Catholic parent and unbaptized child?

[kedera]

Okay, I’m not entirely sure this goes here but I need some direction to some possible resources…there is a girl that I work with, shes about 21 years old. Today she noticed my St. Therese medal and said…“I didn’t know you were Catholic.” taking a rather abrupt tone. So I said “I am”. She said…“Oh”. So I am waiting for her reason for pointing all of this out and she goes on to say…“Well the Catholic Church says I am a bastard because my mom is Catholic and my dad isn’t.” I asked her if she was baptized when she was a baby and she said “No, my mother wanted me to make a decision for myself, so the Catholic Church says, I’m a bastard.” I had NO IDEA how to respond to this, other than thinking to myself “wow she’s a little mad”. It was obvious that she has some animosity towards the church, and it was also obvious that this is what she had been told by someone else who probably has animosity towards the church. I know this is not accurate, but I would like to understand where that idea came from and where there is some info other than the CCC. So maybe if the issue comes up again, I can respond in a more effective and charitable way . Thanks ahead of time!

 

[FightingFat]

She’s hurt. Handle with love! I don’t think the Church would say anything like that, it doesn’t make judgements about people, just advises the best course of action to be happy!

 

[kedera]

I just would like to have some sort of information about HOW to respond to that. I hate being caught off guard with things like that. What would the church say?

 

[1ke]

I just would like to have some sort of information about HOW to respond to that. I hate being caught off guard with things like that. What would the church say?

I think the first step is to find out what she means by “the Church thinks I’m a bastard”, who told her that, and why.

It seems like she’s mixing several things: being a child in a mixed marriage and being unbaptized. We also don’t know if her parents are in an invalid marriage-- outside the church for example.

I’m not sure what she thinks “being a bastard” means or what she’s basing it on.

I’d start by asking her what she means and go from there.

 

[als10062008]

Someone I worked with had a divorce from his wife. Somewhere he was told that because he was divorced he was excommunicated from the church and couldn’t come back. He won’t listen to anyone because he’s got it in his head that the CC has excommunicated him forever. He goes to a Protestant church now but says he’s still not completely sure he’ll go to heaven.

Point of the story is that it’s tough correcting the claims and falsehoods people cling to about the Catholic Church. I’d find out what she means. From the church’s POV, I’d reckon she’d be an unbaptized person and considered whatever faith she practices. Perhaps ask if she ever talked to a priest about it or considered RCIA…

 

[1ke]

Someone I worked with had a divorce from his wife. Somewhere he was told that because he was divorced he was excommunicated from the church and couldn’t come back. He won’t listen to anyone because he’s got it in his head that the CC has excommunicated him forever. He goes to a Protestant church now but says he’s still not completely sure he’ll go to heaven.

Point of the story is that it’s tough correcting the claims and falsehoods people cling to about the Catholic Church. I’d find out what she means. From the church’s POV, I’d reckon she’d be an unbaptized person and considered whatever faith she practices. Perhaps ask if she ever talked to a priest about it or considered RCIA…

The code of canon law prior to 1983 did explicitly excommunicate a Catholic who **divorced and remarried **without a decree of nullity.

The new code does not include excommunication for this offense-- they of course cannot receive the Sacraments but are not excommunicated.

So, there may be confusion based on that… not that he will listen… but maybe that’s how he got the idea. You don’t mention that he is remarried outside the Church or when this happened.

 

[kedera]

I think the first step is to find out what she means by “the Church thinks I’m a bastard”, who told her that, and why.

It seems like she’s mixing several things: being a child in a mixed marriage and being unbaptized. We also don’t know if her parents are in an invalid marriage-- outside the church for example.

I’m not sure what she thinks “being a bastard” means or what she’s basing it on.

I’d start by asking her what she means and go from there.

I’m pretty sure that her parents were not married in the Church. Maybe she’s saying that the Church doesn’t recognize her parents as being married, somehow making her illegitimate. I really don’t think she understands any more than what she has been told, probably by her parents. I know that her understanding, or lack of it is not accurate. And her feelings about it are based on just that. I just figured that the only thing that the church would have to say about it is that her mother was responsible for having her baptised, and she wasn’t.

 

[Stylteralmaldo]

kedera:

I just would like to have some sort of information about HOW to respond to that. I hate being caught off guard with things like that. What would the church say?

Hope this helps:
Catechism of the Catholic Church:

**Mixed marriages and disparity of cult **
**1633 **In many countries the situation of a mixed marriage (marriage between a Catholic and a baptized non-Catholic) often arises. It requires particular attention on the part of couples and their pastors. A case of marriage with disparity of cult (between a Catholic and a nonbaptized person) requires even greater circumspection.
**1634 **Difference of confession between the spouses does not constitute an insurmountable obstacle for marriage, when they succeed in placing in common what they have received from their respective communities, and learn from each other the way in which each lives in fidelity to Christ. But the difficulties of mixed marriages must not be underestimated. They arise from the fact that the separation of Christians has not yet been overcome. The spouses risk experiencing the tragedy of Christian disunity even in the heart of their own home. Disparity of cult can further aggravate these difficulties. Differences about faith and the very notion of marriage, but also different religious mentalities, can become sources of tension in marriage, especially as regards the education of children. The temptation to religious indifference can then arise.
**1635 **According to the law in force in the Latin Church, a mixed marriage needs for liceity the express permission of ecclesiastical authority.135 In case of disparity of cult an express dispensation from this impediment is required for the validity of the marriage.136 This permission or dispensation presupposes that both parties know and do not exclude the essential ends and properties of marriage; and furthermore that the Catholic party confirms the obligations, which have been made known to the non-Catholic party, of preserving his or her own faith and ensuring the baptism and education of the children in the Catholic Church.137
**1636 **Through ecumenical dialogue Christian communities in many regions have been able to put into effect a common pastoral practice for mixed marriages. Its task is to help such couples live out their particular situation in the light of faith, overcome the tensions between the couple’s obligations to each other and towards their ecclesial communities, and encourage the flowering of what is common to them in faith and respect for what separates them.
**1637 **In marriages with disparity of cult the Catholic spouse has a particular task: "For the unbelieving husband is consecrated through his wife, and the unbelieving wife is consecrated through her husband."138 It is a great joy for the Christian spouse and for the Church if this “consecration” should lead to the free conversion of the other spouse to the Christian faith.139 Sincere married love, the humble and patient practice of the family virtues, and perseverance in prayer can prepare the non-believing spouse to accept the grace of conversion.

Catechism of the Catholic Church:

VI. THE NECESSITY OF BAPTISM
1257 The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation.59 He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them.60 Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament.61 The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are “reborn of water and the Spirit.” God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.
1258 The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of blood, like the desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament.
1259 For *catechumens *who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament.
1260 "Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery."62 Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.
1261 As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus’ tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,"63 allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church’s call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.

Source:
vatican.va/archive/catechism/ccc_toc.htm

 

[1ke]

I’m pretty sure that her parents were not married in the Church. Maybe she’s saying that the Church doesn’t recognize her parents as being married, somehow making her illegitimate.

Well, if her parents are in an **invalid **marriage then yes, she is technically illegitimate from a canon law standpoint. She would be legitimated if her parents were to ever convalidate their marriage.

Can. 1137 The children conceived or born of a** valid or putative marriage **are legitimate.

Can. 1138 §1. The father is he whom a lawful marriage indicates unless clear evidence proves the contrary.

§2. Children born at least 180 days after the day when the marriage was celebrated or within 300 days from the day of the dissolution of conjugal life are presumed to be legitimate.

Can. 1139 Illegitimate children are legitimated by the subsequent valid or putative marriage of their parents or by a rescript of the Holy See.

Can. 1140 As regards canonical effects, legitimated children are equal in all things to legitimate ones unless the law has expressly provided otherwise.

That said, this in NO WAY bars her from baptism or full life in the Church. Nor does it mean she is “sinful” or any such thing.

It’s a legal term-- one which has little to no meaning in the new code of canon law. In the old code of canon law, illegitimacy barred a person from Ordination and certain levels in religious orders… unless they were dispensed. But, there are NO canonical consequences anymore at all.

I read an article in This Rock that speculates that the canon in the new code related to legitimacy remain there because some nations rely on those codes as they relate to determining support of the child-- like maybe countries that have a national church and maybe canon law and civil law are more intertwined… not sure since that is not the case in the US.

 

[teachccd]

So does the Church refer to all children of Jews, Muslims and other religious affiliations as bastards? HMMM…

Just as we would see their faiths as illegitimate, we still see people made in the image and likeness of God. The Church does not label people as bastards but the Church does recognize the importance of following Christ even at the expense of persecution. Christ died for all people even those who choose to follow a different way…I’m not sure that this helps but thank you for letting me share…teachccd

 

[Phemie]

So does the Church refer to all children of Jews, Muslims and other religious affiliations as bastards? HMMM…

Not at all, since their marriages are presumed valid. Remember, they are not bound by the rules of the Catholic Church as is the mother of the gal in question.

 

[1ke]

The Church does not label people as bastards

This is true. The Church does not use such a term. However, the Church does have canon related to the legitimacy of birth-- and that is based on the existence and validity of a marriage between the parents.

 

[teachccd]

Not at all, since their marriages are presumed valid. Remember, they are not bound by the rules of the Catholic Church as is the mother of the gal in question.

You are presuming that the mother of this girl is a practicing Catholic. Even if her mother is a baptized Catholic, she may not see that she is bound by the rules of the Church which is made obvious by the choice of not having her daughter baptized. While canon law is specific here, pastoral considerations are in order when addressing this with her. I doubt that quoting canon law will have her slap hand to forehead and exclaim, “Well thanks for clearing that up”!! If she feels that the Church has a label for something that she had no control over then we need to start with how we see Christ and how Christ sees her…God Bless teachccd

 

[teachccd]

This is true. The Church does not use such a term. However, the Church does have canon related to the legitimacy of birth-- and that is based on the existence and validity of a marriage between the parents.

Again, for her to believe that the Church labels her as a bastard because of something that she had no control over is devastating and needs considerable pastoral guidance. To quote her canon law is for sure going to have her running to the hills…teachccd

 

[1ke]

Again, for her to believe that the Church labels her as a bastard because of something that she had no control over is devastating and needs considerable pastoral guidance. To quote her canon law is for sure going to have her running to the hills…teachccd

I did not suggest to “quote canon law” to her. I was giving the OP background.

This is territory where the OP needs to tread lightly. Certainly the OP can encourage her to consider that God loves her no matter what actions her parents have taken or not taken.

But ultimately, if her parents are in an invalid marriage then the facts are facts regarding what the church “technically” does declare regarding her birth-- the OP cannot **lie **about it. Perhaps she should not discuss the matter further if this would hurt the woman more. It’s something I probably would NOT probe any further, but rather focus on God’s love for her.

 

[teachccd]

I did not suggest to “quote canon law” to her. I was giving the OP background.

This is territory where the OP needs to tread lightly. Certainly the OP can encourage her to consider that God loves her no matter what actions her parents have taken or not taken.

But ultimately, if her parents are in an invalid marriage then the facts are facts regarding what the church “technically” does declare regarding her birth-- the OP cannot **lie **about it. Perhaps she should not discuss the matter further if this would hurt the woman more. It’s something I probably would NOT probe any further, but rather focus on God’s love for her.

very well stated…teachccd

 

[kedera]

I agree, I would rather not have to face resopnding to this girl on this issue again. I can see how she takes it personally, and how it’s hurtful. It The info you guys have posted about canon law is helpful, and how “legitimacy” is more of a legal term on the situation, not a label. I wish things were different for her family . Her parents probably have hard feelings towards the Church for whatever reason and they have sort of passed that on.

I only came into full communion with the Church this past Easter, so I am still learning. Part of that learning is hearing about people who have “issues” with the Church. It’s important for me to understand the truth, so I have to ask questions about these things. Thanks so much for your responses.