Catholic/Orthodox unity

[SingleMomMonica]

OMG!

**You have the audacity to claim that the 7 Ecumenical Councils as “false historical events”?!
**
You have rejected the Holy Spirit completely!!!

As long as you continue to reject the Holy Spirit and the Church of Jesus Christ You will never know Peace.

I sincerely hope that at some point in life You Will come to have and know Peace.

 

[jimmy]

you are very good in criticism but you have not point out where is my ignorance of history. what have i said that is ignorant of history? thanks for the criticism.

it only infuriates those whose pride is more important than acknowledge Truth.

It also amazes me how EO gather themselves around those who have done nothing but rely on false historical events to rebel against the teachings of the CC.

Peace.

The problem is that not all popes have been holy men. Maybe the current pope is, but the past popes haven’t always been so.

Why would the east want to be under the authority of the pope when it was the authority of the pope that declared that eastern Catholics in the New world could not have married priests? It was a pope who said that all the eastern liturgies were inferior to the western liturgy because the western liturgy is that of Rome. The fact is that the eastern Catholics have been treated as second class citizens by the west for a long time. Our theology has been steped on and ignored as if it is meaningless. The real question is why would the Orthodox want to associate with the pope who has encouraged the subjugation of the east as second class citizens? It is only recently that the popes have begun to consider the east as holding some value.

What are these false historical events that you speak of?

Further it seems that you ascribe to the nonsense arguement that the east are simply proud and disobedient fools that was propagated in the west for a long time. We have no foundation for our arguements, we are just proud and disobedient. We should rather lay down and kiss the feet of the pope.

 

[Marie5890]

So anyway, if people want to talk about how great unity would be, a first step may be to cease the personal insults against members of the other group in the guise of advice…

This thread is presently as unproductive in its original goal as a beached whale.

 

[Nine_Two]

Your previous post falls in that category, I’m afraid.

 

[Marie5890]

Your previous post falls in that category, I’m afraid.

No worries, Nine_Two and certainly no offense taken ; I know Christ is the perfect judge and with the advent of the internet and online communications there is wisdom in that.

So you may think that it does, but only He knows what is true.

There was no frustration in my posts. No accusations. Only universal appeal to considering the beam’s in one’s eye while considering the mote of another.

As human beings, when we get frustrated, we tend to lash out at others and lose our devotion to Christian Charity. Its always good to be reminded of that. Its a typical and human failing.

That happens a great deal on this board as you so admirably pointed out.

 

[Marie5890]

It seems to me that when the very things you have mentioned happen, its the greatest evidence that people have taken their eyes off of the Lord and gotten caught up in the crowds.

What would the Lord think of the ranting and ravings is a good question to put in the equation of any thread is my opinion.

 

[SingleMomMonica]

Catholic/Orthodox Unity…

There can be No union between a Lie and the Truth.

Until the Catholic Church rejects the Lies and embraces the fullness of revealed Truth without any addition or subtraction of that Truth There will be No Union.

People may consider this harsh and unChristian, but there is nothing more Christ~like than embracing Him (the Truth) Fully without compromise.

Consider it what you like, but Orthodoxy as a whole will Not unite with any Church that continues to maintain any non-orthodox teachings.

Our Church is full of martyrs from every generation who refused to compromise the Truth.

The Truth is so important we must likewise be ready to die for Him, the Truth, Jesus Christ.

 

[Marie5890]

Catholic/Orthodox Unity…

There can be No union between a Lie and the Truth.

Until the Catholic Church rejects the Lies and embraces the fullness of revealed Truth without any addition or subtraction of that Truth There will be No Union.

People may consider this harsh and unChristian, but there is nothing more Christ~like than embracing Him (the Truth) Fully without compromise.

Consider it what you like, but Orthodoxy as a whole will Not unite with any Church that continues to maintain any non-orthodox teachings.

Our Church is full of martyrs from every generation who refused to compromise the Truth.

The Truth is so important we must likewise be ready to die for Him, the Truth, Jesus Christ.

And as long as we all show forth the Love of Christ to all whom we come in contact with, the rest will take care of its self. It is His Truth even if we are never unified.

All of us who follow Him in good conscience will be asked if we Loved our fellow man as well and and purely as He did.

For that is the second great commandment after loving God first.

We must never, ever forget Christan love and Charity and we remember that best by keeping our eyes on Him…

 

[Deconi]

The problem is that not all popes have been holy men. Maybe the current pope is, but the past popes haven’t always been so.

Why would the east want to be under the authority of the pope when it was the authority of the pope that declared that eastern Catholics in the New world could not have married priests? It was a pope who said that all the eastern liturgies were inferior to the western liturgy because the western liturgy is that of Rome. The fact is that the eastern Catholics have been treated as second class citizens by the west for a long time. Our theology has been steped on and ignored as if it is meaningless. The real question is why would the Orthodox want to associate with the pope who has encouraged the subjugation of the east as second class citizens? It is only recently that the popes have begun to consider the east as holding some value.

What are these false historical events that you speak of?

Further it seems that you ascribe to the nonsense arguement that the east are simply proud and disobedient fools that was propagated in the west for a long time. We have no foundation for our arguements, we are just proud and disobedient. We should rather lay down and kiss the feet of the pope.

That’s rather strong language, Jimmy.

I guess if you’re going to adopt the position of ‘slave to master’ you’re going to be using obstinance as an underscore of your thoughts.

The position does not CALL for falling at the Pope’s feet and kissing them! It calls for the understanding of whether you would, if you recognise in him the person of Christ’s Vicar.

Look around the world today and examine where any of that mentality exists within Catholicism or what visual differrence one country has from another DUE to The Papacy? What do you imagine would be the change that would take effect in your country if East and West reunite under The Vicar of Christ?

Good Pope, Bad Pope, is a matter not subject of OUR judgement since The Master holds him accountable FIRST, among his brethren for ALL things pertaining to the protection and profession of His Gospel and feeding His flock. You see? ALL our faith is upon The Master; not on the Pope!

Many in history wanted to decline the position for those reasons…and I’m sure some ‘clamoured’ for it for their own visions and reasons. But the faith holds that The Holy Spirit guides The Church, and as history bears out thus far, even WITH ‘bad’ Popes, The Church has NOT taught error or spun into oblivion…which can only mean…Divine work!

 

[SingleMomMonica]

I know where I am. I am in a thread about Catholic/Orthodox Unity.

I have just stated that the Orthodox Church will not compromise Truth for unity. And our Church is full of martyrs who have been witnesses of that unto death.

Like for example St. Peter the Aleut who in 1816 in California was kidnapped and torchured by Roman Catholic monks as they cut off each of his fingers and toes joint by joint until his hands and feet were cut off and he bled to death. They torchured him trying to get him to compromise the Truth. The Catholic monks wanted him to renounce the Orthodox Faith and become a Catholic. He remained Faithful to the Truth, to Jesus Christ and His Orthodox Church.

St. Peter the Aleut knew where he was when he was kidnapped. He was surrounded by Catholics monks, but refused to compromise the Truth. He remained Faithful even though certainly the Catholic monks probably thought him to be disrespectful.

The Truth is the Truth No matter where you are.

 

[jimmy]

That’s rather strong language, Jimmy.

I guess if you’re going to adopt the position of ‘slave to master’ you’re going to be using obstinance as an underscore of your thoughts.

What was strong in what I said? Obstinacy is often the accusation thrown at the east.

The position does not CALL for falling at the Pope’s feet and kissing them! It calls for the understanding of whether you would, if you recognise in him the person of Christ’s Vicar.

Look around the world today and examine where any of that mentality exists within Catholicism or what visual differrence one country has from another DUE to The Papacy? What do you imagine would be the change that would take effect in your country if East and West reunite under The Vicar of Christ?

I live in the US so probably not much would change. But there has to be an agreement of what the relationship between the pope and the bishops is before there will be any union. There will be none if there is always the possibility that the pope could declare an eastern tradition unacceptable like was done with the married priesthood in the new world.

Good Pope, Bad Pope, is a matter not subject of OUR judgement since The Master holds him accountable FIRST, among his brethren for ALL things pertaining to the protection and profession of His Gospel and feeding His flock. You see? ALL our faith is upon The Master; not on the Pope!

On other words, our tradition doesn’t matter. What matters is what the pope says because he represents Christ.

 

[Deconi]

Catholic/Orthodox Unity…

There can be No union between a Lie and the Truth.

Until the Catholic Church rejects the Lies and embraces the fullness of revealed Truth without any addition or subtraction of that Truth There will be No Union.

People may consider this harsh and unChristian, but there is nothing more Christ~like than embracing Him (the Truth) Fully without compromise.

Consider it what you like, but Orthodoxy as a whole will Not unite with any Church that continues to maintain any non-orthodox teachings.

Our Church is full of martyrs from every generation who refused to compromise the Truth.

The Truth is so important we must likewise be ready to die for Him, the Truth, Jesus Christ.

It’s interesting you charge The Catholic Church with ‘embracing lies’ and IMAGINE yourself embracing …uhm…’‘Truth?’’

You are not speaking for The Orthodox Church it appears. You seem to be speaking from some imaginary spot different than the Orthodox Church!!

"full of martyrs??! ‘ready to die for Him’?..!!!
Lady, those claims belong to the histories of EVERY faith and philosophy!

When we reunite, will you jump to Islam?

 

[Marie5890]

I have just stated that the Orthodox Church will not compromise Truth for unity. And our Church is full of martyrs who have been witnesses of that unto death.

Monica, I have no doubt that you do realize the the EOC does not have the corner market when it comes to martyrs.

That particular comment is a weak statement of “proof”.

 

[brigantine]

I know where I am. I am in a thread about Catholic/Orthodox Unity.

I have just stated that the Orthodox Church will not compromise Truth for unity. And our Church is full of martyrs who have been witnesses of that unto death.

Like for example St. Peter the Aleut who in 1816 in California was kidnapped and torchured by Roman Catholic monks as they cut off each of his fingers and toes joint by joint until his hands and feet were cut off and he bled to death. They torchured him trying to get him to compromise the Truth. The Catholic monks wanted him to renounce the Orthodox Faith and become a Catholic. He remained Faithful to the Truth, to Jesus Christ and His Orthodox Church.

St. Peter the Aleut knew where he was when he was kidnapped. He was surrounded by Catholics monks, but refused to compromise the Truth. He remained Faithful even though certainly the Catholic monks probably thought him to be disrespectful.

The Truth is the Truth No matter where you are.

I have a question for you Monica, why do you post on a Roman Catholic forum? While I agree with a lot you have to say its the uncharitable way you say it that is an issue. There are other Orthodox posters (Mickey, and Hesychios to name just two) that say the same thing in a charitable way. It seems many of these post involve you and Josie arguing.

Its a RC forum so insulting them is not going to win converts or sympathizers if that’s your point. I know there are no decent Orthodox forums so we have to remember we are guests here.

 

[Bensalem]

His Broken Body: Understanding and Healing the Schism between the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Churches

“About the Author: Laurent Cleenewerck is a professor of theology and applied sciences for Euclid University Consortium. He is also a presbyter of the Ecumenical Patriachate of Constantinople, now serving in the Orthodox Church of America. He and his wife Irene reside in Northern California.”

5 Stars on Amazon.

Reader Review (emphases mine):

Perhaps only once in a generation something comes along that is so unique as to be a potential catalyst for history-making and world-changing events. His Broken Body - Understanding and Healing the Schism between Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Christians by Laurent A. Cleenewerck might just have that potential! At least, that will be the likely view of anyone who sincerely professes faith in Christ and believes that His Church is integral to their salvation but is saddened and disturbed by the visible disunity of those claiming ancient and apostolic Christian roots. Fr. Laurent (he is both an Orthodox Priest and Professor) has attempted to cut the Gordian Knot between Roman Catholics and Orthodox Christians, and it appears that he has at least partially succeeded in this brilliant and unique book.

His Broken Body may be the sui generis among books on this subject due to its novel approach. Because it attempts to provide “both sides of the story” in a comprehensive and detailed manner under one cover, it offers a unique contribution to this discussion. New light is shed on a multiplicity of concurrent (and competing) early church viewpoints and practices such as Eucharistic vs. Universal Ecclesiology and Petrene Succession in (every) bishop as well as the bishop of Rome. Then there is the fascinating concept of “The Church as Hologram.”

For many readers, seeing this material for the first time will seem like an epiphany. It was for me. Though not all the concepts covered are new, I know of no other source that addresses all of this in one place. I’ve had to dig for years through both Roman Catholic and Orthodox resources to even gain an inkling of what is now available in His Broken Body.

Both uncritical ecumenists and unyielding traditionalists will likely be surprised by things addressed in His Broken Body in such a balanced, truthful and faithful way.

Surprisingly, unlike many “theological-historical” books, His Broken Body is not boring or pedantic but a real page-turner. Fr. Laurent’s style is relaxed and almost conversational. Outstanding in both its directness and charity, it doesn’t get bogged down in obscure details but sticks to the point like a laser, all the while remaining irenic in its approach. In my humble opinion, it’s an example of “speaking the truth in love,” par excellence.

Make no mistake about it; its goal (though lofty and long-reaching) is progress towards unity. Nevertheless, it remains rigorous and does not succumb to wishy-washy theology in order to make its point.

Most of us are not anxious for another book addressing hypothetical and theoretical reasons why Roman Catholics and Orthodox Christians are still separated to this day but offers little in the way of suggestions for real progress toward healing the schism. This is not that kind of book. Nor is Fr. Laurent writing as an apologist, but rather as **someone with a critical mind who is more interested in elucidating the truth than defending a particular position. For this reason, he gets to the heart of the matter with unprecedented clarity and with practical suggestions that may, God willing, lead to genuine healing and unity through humility and a love for the Truth. **

For some of us the outcome may not seem to matter, but perhaps out of a love for the (whole) truth we might consider reading this book with an open mind. By doing so we may just find ourselves surprised by something both familiar and new because this book presents, perhaps for the first time, an image of the Church as it understood itself during the first millennium – with all its glory (and shame), in unity (and schism), and replete with concurrent differences and agreement.

Not everyone will agree with Fr. Laurent’s conclusions and perspectives, but **his analysis will be hard to fault and his obvious desire to move in a forward direction with concrete steps is worthy of admiration and emulation. **

His Broken Body deserves wide readership.

 

[Deconi]

I have a question for you Monica, why do you post on a Roman Catholic forum? While I agree with a lot you have to say its the uncharitable way you say it that is an issue. There are other Orthodox posters (Mickey, and Hesychios to name just two) that say the same thing in a charitable way. It seems many of these post involve you and Josie arguing.

Its a RC forum so insulting them is not going to win converts or sympathizers if that’s your point. I know there are no decent Orthodox forums so we have to remember we are guests here.

It’s not so much as ‘guest’…but rather as ‘seeker’ and ‘enquirer’ of Catholicism that forums as these exist.

“Monica” betrays herself as an anti-Catholic hiding within The Orthodox. There are many like her and, for mine, it’s fine if you were looking for further information to understand the view being opposed! Unfortunately, unlike St. Francis, she seeks to be understood, rather than to understand!

SingleMomMonica:

There can be No union between a Lie and the Truth.

Until the Catholic Church rejects the Lies and embraces the fullness of revealed Truth without any addition or subtraction of that Truth There will be No Union.

People may consider this harsh and unChristian, but there is nothing more Christ~like than embracing Him (the Truth) Fully without compromise.

Consider it what you like, but Orthodoxy as a whole will Not unite with any Church that continues to maintain any non-orthodox teachings.

Our Church is full of martyrs from every generation who refused to compromise the Truth.

The Truth is so important we must likewise be ready to die for Him, the Truth, Jesus Christ.

With this beauty she betrays her imaginary position and it is NOT that of The Orthodox, but a delusion from mish-mashing fact and fiction.

The Orthodox holds and maintains everything the Catholic professes, barring the furtherance of the faith through the illumination of doctrinal issues that have arisen prior and since the schism. In this, Rome has done much for questions have been posed of Her since the schism. Outside of that, we are BOTH Catholic. We hold Apostolic Succession together and do not throw ‘lies’ at each other! We dispute and argue about theological thought on matters ecclestial and profound for God’s children.

Only fools level charges of human failings against each other for we both understand the sinners we are, and BOTH churches know they do not, have not and CANNOT sanction sinful acts by the ‘faithful’…therefore, we do not question the validity of the other, because of the acts of some of the souls we ‘net’ for Our Lord. He will do the separating in His own time.

For a recent example, US (and Allied) soldiers committed atrocities during the Gulfs and Vietnam conflicts. Does the Nation warrant wholesale charges and/or citizens get to cede their rights and citizenship…go to another country and hurl accusations at the U.S?? I’m sure some have!..but who truly remains American? The ‘righteous’ one who denies their membership and left, or the ones who remain because they understood the failing of some, is not the actual ‘truth’ or actions sanctioned by the U.S?? The sad truth is, sometimes, the one who left delude themself into being the true American!

Yeah! If you’re an ignorant idiot!!

 

[trophybearer]

It’s not so much as ‘guest’…but rather as ‘seeker’ and ‘enquirer’ of Catholicism that forums as these exist.

“Monica” betrays herself as an anti-Catholic hiding within The Orthodox. There are many like her and, for mine, it’s fine if you were looking for further information to understand the view being opposed! Unfortunately, unlike St. Francis, she seeks to be understood, rather than to understand!

With this beauty she betrays her imaginary position and it is NOT that of The Orthodox, but a delusion from mish-mashing fact and fiction.

The Orthodox holds and maintains everything the Catholic professes, barring the furtherance of the faith through the illumination of doctrinal issues that have arisen prior and since the schism. In this, Rome has done much for questions have been posed of Her since the schism. Outside of that, we are BOTH Catholic. We hold Apostolic Succession together and do not throw ‘lies’ at each other! We dispute and argue about theological thought on matters ecclestial and profound for God’s children.

Only fools level charges of human failings against each other for we both understand the sinners we are, and BOTH churches know they do not, have not and CANNOT sanction sinful acts by the ‘faithful’…therefore, we do not question the validity of the other, because of the acts of some of the souls we ‘net’ for Our Lord. He will do the separating in His own time.

For a recent example, US (and Allied) soldiers committed atrocities during the Gulfs and Vietnam conflicts. Does the Nation warrant wholesale charges and/or citizens get to cede their rights and citizenship…go to another country and hurl accusations at the U.S?? I’m sure some have!..but who truly remains American? The ‘righteous’ one who denies their membership and left, or the ones who remain because they understood the failing of some, is not the actual ‘truth’ or actions sanctioned by the U.S?? The sad truth is, sometimes, the one who left delude themself into being the true American!

Yeah! If you’re an ignorant idiot!!

Wow. Calling someone an “ignorant idiot”. How mature/Christian of you. A bit of brotherly love here- you’re making yourself look bad.

 

[Nine_Two]

To sort of repeat what I said before, this thread stands as testament to why I don’t think there will be reunion in my lifetime. Even if we can get past all the theological issues and somehow come to an agreement where our doctrine grossely contradicts, the spirits of the people will prevent any quick reunion.

I see Deconi arguing as though we’d simply become Eastern Catholics and everything else would be the same, that it is we who would submit to one whom even some moderates look on as a Heresiarch.

Since coming to this forum I have gained considerable respect for and understanding of the Catholic possition, while I’ve been utterly confounded by the Eastern Catholic and lost significant respect for them, and yet even so I hold them in higher regard than most Orthodox. If there is to be reunion, we will not become as them, we will not become “sui juis” branches of a Latin church, and as long as the majority of Catholics look on “reunion” in that sense, there is no hope of reunion.

 

[josie_L]

I have a question for you Monica, why do you post on a Roman Catholic forum? While I agree with a lot you have to say its the uncharitable way you say it that is an issue. There are other Orthodox posters (Mickey, and Hesychios to name just two) that say the same thing in a charitable way. **It seems many of these post involve you and Josie arguing. **

Its a RC forum so insulting them is not going to win converts or sympathizers if that’s your point. I know there are no decent Orthodox forums so we have to remember we are guests here.

She’s not arguing but attacking.

 

[Deconi]

Wow. Calling someone an “ignorant idiot”. How mature/Christian of you. A bit of brotherly love here- you’re making yourself look bad.

How I look isn’t worth the effort, nor care, but thank you for being…uhm…sharp!

To sort of repeat what I said before, this thread stands as testament to why I don’t think there will be reunion in my lifetime. Even if we can get past all the theological issues and somehow come to an agreement where our doctrine grossely contradicts,** the spirits of the people will prevent any quick reunion.**

I see Deconi arguing as though we’d simply become Eastern Catholics and everything else would be the same, that it is we who would submit to one whom even some moderates look on as a Heresiarch.

Since coming to this forum I have gained considerable respect for and understanding of the Catholic possition, while I’ve been utterly confounded by the Eastern Catholic and lost significant respect for them, and yet even so I hold them in higher regard than most Orthodox. If there is to be reunion, we will not become as them, we will not become “sui juis” branches of a Latin church, and as long as the majority of Catholics look on “reunion” in that sense, there is no hope of reunion.

Here’s the problem, underlined above;

Unity should not be RELIANT on the masses! Truth is not a numbers game! It is either, ‘true’, or it isn’t.

If Catholics were to vote on contraception or divorce, with the understanding that The Church would CHANGE Her stand on these matters by popular vote, the result would probably surprise the Catholics!..especially the issue of divorce! Many other ‘issues’ come to mind, if that were the case.

I wouldn’t see Orthodox as Eastern ANYTHING! I’m in the Pacific. Do you see us as “Tropical” Catholics?

Bishops of the Pacific Rim and ANZAC have various conferences and councils of their own, without Rome. We have traditions that date back to the Dark Ages and BEFORE time! Some, we retain and others we’ve discarded as useless in the light of Christianity!

The Catholic UNIQUENESS, is that whatever doctrine or practice the bishops come up with for this part of the world, even in unanimity, they inform Rome for ratification. In this way we as Catholics know that we are in accordance with the rest of Catholicism…not operating in a Catholic vacuumn of our own!

That is how I know, the Catholics in the East are in accordance with Catholicism as I understand her! That is how I will ‘see’ post-Orthodoxy.

With much ado, in some cases, we have forsaken some of our ‘traditions’ for they mean naught in comparison to the unity with Christ!