Catholic-Orthodox Timeline: Bonocore Responds

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What is truly breathtaking is the above statement in the light of Matthew 18:18, where Christ gives this same authority to all the disciples.
Jesus gave his authority of loosing and binding to Peter on a separate occasion and in a singular manner (which no other apostle can lay claim to), either indicating that he could loose and bind apart from the other apostles (papal infallibility) or it could signify that his power to loose and bind equaled that of all the apostles put together (universal jurisdiction). In Matthew 18:18 all the apostles were given the power to loose and bind, but Peter was included in this group (an act which I would consider redundant unless Jesus meant for Peter to have greater authority), suggesting that their power to loose and bind was/is always connected with the “rock” of the church. My point is, why would Jesus trouble himself with singling out Peter in the first place, giving him a name change and handing him the keys if there was no distinction in authority? There is no denying that there was/is a distinction in how Peter received the power to loose and bind as compared to how the other apostles received it.
 
Dear Roman Catholics everywhere (but especially on CAF, where I see this exact argument reoccur over and over),

Please, please stop bringing up the non-Chalcedonian Orthodox in your arguments with the Byzantine Chalcedonians. You guys agree on that council, so you don’t get to turn around later and say “But what about this one?”, as though you actually doubt it. Are you converting to Oriental Orthodoxy? No? Then stop it. You’re not making a point. You’re only irritating me. We don’t accept Chalcedon or your supposed Papal prerogatives, and the attempt to defend one by bringing up the other is really annoying and wrong.
I’ll be the first one to admit ignorance.

You don’t accept Chalcedon… So you are Oriental Orthodox? If so, that’s pretty cool, you are the one and only Oriental Orthodox I talk to!!!

Hi, I’m Jose :tiphat:

Have you heard about Peter the Apostle?

😃
 
Dear Roman Catholics everywhere (but especially on CAF, where I see this exact argument reoccur over and over),

Please, please stop bringing up the non-Chalcedonian Orthodox in your arguments with the Byzantine Chalcedonians. You guys agree on that council, so you don’t get to turn around later and say “But what about this one?”, as though you actually doubt it. Are you converting to Oriental Orthodoxy? No? Then stop it. You’re not making a point. You’re only irritating me. We don’t accept Chalcedon or your supposed Papal prerogatives, and the attempt to defend one by bringing up the other is really annoying and wrong.
Hmmm … kind of reminds me of Orthodox saying to us “You accept branch theory, you must be Anglicans.”

:hmmm:
 
"frjohnmorris:
Pope Honorius I not only taught Monothelitism. He was responsible for defining the heresy.
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frjohnmorris:
The letter of Pope Honorius to Patriarch Sergius of Constantinople is the origin of the heresy of Monothelitism
It was Pope Honorius who refined the teachings of Monothelitism in a letter to Patriarch Sergius of Constantinople. The 6th Ecumenical Council condemned Pope Honorius for teaching heresy.
The sentence against the Monothelistes sent to the emperor stated, “And with these we
define that there shall be expelled from the holy Church of God and anathematized Honorius who was some time Pope of Old Rome, because of what we found written by him to Sergius, that in all respects he followed his view and confirmed his impious doctrines.” The council further declared, “Therefore we declare that in him there are two natural wills and two natural operations, proceeding commonly and without division: but we cast out of the Church and rightly subject to anathema all superfluous novelties as well as their inventors: to wit, Theodore of Pharan, Sergius and Paul, Pyrrhus, and Peter (who were archbishops of Constantinople), moreover Cyrus, who bore the priesthood of Alexandria, and with them Honorius, who was the ruler (πρόεδρον) of Rome,** as he followed them** in these things.”
I do not know how more specific the council could have been that Honorius was condemned for teaching heresy.** Please note that I am not quoting from a pamphlet or book written by an Eastern Orthodox writer, but from the actual acts of the council as found in the vol. of the Nicene Fathers containing the decrees of the Ecumenical Councils.** In order to justify Vatican I, Roman Catholic writers resort to all sorts of linguistic devices. However, they cannot contest the text of the actual decrees of the council which clearly condemn Pope Honorius for teaching heresy.

Fr. John
I find it curious that you appeal to the language of the council, yet your conclusions that Pope Honorius originated and defined the heresy directly contradict the language of that same council. The Council lists the inventors of the heresy as “Theodore of Pharan, Sergius and Paul, Pyrrhus, and Peter (who were archbishops of Constantinople), moreover Cyrus, who bore the priesthood of Alexandria.” The Council then says “and with them Honorius . . . as he followed them in these things,” thereby indicating, in fact, that Pope Honorius was NOT the originator of the heresy and was not condemned for originating the heresy, but rather for “follow[ing] [the inventors of the heresy] in these things.” Please note that I am not quoting from a pamphlet or book written by a Roman Catholic writer, but from the actual acts of the council as found in the vol. of the Nicene Fathers containing the decrees of the Ecumenical Councils.
 
Hmmm … kind of reminds me of Orthodox saying to us “You accept branch theory, you must be Anglicans.”

:hmmm:
How so, Peter J? You are Chalcedonians by virtue of accepting Chalcedon. That’s what Chalcedonian means. Unless you’re no longer accepting Chalcedon, it’s not putting some foreign term onto you.

My point was that it’s odd and unsettling that any Chalcedonian would seem to be casting doubt on the Council that defines them as their own communion, even if only for rhetorical purposes, especially in service of much later developments.
 
I find it curious that you appeal to the language of the council, yet your conclusions that Pope Honorius originated and defined the heresy directly contradict the language of that same council. The Council lists the inventors of the heresy as “Theodore of Pharan, Sergius and Paul, Pyrrhus, and Peter (who were archbishops of Constantinople), moreover Cyrus, who bore the priesthood of Alexandria.” The Council then says “and with them Honorius . . . as he followed them in these things,” thereby indicating, in fact, that Pope Honorius was NOT the originator of the heresy and was not condemned for originating the heresy, but rather for “follow[ing] [the inventors of the heresy] in these things.” Please note that I am not quoting from a pamphlet or book written by a Roman Catholic writer, but from the actual acts of the council as found in the vol. of the Nicene Fathers containing the decrees of the Ecumenical Councils.
I thought perhaps this would help in furthering your explanation/stance:
I. Many were condemned by the Sixth Council; Sergius, Cyrus, Pyrrhus, Petrus, Paulus, Macarius, etc., and together with these, Honorius. Of all the rest we find it said, in the condemnatory clauses of the Council, that they had maintained one will in Christ; nowhere is this said of Honorius. Therefore it cannot be proved by the authority of the Council that Honorius taught one will in Christ.
II. In none of the Acts of the Council is it said that Honorius is called a heretic because he maintained or taught heresy.
III. It is said expressly, and not once only, that Honorius is condemned because, by his silence, he fostered the Monothelites and followed the counsel of Sergius. For example, Act. Conc. XIII., "We execrate the impious dogmas of these men, and we judge that their own names shall be cast forth from the Holy Church of God, that is to say, Sergius, Cyrus, Pyrrhus, Peter, and Paul, and also Theodore. . . . And with these we order that Honorius be cast out and anathematized, because we find by the writings, made to Sergius, that in all things he followed his counsel and confirmed his impious doctrines." The Latin has sequi mentem ejus, which is ambiguous, aud may mean either to follow the doctrine, or follow the intention and plan of Sergius; but the original Greek text, of which the Latin is a translation, has, without any ambiguity, "followed the counsel."
Honorius, therefore, is not condemned like the rest for his impious dogmas, but because, by following the counsel of Sergius, he did not repress but strengthened (confirmavit) an impious dogma.
IV.** It is expressly said. in the Acts, that God cannot endure that rule of silence, “Et quomodo non indigneretur Deus qui blasphemebatur et non defendebatur.” “And how could God but be indignant, who was blasphemed and NOT defended?” (In Sermo Prosphonetics, Act. XVIII.)** Hence, also, and for the same reason the Council is indignant, and hurls its anathema against Honorius.
V. The letters of Honorius were burned because they were destructive to the Church and favorable to the heretical contumacy of Sergius, not indeed, in doctrine, but in their approbation of the rule of silence and in too great lenity toward the heresiarch. They are condemned not because they contained the same impiety as the writings of the others, but because “ad unam eademque impietatem tenderent;” they tended (in the Greek concurred) to one and the same impiety."
VI. If, therefore, Honorius is called a heretic, and is anathematized and cast out, it is not for heresy, but for connivance towards heretics. And expressly in this sense was the intention of the Council interpreted by the Emperor Constantine, who was not only present at the Council, but took part in it. In the same sense did St. Leo interpret it, who, having carefully examined the Acts of the Council and conferred with the legates who presided over it, approved them and translated them into Latin. Both Constantine and Leo say that Honorius was condemned, not because he taught error, but because he had favored and strengthened heretics, and had, not stained the Church himself, but suffered it to be distained by others.
 
I’ll be the first one to admit ignorance.

You don’t accept Chalcedon… So you are Oriental Orthodox? If so, that’s pretty cool, you are the one and only Oriental Orthodox I talk to!!!

Hi, I’m Jose :tiphat:
Hi Jose. I’m Jeremy. It’s nice to meet you. 🙂

Yes, I’m Orthodox, and we in the Oriental Orthodox communion of which the Coptic Orthodox Church is a part do not accept Chalcedon or subsequent councils of the Byzantines or the Latins.
Have you heard about Peter the Apostle?
Certainly. He’s the greatest. 👍 If you wish, have a listen/read how we venerate him and his partner in evangelism, St. Paul, in the Coptic Orthodox tradition. 🙂
 
I find it curious that you appeal to the language of the council, yet your conclusions that Pope Honorius originated and defined the heresy directly contradict the language of that same council. The Council lists the inventors of the heresy as “Theodore of Pharan, Sergius and Paul, Pyrrhus, and Peter (who were archbishops of Constantinople), moreover Cyrus, who bore the priesthood of Alexandria.” The Council then says “and with them Honorius . . . as he followed them in these things,” thereby indicating, in fact, that Pope Honorius was NOT the originator of the heresy and was not condemned for originating the heresy, but rather for “follow[ing] [the inventors of the heresy] in these things.” Please note that I am not quoting from a pamphlet or book written by a Roman Catholic writer, but from the actual acts of the council as found in the vol. of the Nicene Fathers containing the decrees of the Ecumenical Councils.
Ka-BOOM.

🍿
 
SUMMARY OF THE DISCUSSION SO FAR


  1. *]Eastern Fathers and Theologians Agree: Peter is the Rock in Mt. 16:18 (Peter’s confession, Jesus, and all the apostles might also be the rock in some other contexts)
    *]Eastern Theologians Agree: Doctrine does develop (without adding to the faith)
    *]Eastern Father and Theologian Agree: Peter had Universal Jurisdiction
    *]Ecumenical Council Proves Honorius was NOT the Source of the Monothelitism Heresy
    *]The Massacre of the Latins (60,000 Latins killed or displaced) occurred 20 years BEFORE the sacking of Constantinople.

    Have we missed anything?
 
Randy : In following your posts I have to agree with you that I think that yu have summed up conpletely the veiws and argumnts brought forth so far. Thanks for all the imformation you have given as I have learned so much of the history that I did not know
 
How so, Peter J? You are Chalcedonians by virtue of accepting Chalcedon. That’s what Chalcedonian means. Unless you’re no longer accepting Chalcedon, it’s not putting some foreign term onto you.
Your earlier post, (#342) made sense to me … but I’m sorry to say you’ve now lost me. :confused:
 
As far as the discussion goes regarding St. Peter as the Rock, what about the passage in Ephesians 2:19-20?

19Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household,

20built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone.
 
“Whatever you loose on earth is also loosed in heaven; whatever you bind on earth is also bound in heaven.”

The word “whatever” in this context is truly breathtaking, isn’t it?

And yet, it is precisely to one man, Peter, that Jesus gives such awesome authority and responsibilty. That is why we know that the Holy Spirit takes an active role in protecting the one flock from the vicarious shepherd through the charism of infallibility.
When Our Lord spoke to St. Peter, He used the future tense. He gave St. Peter the authority to bind and loose, when He gave the other Apostles the same authority after His Resurrection from the dead. For the authority to loose and bind, is the authority to pronounced absolution. St. John 20:21-23. Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.” Every Bishop has the same authority and gives it to those Priests who are authorized to hear Confessions and to pronounce absolution.

Fr. John
 
As far as the discussion goes regarding St. Peter as the Rock, what about the passage in Ephesians 2:19-20?

19Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household,

20built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone.
Sure, in that passage Jesus is the cornerstone. Elsewhere in Sacred Scripture, God is the rock and the Apostles are called the foundation stones.

However, and this is key, in Matthew 16:18-19, Jesus is the BUILDER. Peter is the rock.

We have to be careful not to assume that just because something is true in one passage, it is the same in every passage.

Hope that helps.
 
When Our Lord spoke to St. Peter, He used the future tense. He gave St. Peter the authority to bind and loose, when He gave the other Apostles the same authority after His Resurrection from the dead. For the authority to loose and bind, is the authority to pronounced absolution. St. John 20:21-23. Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.” Every Bishop has the same authority and gives it to those Priests who are authorized to hear Confessions and to pronounce absolution.

Fr. John
Of course He used future tense…He hadn’t died, risen and ascended, yet.

A royal steward only exercised his authority in the absence of the king. Peter’s role as the Royal Steward of Jesus’ kingdom - so clearly seen in the parallels between Mt. 16:18-19 and Is. 22:20-22 as well as his role as the vicarious shepherd of the one flock - only began once the King and the Good Shepherd had returned to heaven. THEN the Steward began to exercise the authority given to him in the keys and to care for and feed the sheep which, until that time, had been cared for by Jesus directly.

As for the ability to forgive sins, of course. All bishops and the priests who are ordained by them have been given the authority to forgive sins.
 
Sure, in that passage Jesus is the cornerstone. Elsewhere in Sacred Scripture, God is the rock and the Apostles are called the foundation stones.

However, and this is key, in Matthew 16:18-19, Jesus is the BUILDER. Peter is the rock.

We have to be careful not to assume that just because something is true in one passage, it is the same in every passage.

Hope that helps.
Concerning this passage St. John Chrysostom said, “What then saith Christ? “Thou art Simon, the son of Jonas; thou shalt be called Cephas. Thus since thou hast proclaimed my Father, I too name him that begat thee;” all but saying, “As thou art son of Jonas, even so am I of my Father.” Else it were superfluous to say, “Thou art Son of Jonas;” but since he had said, “Son of God,” to point out that He is so Son of God, as the other son of Jonas, of the same substance with Him that begat Him, therefore He added this, “And I say unto thee, Thou art Peter, and upon this rock will I build my Church;” that is, on the faith of his confession.”
The Rock upon which the Church is built is the faith in Christ confessed by St. Peter, not the person of Peter himself.
One would think that the councils that defined orthodox Christianity considered it important that the Church be built on St. Peter, there would have been at least one reference to this text at one of the councils that reflect the Roman Catholic interpretation. There is no reference at all to this text at any of the 7 Ecumenical Councils.
Fr. John
 
Of course He used future tense…He hadn’t died, risen and ascended, yet.

A royal steward only exercised his authority in the absence of the king. Peter’s role as the Royal Steward of Jesus’ kingdom - so clearly seen in the parallels between Mt. 16:18-19 and Is. 22:20-22 as well as his role as the vicarious shepherd of the one flock - only began once the King and the Good Shepherd had returned to heaven. THEN the Steward began to exercise the authority given to him in the keys and to care for and feed the sheep which, until that time, had been cared for by Jesus directly.

As for the ability to forgive sins, of course. All bishops and the priests who are ordained by them have been given the authority to forgive sins.
Your linking of Matthew 16:18-19 with Isaiah 22:20-22 is an interpretation in which the scriptures are used out of context to support a preconceived notion. It is called eisegesis. You are reading your ideas into the text, not taking your ideas from the text. If St. Peter or his successors in Rome had exercised the kind of authority exercised by modern Popes, we would see examples of a Pope exercising that kind of authority during the age of the Holy Fathers and Ecumenical Councils. There is no such example. Every major decision effecting the entire Church was made by an Ecumenical Council not a papal decree. For a papal decree, such as the Tome of Leo, to have ecumenical authority, it first had to be studied and approved by an Ecumenical Council.There is not a single case of a papal decree having ecumenical authority unless if was accepted by an Ecumenical Council during the first 1,000 years of church history. The Bishop of Rome had great influence and was recognized as holding a primacy on honor, but was never recognized by the ancient undivided Church as holding absolute unquestionable authority over the Church.
In the Orthodox only Priests authorized by their Bishop can hear Confessions and give absolution. In Antiochian Orthodox tradition a Priest who is authorized to hear Confessions is given a vestment called an epignathion by the Bishop. Because of the situation here in America where our parishes are usually far apart, every Priest is given the epignathion at ordination as I was.

Fr. John
 
Concerning this passage St. John Chrysostom said, “What then saith Christ? “Thou art Simon, the son of Jonas; thou shalt be called Cephas. Thus since thou hast proclaimed my Father, I too name him that begat thee;” all but saying, “As thou art son of Jonas, even so am I of my Father.” Else it were superfluous to say, “Thou art Son of Jonas;” but since he had said, “Son of God,” to point out that He is so Son of God, as the other son of Jonas, of the same substance with Him that begat Him, therefore He added this, “And I say unto thee, Thou art Peter, and upon this rock will I build my Church;” that is, on the faith of his confession.”
The Rock upon which the Church is built is the faith in Christ confessed by St. Peter, not the person of Peter himself.
One would think that the councils that defined orthodox Christianity considered it important that the Church be built on St. Peter, there would have been at least one reference to this text at one of the councils that reflect the Roman Catholic interpretation. There is no reference at all to this text at any of the 7 Ecumenical Councils.
Fr. John
Sounds like “both/and” and not “either/or” to me, Father. Chrysostom and other fathers sometimes spoke of one and sometime the other interpretation.

This is perfectly acceptable to Catholics because we are not threatened by either view point. But it is truly devastating to the Orthodox position because once it has been admitted that Peter is the rock, then so many implications arise. That’s why you deny the plain reading of the text so vigorously…you can’t afford to let that first domino fall. 👍
 
Concerning this passage St. John Chrysostom said, “What then saith Christ? “Thou art Simon, the son of Jonas; thou shalt be called Cephas. Thus since thou hast proclaimed my Father, I too name him that begat thee;” all but saying, “As thou art son of Jonas, even so am I of my Father.” Else it were superfluous to say, “Thou art Son of Jonas;” but since he had said, “Son of God,” to point out that He is so Son of God, as the other son of Jonas, of the same substance with Him that begat Him, therefore He added this, “And I say unto thee, Thou art Peter, and upon this rock will I build my Church;” that is, on the faith of his confession.”
The Rock upon which the Church is built is the faith in Christ confessed by St. Peter,** not the person of Peter himself.**
One would think that the councils that defined orthodox Christianity considered it important that the Church be built on St. Peter, there would have been at least one reference to this text at one of the councils that reflect the Roman Catholic interpretation. There is no reference at all to this text at any of the 7 Ecumenical Councils.
Fr. John
(Emphasis mine)

Notice Fr. John, that St. John Chrysostom did not say what you said; he only affirmed the positive; ‘on the faith of his confession.’ I made this point in another conversation with you, though granted, you have had interactions on many threads with many posters.

Anyway, the Catechism of the Catholic Church itself says:

“424 Moved by the grace of the Holy Spirit and drawn by the Father, we believe in Jesus and confess: 'You are the Christ, the Son of the living God. On the rock of this faith confessed by St. Peter, Christ built his Church.” (Par. 424) (Emphasis mine)

Yet elsewhere:

“881 The Lord made Simon alone, whom he named Peter, the ‘rock’ of his Church. He gave him the keys of his Church and instituted him shepherd of the whole flock. ‘The office of binding and loosing which was given to Peter was also assigned to the college of apostles united to its head.’ This pastoral office of Peter and the other apostles belongs to the Church’s very foundation and is continued by the bishops under the primacy of the Pope.” (Par. 881) (Emphasis mine)

That is because these two interpretations are complimentary, so long as one doesn’t exclude St. Peter from being the “rock” as you have done. Notice in your citation of St. John Chrysostom, he didn’t do this. In other writings, St. John refers to St. Peter as “’…the unbroken Rock, the unshaken foundation…’ " (De Eleemos III, 4, vol II, 298[300])” or “’…the foundation of the Church’ (Hom 3 in Matt 5, vol VII, 38[42])”

(Source: philvaz.com/apologetics/num52.htm)

Even in the same Homily you cited Fr. John, St. John Chrysostom later says:

“‘Do you see how He Himself leads Peter to a high consideration of Himself, and reveals Himself and shows Himself to be the Son of God by these two promises? For what is proper to God alone, that is, to forgive sins, and to make the Church in so great an onset of waves, and to cause a fisherman to be stronger than any rock, when the whole world wars against him…’” (Homily 54) (Ibid.)

As Dom John Chapman said, regarding the whole series of passages he gives from Homily 54: “I think this passage alone would have made it clear that the Rock is Peter, in St. Chrysostom’s view, as well as, and because of, the firmness of his confession.** He has no idea of the two notions, ‘Peter is the Rock’ and ‘his faith is the Rock’ being mutually exclusive, as, in fact, they are not.** It is equally clear that the promise is understood as granting him an ecumenical jurisdiction in a way which is not given to the other apostles.” (Ibid.) (Emphasis mine).
 
Also Fr. John,

Regarding St. Peter being the “Rock”, it is included in the Acts of the 7th Ecumenical Council in the form of the Latin version of Pope St. Hadrian’s letter to the Byzantine Emperor and Empress (albeit the portion of the Greek version which was read had edited it out). Also, we have the words of Philip the Presbyter and Papal legate at the Council of Chalcedon:

“‘Philip, presbyter and legate of [Pope Celestine I] said: ‘We offer our thanks to the holy and venerable synod, that when the writings of our holy and blessed pope had been read to you, the holy members, by our holy voices, you joined yourselves to the holy head also by your holy acclamations. For your blessedness is not ignorant that the head of the whole faith, the head of the apostles, is blessed Peter the apostle. And since now [we], after having been tempest-tossed and much vexed, [have] arrived, we ask that you order that there be laid before us what things were done in this holy synod before our arrival; in order that according to the opinion of our blessed pope and of this present holy assembly, we likewise may ratify their determination’’ (Acts of the Council, session 2 [A.D. 431]).”

Source: catholic.com/tracts/the-authority-of-the-pope-part-ii
 
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