papacy is either wrong, or at the least, questionable.
Since there is no agreement from today’s Orthodox on the papacy, even using 1st millenium standards, I’d suggest it really doesn’t matter then which millenium one uses. The papacy always had primacy.
 
It seems silly to believe that the pope had some special power in the western church but not in the eastern church. Logically, he either has a place of universal authority or none (and as a result the current view is a development if this is the case). Why would the bishop of Rome have precedence over other bishops in the west at the exclusion of eastern bishops? This seems problematic and not the argument made in history or by current apologetics.
You’re correct.
 
This is what the Roman Catholic church says of itself:

Wherefore we teach and declare that, by divine ordinance, the Roman church possesses a pre-eminence of ordinary power over every other church, and that this jurisdictional power of the Roman pontiff is both episcopal and immediate.

Both clergy and faithful, of whatever rite and dignity, both singly and collectively, are bound to submit to this power by the duty of hierarchical subordination and true obedience, and this not only in matters concerning faith and morals, but also in those which regard the discipline and government of the church throughout the world.

Since this is not is not apostolic and not historical, the Orthodox consider it a heresy to teach as a dogma. It is not a divine ordinance, it is historical revisionism that the Orthodox reject.
Ever see the following quote? See any similarities?

[we do this, I say,] by indicating that tradition derived from the apostles, of the very great, the very ancient, and universally known Church founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul; as also [by pointing out] the faith preached to men, which comes down to our time by means of the successions of the bishops. For it is a matter of necessity that **every Church **should agree with this Church, on account of its pre- eminent authority, inasmuch as the apostolic tradition has been preserved continuously by those faithful men who exist everywhere.

That’s from Irenaeus year ~180 a.d.

Irenaeus was from Smyrna. He was a disciple of Polycarp bishop of Smyrna. Polycarp was a disciple of St John the apostle and also St Ignatius of Antioch who was also a disciple of St John. Irenaeus was made bishop of Lyon France by the pope.
H:
But it is a fundamental element of the Roman Catholic church ecclesiology. It is a claim that the Papacy has an intrinsic authority which should extend over the Orthodox/Eastern Catholic churches which was never true.

It is well known that these notions of Papal universal jurisdiction are a development, not present and not functioning in the early church and it is also well known that some of the early support for Papal authority was forged (these forgeries did influence others who had no idea of it). Part of the reason for these things was an attempt by western clergy to counter-balance the negative influence of western monarchs and nobility on the governing of church affairs.
It is not apostolic, it was not that way from the beginning, so no. If someone was to claim that all churches should be under the patriarch of Jerusalem (for example) it would be just as unsupportable and wrong.
On the contrary, Irenaeus identifies who it is he got this teaching from that he writes about.
  • tradition from the apostles
  • Peter and Paul at Rome
  • The Church of Rome because of it’s preeminent authority
 
Regarding this quote, I am very interested to see what happens (as I presume many others are). The document, “Steps Towards A Reunited Church: A Sketch Of An Orthodox-Catholic Vision For The Future”, was issued just about a year-and-a-half ago, and seems to be largely “under the radar” so far. For example, I checked the Apologetics, Traditional Catholicism, and Non-Catholic Religions forums, as well as the 2 news forums, and none of them contain any mention of it.
Don’t make too much out of quotes from discussions from committees. Those committees have no authority. They are discussion groups.
 

  1. ]I doubt -]then Cardinal/-] Professor Ratzinger or now Pope Benedict XVI, would propose in 1976 or today, an idea that would contradict the Church’s view on the papacy in anyway and in any millenium. As you say, for one such as yourself, considering conversion to the Church, “if the Church is willing to allow the Orthodox to accept a papal position reflective of first millennium Christianity… it seems this would cause other theological ripples.”* Maybe it’s not as it seemed to you. If the Catholic Church as you say was willing to “accept” papal positions from the 1st millenium, maybe that speaks volumes for the Catholic position, and still creates major problems for the Orthodox apologetic regardless of which millenium one chooses.

  1. Indeed, and I think it’s also worth noting that while much is made of Orthodox conversions to Catholicism, they are not terribly common. To assume that the thinking of ex-Orthodox is representative of the Orthodox isn’t exactly sound.
 
Don’t make too much out of quotes from discussions from committees. Those committees have no authority. They are discussion groups.
Yes, but this group did offer an honest analysis and a compelling set of recommendations. It is worthy of study.
 
Yes, but this group did offer an honest analysis and a compelling set of recommendations. It is worthy of study.
If you’re willing to forgive their disuse of the “High Petrine”, “Low Petrine”, and “Absolutist Petrine” categories. :bigyikes:But I guess we can let that slide. 😃
 
If you’re willing to forgive their disuse of the “High Petrine”, “Low Petrine”, and “Absolutist Petrine” categories. :bigyikes:But I guess we can let that slide. 😃
Disuse? How so? I don’t recall those terms being used in that document. Do you recall otherwise?
 
Huh? “Disuse” has traditionally meant lack of use. Has that meaning changed?
 
Huh? “Disuse” has traditionally meant lack of use. Has that meaning changed?
No, I don’t think Webster has changed his mind. I misread you (really need to get off these boards and get some sleep) - my bad.😊

I’d still recommend a read of this doc to those interested in the cause of unity, as it represents a possible scenario that was agreed by a mixed group of Orthodox and Catholic contributors. This work did get a constructive reaction from Rome at the time it was issued (I’m trying to track down the article).
 
Keep in mind, a commission such as the one you linked to, doesn’t speak for the Church. They discuss. They don’t bind any one or bind any thing. Much like the commission at Ravenna. pcf.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/ch_orthodox_docs/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_20071013_documento-ravenna_en.html I draw your attention to the box at the top of the document. Read that clarification, and see what I mean.

With respect to what Archbishop Kurt Koch, president of the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity and co-chair of the dialogue, was reported saying in the link you provided: (emphasis mine)"Pope Benedict XVI already said in his famous lecture in Graz in 1976 that we cannot expect more from the Orthodox than what was practiced in the first millennium. So the basic discussion is about how these churches lived in the first millennium and how we can find a new (common) path today…[snip] "
For your consideration:
Another consideration is:
On the question of communion with the Bishops of Rome, we know that the doctrine concerning the primacy of the Roman Pontiff has experienced a development over time within the framework of the explanation of the Church’s faith, and it has to be retained in its entirety, which means from its origins to our day. One only has to think about what the first Vatican Council affirmed and what Vatican Council II declared, particularly in the Dogmatic Constitution Lumen Gentium Num. 22 and 23, and in the Decree on ecumenism Unitatis Redintegratio Number 2.
As to the modalities for exercising the Petrine ministry in our time, a question which is distinct from the doctrinal aspect, it is true that the Holy Father has recently desired to remind us how “we may seek–together, of course–the forms in which this ministry may accomplish a service of love recognized by all concerned” (Ut unum sint, 95); however, if it is legitimate to also deal with this on a local level, it is also a duty to do this always in harmony with a vision of the universal Church. Touching this matter, it is appropriate to be reminded that in any case, “The Catholic Church, both in her praxis and in her solemn documents, holds that the communion of the particular Churches with the Church of Rome, and of their Bishops with the Bishop of Rome, is–in God’s plan–an essential requisite of full and visible communion” (Ut unum sint, 97).
That’s from a 1997 letter, signed by then-Cardinal Ratzinger (along with Card. Silvestrini, Card. Cassidy) in response to the Melkite Iniative.

Around the same time, the Antiochian Orthodox Church issued a statement which included these concerns on the Melkite proposal:
"In this regard, our Church questions the unity of faith which the Melkite Catholics think has become possible. Our Church believes that the discussion of this unity with Rome is still in its primitive stage. The first step toward unity on the doctrinal level, is not to consider as ecumenical, the Western local councils which the Church of Rome, convened, separately, including the First Vatican Council.

“And second the Melkite Catholics should not be obligated to accept such councils. Regarding inter-communion now, our Synod believes that inter-communion cannot be separated from the unity of faith. Moreover, inter-communion is the last step in the quest for unity and not the first.”
byzcath.org/faith/documents/melkite_initiative_2.htm

Clearly, both sides believe that unity of faith needs to be achieved first.
 
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