Catholic/Orthodox unity

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Are they stated as that? I know that in the case of a conditional baptism the Catholic priest will say in effect that as long as this has not already been done, I baptize you in the name…
I am not sure if Orthodox priests use similar type wording. But the belief, as I understand it, is essentially the same. In effect, you can only receive the Sacrament (Mystery) of Baptism once. If the first baptism was in fact valid, the second one is just a “bath”. But if the first baptism was invalid (documented or not), then the sacrament would take place.

Most Orthodox jurisdictions today do not re-baptize but instead receive Catholic converts by Chrismation. In any event, even those few jurisdictions that insist on re-baptizing Catholics are not as bad as the many Protestant denominations that re-baptize every convert even if they have been “baptized” several time in other “churches”. Many of the “churches” (Baptists come to mind) don’t even consider baptism as necessary for salvation, but only as a requirement for membership within their “church”.
 
So is it the Orthodox practice to leave it up to individual priest to decide whether or not a person needs to be baptized and declare a baptism valid or invalid?
No. We simply don’t try to figure out whether it was “valid” or not. We know where the Church is, we don’t know where it isn’t, to try to guess on that is pointless. Only an Orthodox Baptism is considered fully valid. Beyond that we leave it in God’s hands.
 
No. We simply don’t try to figure out whether it was “valid” or not. We know where the Church is, we don’t know where it isn’t, to try to guess on that is pointless. Only an Orthodox Baptism is considered fully valid. Beyond that we leave it in God’s hands.
Does our EO requirement for “full immersion” Baptism have any impact on this?
 
No. I was accepted by Economia and Christmation even though I had a traditional Anglican (pouring) Baptism.
I had a Latin Catholic baptism.

My Orthodox priest informed me that I would be received through confession and communion, as per Archbishop Job (Memory Eternal!) whom I had the pleasure of talking with on a few occasions. He knew I was a practicing Byzantine Greek Catholic at the time, so that may have had something to do with the decision, but I don’t see why since my baptism was according to the Latin practice of pouring. Anyway I know that this was an extension of Economia on his part, and I am gratified by it.

I told my priest that I would have much preferred to be received by Chrismation with the other converts, and he said “I am glad you said that, I agree”… and so it was by Chrismation I was received. This, of course, is still an extension of Economia.

I must add that I was all on fire for this, and if the bishop had decided I should be dunked three times in a tub I would have accepted it without any reservations! I wanted to be Orthodox.

I find it sadly amusing when someone who has no interest at all in converting gets all sparked up and offended because people from their own church have agreed to be baptized in order to become Orthodox. I used to feel exactly the same way :eek: !

But in reality it’s none of their business unless they want to be Orthodox too, and if they cannot accept this, they are simply not ready.
 
Are you saying there are no breakaway groups emanating from Orthodoxy?
**No… I am not saying this at all.

I am however, asserting the historical fact that splits from the Orthodox Church pale into insignificance when compared to the millions of Christians denied apostolic succession as a result of splits from the Roman Church - and subsequent splits from those.

This is historically incontestable, and should be of fundamental concern to the Church of Rome. We EO view this phenomenon as “error piled upon error”. If it were not, then how could the Holy Spirit have allowed this to happen?**
 
**No… I am not saying this at all.

I am however, asserting the historical fact that splits from the Orthodox Church pale into insignificance when compared to the millions of Christians denied apostolic succession as a result of splits from the Roman Church - and subsequent splits from those.

This is historically incontestable, and should be of fundamental concern to the Church of Rome. We EO view this phenomenon as “error piled upon error”. If it were not, then how could the Holy Spirit have allowed this to happen?**
While I agree that there is no comparison in the East of the Western splits you have to remember we are only in the beginning stages of the “old calendar” schismatic movements. The split in Martin Luther’s time looked vastly different then the outcomes we are seeing today.

You can see many of the Orthodox schismatics breaking away from each other and moving further and further into heresy as time progresses. The end result will be each believing there are the only true church and only Grace filled church. This is not exactly the same as in the West but we are not seeing it 500 years later.

gocamerica.org/
This is a link to a guy claiming to be the only “real” Bishop in America! I’ve watched him go through almost all known jurisdictions over the years becoming crazier and crazier as he goes! I wonder what this church will look like 500 years from now?
 
While I agree that there is no comparison in the East of the Western splits you have to remember we are only in the beginning stages of the “old calendar” schismatic movements. The split in Martin Luther’s time looked vastly different then the outcomes we are seeing today.

You can see many of the Orthodox schismatics breaking away from each other and moving further and further into heresy as time progresses. The end result will be each believing there are the only true church and only Grace filled church. This is not exactly the same as in the West but we are not seeing it 500 years later.

gocamerica.org/
This is a link to a guy claiming to be the only “real” Bishop in America! I’ve watched him go through almost all known jurisdictions over the years becoming crazier and crazier as he goes! I wonder what this church will look like 500 years from now?
**Thanks for your outlandish “prediction”…

But if you look at established, indisputable fact, the RC Church has and is the product of a myriad of heresy (error)… error piled upon error, as far as we EO are concerned.**
 
Thanks for your outlandish “prediction”…
So I’m guessing from this well thought out response you do not believe that the old calendar schisms will digress? So your saying there is not evidence that they are already splitting up and falling further from the True Orthodox Church?
But if you look at established, indisputable fact, the RC Church has and is the product of a myriad of heresy (error)… error piled upon error, as far as we EO are concerned.
This is not a sentence! Are you asking me if I believe the RC Church is in heresy according to the EO Church? If so I agree with this or I would not have converted from the RCC to the EOC! This does not change the fact that the Orthodox are having some problems with there own version of “protestants” now. Its not the same or for the same reasons but there are issues here and if you don’t see that I’m sorry.

Since you think I made a “outlandish prediction” what is yours? You don’t think these breakaway groups from Orthodoxy will fall further and further away from Orthodoxy over time? If you believe this to be “outlandish” how do you explain the RC Church? It was once part of Orthodoxy and split off around 1000 years ago correct? Is the RC Church today the same as it was 1000 years ago?
 
**Ok… I’ll give this a try.

Old Calendar vs. New Calendar is not something we Orthodox see as critical to the faith.

I am personally a member of an Old Calendar Church - many other friends and family who are still fully “Orthodox” are adherents to the “New Calendar”.

Calendrical issues are NOT fundamental to the Apostolic Faith. Julian or Gregorian.

What is important, is that we confess, and profess the same faith - and regardless of the dates, we do.

I am glad you have re-joined with the true mother Church… and hope that your experience is as wonderful as mine still is… we often joke in my family that we get two goes at Christmas and Easter!!! But our respect andf understanding of these great days is identical.**
 
**Ok… I’ll give this a try.

Old Calendar vs. New Calendar is not something we Orthodox see as critical to the faith.

I am personally a member of an Old Calendar Church - many other friends and family who are still fully “Orthodox” are adherents to the “New Calendar”.

Calendrical issues are NOT fundamental to the Apostolic Faith. Julian or Gregorian.

What is important, is that we confess, and profess the same faith - and regardless of the dates, we do.

I am glad you have re-joined with the true mother Church… and hope that your experience is as wonderful as mine still is… we often joke in my family that we get two goes at Christmas and Easter!!! But our respect andf understanding of these great days is identical.**
I guess when I said old calendar schismatics I was painting with to broad of a brush. I know all Old Calendar Churches are NOT schismatics its a small group of them like the link I posted. I was at an Old Calendar Church last week to Venerate the Kursk Root Wonderworking Icon. Its the schismatic types that deny other Orthodox have Grace that I’m calling Orthodox’s version of protestants. If I was not clear and offended anyone with my broad brush stroke I apologize because that was not my intent.

Also, I do not think what happened in the West is the same as what is going on in EO now I’m just curious to see some of the breakaway Orthodox will look like 500 years from now. I pray to God they are back within Orthodoxy!
 
Also, I do not think what happened in the West is the same as what is going on in EO now I’m just curious to see some of the breakaway Orthodox will look like 500 years from now. I pray to God they are back within Orthodoxy!
Some may come back into the fold—others may fade into the sunset. All canonical Orthodox Churches share the same apostolic faith.

We pray for the others to return. 🙂
 
**All I can do is put forward my view.

I do NOT consider “New Calendar” Orthodox as schismatic in any way.

Here in Australia, The Eastern Orthodox Church is the third largest Christian denomination.

Catholics are the largest, followed closely by Anglicans and other protestants.

Many Australian Catholics are part of the Eastern Rites - and follow the “Old Calendar” in common with their Orthodox roots. We Orthodox love and respect these brethren, but are not in fullest communion with them - and it has nothing to do with the calendar they follow. It has only to do with the faith they profess.

The actual calendar followed is not the factor that makes one a part of the Orthodox Faith.

The determining factors are ones adherence to the tenets of the ancient and original United and Apostolic Church teachings.

Dates and calendars are a contrivance of mortal men - and God does not care if Pope Gregory thought that the month of July (named for Julius Caesar) had too many days in it because of human vanity.

To God, time is eternal, and to men it is too often perceived as something to be manipulated. The Eastern Orthodox Church does not confine it’s constituent parts to man made rules. It only insists that the faith we profess is identical … and therefore, we remain in full communion.

Personally, I can attend a Greek Orthodox Liturgy on December 25 for Christmas - and then again on January 6th in the Ukrainian Church (or Russian, Bulgarian, Romanian, Serbian etc…) without compromising a single tenet of the Eastern Orthodox Faith.

Schism only really happens when articles of faith are altered or innovated - and the calendar does not qualify for this.**
 
As someone who is seriously looking into Orthodoxy, I found your post insightful. If you’ll excuse me, however, I do have some comments to make.
I find it sadly amusing when someone who has no interest at all in converting gets all sparked up and offended because people from their own church have agreed to be baptized in order to become Orthodox. I used to feel exactly the same way :eek: !
The reason many Catholics get rattled up about this is because it goes straight into the validity of their own baptism (mine included). We, as Catholics, believe that the Sacrament (Mystery) of Baptism is only conferred once. If we have to be re-baptized in order to join the Eastern Orthodox Church, then we are pretty much admitting that there is at least a possibility that our Catholic baptism was not valid. That is troublesome (and understandably so) to some Catholics (again, me included).
My Orthodox priest informed me that I would be received through confession and communion, as per Archbishop Job (Memory Eternal!) whom I had the pleasure of talking with on a few occasions. He knew I was a practicing Byzantine Greek Catholic at the time, so that may have had something to do with the decision, but I don’t see why since my baptism was according to the Latin practice of pouring. Anyway I know that this was an extension of Economia on his part, and I am gratified by it.
This would be my choice for receiving a Catholic convert if the candidate’s baptism and confirmation are deemed valid.
I told my priest that I would have much preferred to be received by Chrismation with the other converts, and he said “I am glad you said that, I agree”… and so it was by Chrismation I was received. This, of course, is still an extension of Economia.
Chrismation seems to be the preferred way of receiving Catholic converts into Orthodoxy. In principle, I find this method better, if for no other reason out of economia. But even receiving Catholic converts through Chrismation (the Orthodox equivalent of the Catholic Sacrament of Confirmation) implies that the Catholic confirmation is not valid (Catholics believe that confirmation is also received only once). Is Chrismation done because Orthodox believe the Catholic Sacrament of Confirmation not to be valid or do they believe this mystery can be confer more than once? That would be a theological difference between our Churches.
I must add that I was all on fire for this, and if the bishop had decided I should be dunked three times in a tub I would have accepted it without any reservations! I wanted to be Orthodox.
If I decided to convert to Orthodoxy I would consider being re-baptized (i.e. being “dunked three times in a tub”) only if I concluded that there was a possibility that my Catholic baptism was not valid. So far, I have not reached that conclusion through my studies. Even the discussions between recent Popes of Rome and Patriarchs of Constantinople seemed to indicate that despite the many differences between our Churches, the latter does not considered Catholic sacraments to be invalid.
But in reality it’s none of their business unless they want to be Orthodox too, and if they cannot accept this, they are simply not ready.
Actually, with all due respect, if we talk about future unity between our Churches then whether our Catholic baptism is considered valid or not is everyone’s business. Furthermore, it is not a matter of converts to Orthodoxy not being “ready”. The Eastern Orthodox Church itself does not have all the answers on this regard. That is why some jurisdictions re-baptize and other chrismate. And yet others receive their Catholic converts into the Orthodox Church by confession and communion. We, in the Roman Catholic Church, receive Orthodox converts by a profession of faith since we believe all Orthodox mysteries (i.e. sacraments) to be valid. This is not the case with other churches such as the Anglican. When Anglican priests, for example, convert to Catholicism they are not re-baptized, but receive all other sacraments including Holy Orders (if accepted into the Catholic clergy) since we do not believe them to be valid.
This, of course, is still an extension of Economia.
I am still trying to understand the concept of economia. In principle I agree with it because it seems to go hand in hand with the “authority to bind things”, plus it goes with the pastoral prerogatives of the bishop and pastor (parish priest). For the most part, it seems like the Christian thing to do (of course, always on a case by case basis). That being said, if out of economia a bishop can decide to receive a Catholic convert through chrismation, that means that his/hers baptism must have been valid since baptism (in most cases) is necessary for salvation and always required to make us part of the Church and the Body of Christ. Economia or not, no one can be part of the Church without a valid baptism. And that is true, as I understand it, in both the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Churches.
 
**
Schism only really happens when articles of faith are altered or innovated - and the calendar does not qualify for this.**
I agree with most of what you said except this last part. What your talking about is heresy not schism. I’m pretty sure you can be in schism and not be a heretic. Groups like the “Church of the Genuine Orthodox Christians of Greece” are schismatics but they are not heretics. When you separate yourself from communion with the Church you are is schism as some Old Calendar Churches have done. What I was trying to say a few posts back was that the longer some of these groups stay in schism the more likely they will fall into heresy.

I want to state that this is my understanding of the matter so it can be totally wrong! 😃
 
I guess when I said old calendar schismatics I was painting with to broad of a brush. I know all Old Calendar Churches are NOT schismatics its a small group of them like the link I posted. I was at an Old Calendar Church last week to Venerate the Kursk Root Wonderworking Icon. Its the schismatic types that deny other Orthodox have Grace that I’m calling Orthodox’s version of protestants. If I was not clear and offended anyone with my broad brush stroke I apologize because that was not my intent.

Also, I do not think what happened in the West is the same as what is going on in EO now I’m just curious to see some of the breakaway Orthodox will look like 500 years from now. I pray to God they are back within Orthodoxy!
You got to see the icon, too? I went in December to a local church that was hosting it for a day. It was amazing! What did you think about it?

In Christ,
Andrew
 
**All I can do is put forward my view.

I do NOT consider “New Calendar” Orthodox as schismatic in any way.

Here in Australia, The Eastern Orthodox Church is the third largest Christian denomination.

Catholics are the largest, followed closely by Anglicans and other protestants.

Many Australian Catholics are part of the Eastern Rites - and follow the “Old Calendar” in common with their Orthodox roots. We Orthodox love and respect these brethren, but are not in fullest communion with them - and it has nothing to do with the calendar they follow. It has only to do with the faith they profess.

The actual calendar followed is not the factor that makes one a part of the Orthodox Faith.

The determining factors are ones adherence to the tenets of the ancient and original United and Apostolic Church teachings.

Dates and calendars are a contrivance of mortal men - and God does not care if Pope Gregory thought that the month of July (named for Julius Caesar) had too many days in it because of human vanity.

To God, time is eternal, and to men it is too often perceived as something to be manipulated. The Eastern Orthodox Church does not confine it’s constituent parts to man made rules. It only insists that the faith we profess is identical … and therefore, we remain in full communion.

Personally, I can attend a Greek Orthodox Liturgy on December 25 for Christmas - and then again on January 6th in the Ukrainian Church (or Russian, Bulgarian, Romanian, Serbian etc…) without compromising a single tenet of the Eastern Orthodox Faith.

Schism only really happens when articles of faith are altered or innovated - and the calendar does not qualify for this.**
You need to distinguish between Old Calander Churches and Old Calanderists. Old Calanderists are a schismic movement that believe the Revised Julian Calander is a heretical innovation. Old Calander Churches are for the most part Orthodox and don’t see a problem with the Revised Julian Calander, but don’t use it.
 
Chrismation seems to be the preferred way of receiving Catholic converts into Orthodoxy. In principle, I find this method better, if for no other reason out of economia. But even receiving Catholic converts through Chrismation (the Orthodox equivalent of the Catholic Sacrament of Confirmation) implies that the Catholic confirmation is not valid (Catholics believe that confirmation is also received only once). Is Chrismation done because Orthodox believe the Catholic Sacrament of Confirmation not to be valid or do they believe this mystery can be confer more than once? That would be a theological difference between our Churches.
We have no belief that one may not be rechristmated, and it has traditionally been the method by which those who are Baptised but embraced heresy are brought back into the faith. In fact the service for Christmation alone seems to work on the principle that the one doing it has been a member of the Church before, with the opening portion having them stand by and renounce heresy, as opposed to the Baptismal service which focuses on the acceptance of Christ (although the Creed is recited at both services).
 
You got to see the icon, too? I went in December to a local church that was hosting it for a day. It was amazing! What did you think about it?

In Christ,
Andrew
Yes it was in Norfolk VA on the 01/28 and I went to the service. It was very moving and the first time in the 11+ years I’ve been Orthodox I’ve had a chance to venerate a Wonderworking Icon. My wife is a Catachuman and she really enjoyed it. It was a wonderful evening that I will always remember!
 
**I have never encountered such a thing as an Old Calendrist in Australia - and know of not a single Church adhering to this view.

To pronounce schism on the basis of a man made disciplinary rule, with no scriptural or theological basis to my mind is just silly.**
 
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