Catholic Polygamy

[twopekinguys]

What do you mean it was never taught in the early church?

"Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I do. But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion." (1 Cor 7:8-9)

Paul prefered celibacy for himself and those who accompanied him on his mission. He said they should marry “if they cannot control themselves”.

Cha Ching

 

[JustaServant]

Talk about the tea pot calling the kettle black.

This was just the ones that were sexually active during this time. This is not to say those that murdered to gain power, who bought their way into power, etc.

I am not judging the church on these men.

 

[JustaServant]

There is so much caricaturizing in that post one hardly knows where to begin.

 

[Fatboys]

Harris’ description concurs with that of David Whitmer, another one of the three witnesses whose testimony appears at the front of the Book of Mormon. Whitmer details exactly how the stone produced the English interpretation. On page 12 of his book An Address to All Believers in Christ, Whitmer wrote,

"I will now give you a description of the manner in which the Book of Mormon was translated. Joseph Smith would put the seer stone into a hat, and put his face in the hat, drawing it closely around his face to exclude the light; and in the darkness the spiritual light would shine. A piece of something resembling parchment would appear, and under it was the interpretation in English. Brother Joseph would read off the English to Oliver Cowdery, who was his principal scribe, and when it was written down and repeated to brother Joseph to see if it was correct, then it would disappear, and another character with the interpretation would appear. Thus the Book of Mormon was translated by the gift and power of God, and not by any power of man."

Seems like a first hand account to me. Whitmer was/is considered a good witness to the BoM.

Who is wrong? Whitmer, who was there, or mormon leadership of today saying it is just speculation?

There are more, like his wife Emma

Robert N. Hullinger, in his book: Joseph Smith’s Response to Skepticism, cites a personal interview Emma Smith-Bidamon gave to a committee of the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in 1879. He notes on pages 9-10: “Smith’s wife Emma supported Harris’s and Whitmer’s versions of the story in recalling that her husband buried his face in his hat while she was serving as his scribe.”

They were not a witness to the process. It does not matter if he did put his head in a hat, but no ones for sure. Where ever they got the information it was not first hand. As I said there were only two who actually witnessed the process. That was Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery. If either or them had stated this, then we would know for sure.

 

[Fatboys]

What do you mean it was never taught in the early church?

"Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I do. But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion." (1 Cor 7:8-9)

Paul prefered celibacy for himself and those who accompanied him on his mission. He said they should marry “if they cannot control themselves”.

Paul was married

 

[Fatboys]

Following that logic, It is hard to think that God would lie, and abandon his church after he said he wouldn’t.

It is hard to think that the very first law God gave to man was to muiltiply and replenish the earth only for God to change that law so man could disipline himself away from the beautiful intimacy one can have with a person the love. We are here so our spirit can over come the weakness of the mortal body. To control our thoughts, appetities, and passions. Wouldn’t a person have more disipline if they could control these things while being in the world but not of the world. If a person wants to have control over these things, denying himself these things teaches what. One has to control these things while living through them. This was the way God said it should be. And you said most of the apostles were not married. Even if there was only one, would he be in a better position or a worse.
If man could be taught to love as women love, then men would be on a higher plane. It is the nature of women to be more spiritual and emotionally tied to the spirit. Man has to learn these things. If man could learn to control their thoughts and passions, then we could become more than what we are. There are of course things men control that women do not, and so when put together we balance each other and become one, just as God and Christ are one. But this takes disipline. More so than cutting of the learning it takes to disipline from this point.

 

[Fatboys]

There is so much caricaturizing in that post one hardly knows where to begin.

Having done some research on original sin, I understand that Augustine taught that man is has inherited sin. That man is born in sin, and can do no good on his own. Why would God create us like this? Why would God allow man to continue to do evil?

 

[twopekinguys]

They were not a witness to the process. It does not matter if he did put his head in a hat, but no ones for sure. Where ever they got the information it was not first hand. As I said there were only two who actually witnessed the process. That was Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery. If either or them had stated this, then we would know for sure.

Joseph Knight, Sr., an early member of the Church and a close friend of Joseph Smith, wrote the following in a document on file in the LDS Church archives:

"Now the way he translated was he put the urim and thummim into his hat and darkened his eyes then he would take a sentence and it would appear in bright roman letters then he would tell the writer and he would write it then that would go away the next sentence would come and so on. But if it was not spelt rite it would not go away till it was rite, so we see it was marvelous. Thus was the hol [whole] translated." (spelling preserved from original)

Underlining mine. Did you happen to see the part where this is from the lds church archives? Who’s right? You, or them?

How about this one?

Isaac Hale, the father of Emma Hale Smith, stated in an 1834 affidavit:

"The manner in which he pretended to read and interpret, was the same as when he looked for the money-diggers, with a stone in his hat, and his hat over his face, while the Book of Plates were at the same time hid in the woods."

Did you notice the word “pretended”?

Here is another one.

William Smith

In volume two of “A New Witness for Christ in America,” LDS writer Francis Kirkham notes that Joseph Smith’s brother William also confirmed the use of the hat and seer stone. His account is also similar to the accounts given by Harris and Whitmer although he refers to the seer stone as the “Urim and Thummim.” He stated, “The manner in which this was done was by looking into the Urim and Thummim, which was placed in a hat to exclude the light, (the plates lying near by covered up), and reading off the translation, which appeared in the stone by the power of God” (2:417).

I hope you noticed the sources. lds archives, lds writer, obviously not anti mormon sources. Quite the contrary.

So, according to these, there are more witnesses to the translation process than you thought.

 

[twopekinguys]

In an earlier post, you tried to assert that the Catholic Church’s view, and mainstream protestant view of the Trinity was wrong.

We also talked about the changes to the book of mormon. In all of your studying, did you know that original 1830 version is quite different than todays?

1830 version

1 Nephi 3, p. 25* And he said unto me, Behold, the virgin whom thou seest is the mother of God, after the manner of the flesh

Today’s version

1 Nephi 11:18 And he said unto me, Behold, the virgin whom thou seest is the mother of the Son of God.

So, the book of mormon, kind of had a huge doctrinal shift there wouldn’t you say? Going from the traditional view to something totally different.

This is one of my favorites.

1830 version

Alma 15, p. 303 yea, I know that he alloteth unto men , yea, decreeth unto them decrees which are unalterable, according to their wills

Current version

Alma 29:4yea, I know that he alloteth unto men, according to their wills.

So, we have gone from not changing God’s decrees, to allowing men to change it according to their own will.

These aren’t typos and punctuation problems.

Underlining mine

 

[vsedriver]

Sorry about the confusion. Twopekinguy wrote this and I did not get quotes around it. Growing up was told that Joseph Smith used the interpreters found with the Gold plates. When I got into apologetics many years ago is when I read that some believed that much of the Book of Mormon was translated through a seer stone. It was used as the same purpose as the other interpreters, but really no one knows exactly if it was used or not. Joseph Smith never said it was, but only those who had never saw how it was done and just speculated as to the process. Joseph Smith said that it was done through what is now called the Urim and Thummin, which were bibical interpreters.

  If someone says they know, they are just guessing

so why did these ‘interpreters’ use Elizabethan English instead of 19th C. American English for their translation?

 

[pablope]

Paul was married

It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I do. But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion." (1 Cor 7:8-9)

It has been known for two millenia that Paul was celibate…as what he says in that passage in Corintians…so how do you come to the conclusion he is married?

 

[vsedriver]

Jesus taught it.

Matt. 19:

10 The disciples said to him, ‘If that is how things are between husband and wife, it is advisable not to marry.’
11 But he replied, ‘It is not everyone who can accept what I have said, but only those to whom it is granted.
12 There are eunuchs born so from their mother’s womb, there are eunuchs made so by human agency and there are eunuchs who have made themselves so for the sake of the kingdom of Heaven. Let anyone accept this who can.’

So did St. Paul.

1 Cor.
7 I should still like everyone to be as I am myself; but everyone has his own gift from God, one this kind and the next something different.
8 To the unmarried and to widows I say: it is good for them to stay as they are, like me.

Is that ‘early’ enough for you?

These early church fathers are a little later:

St. John Chrysostom, A.D. 392: “That virginity is good I do agree. But that it is even better than marriage, this I do confess. And if you wish, I will add that it is as much better than marriage as Heaven is better than Earth, as much better as angels are better than men.” (The Faith of the Early Fathers, Vol. 2: 1116)

St. Cyril of Jerusalem, A.D. 350: “While you maintain perfect chastity, do not be puffed up in vain conceit against those who walk a humbler path in matrimony…. Because you have a possession of gold, do not on that account hold the silver in contempt.” (The Faith of the Early Fathers, Vol. 1: 818c)

 

[vsedriver]

Paul was married

maybe yes, maybe no. But Paul was single and celibate when he began his ministry.

 

[vsedriver]

Having done some research on original sin, I understand that Augustine taught that man is has inherited sin. That man is born in sin, and can do no good on his own. Why would God create us like this? Why would God allow man to continue to do evil?

God did not create us that way. But God gave Adam and Eve free will and when they chose to sin they left an indelible mark on all humanity.

we continue to have free will and are free to chose to do evil or to do good.

 

[Janderich]

so why did these ‘interpreters’ use Elizabethan English instead of 19th C. American English for their translation?

What a poor reason to disbelieve the BofM. If God chooses to reveal words in 19th century English, Elizabethan ,or some other form, he may do so. In an effort to further this false crticism, some try to claim that the reason Joseph wanted to match the KJV was to make the BofM appear more authentic. That is simply guess work based on personal bias.

 

[crazzeto]

I think the fact that this was decreed by the parliment and Nurenburg should tell you all you need to know. This is not authentic catholic teaching, it is an errant decission by a secular government.

 

[Stephen168]

Paul was married

Not during his ministry and he was not one of the twelve

 

[Porknpie]

What a poor reason to disbelieve the BofM. If God chooses to reveal words in 19th century English, Elizabethan ,or some other form, he may do so. In an effort to further this false crticism, **some try to claim that the reason Joseph wanted to match the KJV was to make the BofM appear more authentic. **That is simply guess work based on personal bias.

If that was the only criticism of the BoM then your point would be valid.

Should this thread now be closed in the matter of LDS believing in Catholic polygamy or are there still doubts?

 

[rinnie]

Well not everyone on earth believes in the Son of God. Or others who do, might not agree with your church’s or another faith’s interpretation of Scripture. But in Matt 19 when He answered a question of the Pharisees, He spoke of man and woman. But then in the same chapter when responding to His disciples, Jesus said not everyone can accept this, accept it who can. The Pharisees or disciples had not asked about polygamy or for that matter whether SS marriage was always outside the traditional marriage covenant. On the latter Jesus said very little. The Apostle Paul had some things to say. Including that people should have relations which come natural to them.

Matt, What about the scriputure where it is said that Moses allowed divorce, but THEN JESUS said he only did it because they were hard of heart, But then what about when JESUS said those who divorce are commiting adultery?

 

[rinnie]

maybe yes, maybe no. But Paul was single and celibate when he began his ministry.

Lets add this also if I may, The RC Rite does not permit marriage. That is only a dicipline of the Roman Rite order,

Anotherwards that is what GOD himself asked of the Roman Catholic Priests and they accepted that call.