Catholic Practices and Non-Catholics

[EVANGELION]

Hi, is it okay for a non-Catholics to make use of Catholic sacramentals or pray to the saints? Or would that be an insult? Are Protestant sects a legitimate form of Christianity? Are the Anglican churches?

What is the proper protocol for reverencing a Catholic church?

Also, can Catholic medals of saints and Jesus Christ or angels be worn by non-Catholics? Or is this insulting?

 

[LilyM]

Of course it’s fine to make use of Catholic sacramentals and prayer practices - the more the merrier! But not the sacramENTS - non-Catholics can’t present themselves for Communion in our churches, for example.

‘Legitimate’ form of Christianity? Well, we don’t believe that all Protestants automatically go to Hell, or anything like that, if that’s what you mean. Although we DO believe that the sacraments of the Catholic (and Orthodox) churches offer unique and especially helpful means towards salvation, not that they guarantee it. And that Catholic teaching offers the fullest possible truth (and remember Christ promised to lead the Apostles, and through them His church, into ALL truth).

We do believe that Protestant sects, in as much as they possess many of the essential truths of salvation, aren’t illegitimate. Of course the more out-there belief-wise a sect is, eg Seventh Day Adventists or Mormons, the less legitimacy it possesses.

Anglicans tend to share most of the essential Christian truths, so would rate fairly high in the legitimacy stakes, the more ‘High Church’ your beliefs the better.

Proper form of reverence in a Catholic church? Firstly you might see a bowl or stoop containing holy water near the door as you enter - feel free to dip your hand in and make the sign of the cross with it, it’s a sacramental.

Then look around - you may see a box- or container-type (either metal or covered in fabric) object with a light burning near it (usually red) somewhere in the Church. Most often front and centre behind the altar or to one side of it.

This is called the Tabernacle, which contains the reserved Eucharistic bread. Since we believe in the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist, which continues even after reception by the faithful of Communion, if you can see the Tabernacle it you should genuflect (down on one knee and then up again) in its direction.

If you can’t see it, just make a reverent bow towards the altar.

In terms of other behaviour, just observe the common courtesies. No loud talking, turn the cellphone off, try not to take pictures and stuff.

Don’t go into the sanctuary - the area directly around the altar, usually separated visibly from the rest of the Church by stairs or rail or something. It’s reserved only for the priest and those assisting him.

If a Mass is going on, take your cue from the people around you - stand when they stand, sit when they sit, kneel when they kneel. For this reason it’s best not to sit near the front.

Feel free to join in any of the prayers and hymns you want, if you know them (I’ve attended an Anglican Mass, fairly high-church, the prayers were very similar to Catholic Mass). But don’t interrupt the priest, so none of the Evangelical ‘Amen-ing’ and ‘Alleluia-ing’.

Be aware that the Lord’s Prayer for Catholics DOESN’T include the words ‘for thine is the kingdom, the power and the glory’ (the most obvious way to spot a non-Catholic is when they launch into this ), although they are included in the words of the Mass at a later point.

 

[puzzleannie]

Hi, is it okay for a non-Catholics to make use of Catholic sacramentals or pray to the saints? Or would that be an insult? Are Protestant sects a legitimate form of Christianity? Are the Anglican churches?

What is the proper protocol for reverencing a Catholic church?

Also, can Catholic medals of saints and Jesus Christ or angels be worn by non-Catholics? Or is this insulting?

yes all those validly baptized are Christians, which includes Anglicans and most Protestant bodies (not all non-Catholic Christian denominations believe in the necessity of baptism).

any believer may use sacramentals or pay to the saints, the only insult would be to one’s own denomination if they don’t believe in the efficacy of the practice, Catholics would not be insulted.

When entering a Catholic church we genuflect to the tabernacle because we believe Jesus resides there under the form of the consecrated host, the Blessed Sacrament. If the tabernacle is not in view, we bow to the altar of sacrifice. You may stand, sit or kneel as the congregation does during the services you attend, or if you wish you may sit. The only thing you cannot do, of course, is receive holy communion, since that is a sign of unity which sadly does not yet exist among all Christians.

 

[MarieVeronica]

My dad, who was a Christian… but not a Catholic… had a deep respect for the Blessed Mother. For as long as I could remember, he wore an Immaculate Heart medal. He also carved many intricate little statues of Our Lady, out of wood.

I still treasure one of them, to this day… and had it blessed by our Pastor.

 

[EVANGELION]

Of course it’s fine to make use of Catholic sacramentals and prayer practices - the more the merrier! But not the sacramENTS - non-Catholics can’t present themselves for Communion in our churches, for example.

Yes, I would never approach a Catholic altar or recieve a Sacrament since I know that is reserved for Catholics in good-standing with the Church. I know alot about the history of Western religion (and by default, the venerable Catholic Church) but very little about protocol.

‘Legitimate’ form of Christianity? Well, we don’t believe that all Protestants automatically go to Hell, or anything like that, if that’s what you mean. Although we DO believe that the sacraments of the Catholic (and Orthodox) churches offer unique and especially helpful means towards salvation, not that they guarantee it. And that Catholic teaching offers the fullest possible truth (and remember Christ promised to lead the Apostles, and through them His church, into ALL truth).

So when and who invented the position that it was okay to invent doctrine apart from the Church? Were there others before Luther and Calvin and Knox.

We do believe that Protestant sects, in as much as they possess many of the essential truths of salvation, aren’t illegitimate. Of course the more out-there belief-wise a sect is, eg Seventh Day Adventists or Mormons, the less legitimacy it possesses.

So it’s okay to attend a Protestant sect? Instead of a Catholic Mass?

Anglicans tend to share most of the essential Christian truths, so would rate fairly high in the legitimacy stakes, the more ‘High Church’ your beliefs the better.

Are there some Anglicans whose bishops and priests are ligitimate? Why did the Protestants get rid of five of the Sacraments?

Then look around - you may see a box- or container-type (either metal or covered in fabric) object with a light burning near it (usually red) somewhere in the Church. Most often front and centre behind the altar or to one side of it.

Actually, the first time I came into contact with the venerable Catholic Faith was when we took a tour of an historic Cathedral. I saw a gold cylinder topped with a Cross and and PX looking symbol on it. Is that what you mean by Tabernacle? It was in the crypt part under the cathedral. I have to say the Catholic religion is a beautiful one, and I like reading the stories of the Councils and their bouts with heresy. It’s very interesting reading.

This is called the Tabernacle, which contains the reserved Eucharistic bread. Since we believe in the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist, which continues even after reception by the faithful of Communion, if you can see the Tabernacle it you should genuflect (down on one knee and then up again) in its direction.

So Jesus Christ is in the communion Bread? Is this in a mystical way or you’re talking of symbolism?

If you can’t see it, just make a reverent bow towards the altar.

Had I known, I would’ve when I saw that golden cylinder.

Don’t go into the sanctuary - the area directly around the altar, usually separated visibly from the rest of the Church by stairs or rail or something. It’s reserved only for the priest and those assisting him.

Is it sacrilege to touch the altar? Only a priest could touch it?

 

[LilyM]

So when and who invented the position that it was okay to invent doctrine apart from the Church? Were there others before Luther and Calvin and Knox.

Well, there has always been a certain amount of sects and factions from day one. Remember in Acts the ‘Judaisers’ (those who thought Gentile Christians should be circumcised and obey the Jewish law?). Or the groups Paul describes as saying ‘I belong to Apollos’ or ‘I belong to Cephas’?

So it’s okay to attend a Protestant sect? Instead of a Catholic Mass?

Not for a Catholic. For a Catholic, Protestants don’t have any valid sacraments except baptism and (for their own followers but not in general) marriage. We don’t accept their Eucharist as being valid.

Are there some Anglicans whose bishops and priests are ligitimate? Why did the Protestants get rid of five of the Sacraments?

Very few, although I think some Anglo-Catholic clergy have gone out of their way to obtain valid orders that would be recognised by Rome should they come into full communion.

I think it was Pope Leo XIII went into the question of whether Anglican ordinations are a legitimate sacrament, but for the life of me I can’t remember the name of the document where he did so.

Two things are required for valid priesthood -

1. Apostolic succession. Those who do the ordaining have to be able to trace back through the line of those who ordained THEM, those who ordained the ones who ordained them and so on - right back to the Apostles themselves, with no breaks. For example no being ordained by someone who has split from the Apostolic (Catholic or Orthodox) churches. Many Protestant ministers can’t show this.
2. A valid rite (ceremony) of Ordination. This Leo had serious problems with, he held that the Anglican ceremony and wording were sufficiently changed that they were no longer valid.

As for the other sacraments - not all have gotten rid of all of them. Quite a few have confession and confirmation and ordination, and probably anointing of the sick (last rites) like we do. Their theology about them is quite different though - they don’t see confession as a necessity for forgiveness of serious sin as we do, for example.

Actually, the first time I came into contact with the venerable Catholic Faith was when we took a tour of an historic Cathedral. I saw a gold cylinder topped with a Cross and and PX looking symbol on it. Is that what you mean by Tabernacle? It was in the crypt part under the cathedral.

Possibly, although the crypt isn’t the most usual place for it. If it had a light next to it (especially a red one) then it most likely was.

So Jesus Christ is in the communion Bread? Is this in a mystical way or you’re talking of symbolism?

I wouldn’t call it mystical or symbolic. I’d say very much in a real way. That Eucharist IS Jesus in sacramental form.

Is it sacrilege to touch the altar? Only a priest could touch it?

Or those who are assisting him - for example an altar server who puts the cloth and vessels on the altar for Mass.

I suppose someone’s got to clean it occasionally as well.

 

[EVANGELION]

Well, there has always been a certain amount of sects and factions from day one. Remember in Acts the ‘Judaisers’ (those who thought Gentile Christians should be circumcised and obey the Jewish law?). Or the groups Paul describes as saying ‘I belong to Apollos’ or ‘I belong to Cephas’?

Isn’t that what Protestants do? They call some Wesleyans and others Lutherans. Others are called by other such names.

Not for a Catholic. For a Catholic, Protestants don’t have any valid sacraments except baptism and (for their own followers but not in general) marriage. We don’t accept their Eucharist as being valid.

Well, I was asking, if one were to want to join the most authentic version of Christianity, which would it be? Would it be Catholic or would it not matter?

Very few, although I think some Anglo-Catholic clergy have gone out of their way to obtain valid orders that would be recognised by Rome should they come into full communion.

What’s an Anglo-Catholic? Are valid orders when they are legitimate Christian priests or something?

1. Apostolic succession. Those who do the ordaining have to be able to trace back through the line of those who ordained THEM, those who ordained the ones who ordained them and so on - right back to the Apostles themselves, with no breaks. For example no being ordained by someone who has split from the Apostolic (Catholic or Orthodox) churches. Many Protestant ministers can’t show this.

Wow, that’s an interesting tradition. So Catholic Church is traceable to apostolic times? Why would the Protestants reject that? It makes the Catholic Church look more legitimate to me, since they’ve been there all 2,000 years and didn’t come along after the fact?

1. A valid rite (ceremony) of Ordination. This Leo had serious problems with, he held that the Anglican ceremony and wording were sufficiently changed that they were no longer valid.

What’s the ceremony like? Is it a secret ceremony?

As for the other sacraments - not all have gotten rid of all of them. Quite a few have confession and confirmation and ordination, and probably anointing of the sick (last rites) like we do. Their theology about them is quite different though - they don’t see confession as a necessity for forgiveness of serious sin as we do, for example.

And these sacraments aren’t really-- uh, legitimate? Is that what you’d say?

Possibly, although the crypt isn’t the most usual place for it. If it had a light next to it (especially a red one) then it most likely was.

I think so. It had a stone altar in front of it and there was Mary and some other saint on the other side. I think it was a crypt chapel or something.

I wouldn’t call it mystical or symbolic. I’d say very much in a real way.

Oh, I get it. Is that why he talked about “this bread is my body” in the gospel book? So his presence is in the bread?

Or those who are assisting him - for example an altar server who puts the cloth and vessels on the altar for Mass.

If I touched it would I get struck by lightning? LOL, just kidding.

I suppose someone’s got to clean it occasionally as well.

Maybe the monks do that? Aren’t they the ones who scrub the church floor?

 

[LilyM]

Well, I was asking, if one were to want to join the most authentic version of Christianity, which would it be? Would it be Catholic or would it not matter?

Of course it would be Catholic!

What’s an Anglo-Catholic? Are valid orders when they are legitimate Christian priests or something?

Not easy to describe. From the ones I’ve met here, kinda ‘higher-than-high-church’ Anglican. Fairly close to Catholicism and Orthodoxy in their theology and practice, but not in submission to the Pope as Catholics are, nor to the Patriarchs of the Orthodox Churches.

Wow, that’s an interesting tradition. So Catholic Church is traceable to apostolic times? Why would the Protestants reject that? It makes the Catholic Church look more legitimate to me, since they’ve been there all 2,000 years and didn’t come along after the fact?

You betcha. That’s what we keep trying to tell 'em and they either don’t believe us or don’t care

What’s the ceremony like? Is it a secret ceremony?

No, nothing secret about it, it’s a sacrament administered in public in church like marriage or confirmation.

I’ve never been to one, sadly, but you can see how the rite of Ordination happens at carr.org/~meripper/faith/o-priest.htm - it takes place within a Mass, so the ordinary bits of Mass are left out.

Basically just prayers, laying on of hands by the bishop, anointing with holy oil, the priest promises obedience, is invested with priestly garments (chasuble and stole) and that’s about it.

And these sacraments aren’t really-- uh, legitimate? Is that what you’d say?

The word ‘valid’ is normally used. And for the most part, no.

Oh, I get it. Is that why he talked about “this bread is my body” in the gospel book? So his presence is in the bread?

You got it.

If I touched it would I get struck by lightning? LOL, just kidding.

Maybe the monks do that? Aren’t they the ones who scrub the church floor?

Not any more, there aren’t enough of them these days! Most churches will have volunteers from the congregation to do the cleaning. Or maybe hire professional cleaners (just for the building, not for the sacred vessels or vestments or altar cloths etc - they need to be cleaned carefully).

 

[Drilling4Truth]

If you ever decide to start wearing medals, might I recommend the Miraculous Medal of Our Lady.

But be careful, often non-Catholics who start wearing it with devotion end up becoming Catholic. I should know.

 

[EVANGELION]

Of course it would be Catholic!

That’s what I thought. I always thought of them as the most ancient expression of Christians.

Not easy to describe. From the ones I’ve met here, kinda ‘higher-than-high-church’ Anglican. Fairly close to Catholicism and Orthodoxy in their theology and practice, but not in submission to the Pope as Catholics are, nor to the Patriarchs of the Orthodox Churches.

This is confusing. :whacky:

You betcha. That’s what we keep trying to tell 'em and they either don’t believe us or don’t care

Well, I always thought if there was a true religion it must be something like Catholicism, since it’s beautiful and ancient. Isn’t Judaism, which Christianity came from, ritualistic too? A Protestant told me before that God is not pleased by rituals. But that seemed odd since Judaism I thought was ritualistic. I thought most religions were except Protestants.

No, nothing secret about it, it’s a sacrament administered in public in church like marriage or confirmation.

I’ve never been to one, sadly, but you can see how the rite of Ordination happens at carr.org/~meripper/faith/o-priest.htm - it takes place within a Mass, so the ordinary bits of Mass are left out.

Basically just prayers, laying on of hands by the bishop, anointing with holy oil, the priest promises obedience, is invested with priestly garments (chasuble and stole) and that’s about it.

Oh, I see. So the Apostles were priests and bishops.

The word ‘valid’ is normally used. And for the most part, no.

Oh, okay.

Not any more, there aren’t enough of them these days! Most churches will have volunteers from the congregation to do the cleaning. Or maybe hire professional cleaners (just for the building, not for the sacred vessels or vestments or altar cloths etc - they need to be cleaned carefully).

Who cleans the sacred vessels? Are non-priests allowed to touch?

 

[EVANGELION]

If you ever decide to start wearing medals, might I recommend the Miraculous Medal of Our Lady.

But be careful, often non-Catholics who start wearing it with devotion end up becoming Catholic. I should know.

I got a metal from a cathedral store before. It has a a man with a bow and a Jägermeister symbol (a deer with a cross inbetween his antlers). I think the Jägermeister symbol was originally a Catholic symbol? On the back of the medal it says “pray for us”.

 

[Drilling4Truth]

It’s the symbol for St. Hubert of Liege, who saw the vision of the stag with a cross above it. He underwent a Francis like conversion and became a priest and later a bishop.

 

[LilyM]

This is confusing. :whacky:

Not really - put simply whilst we (Catholics and Anglo-Catholics) agree on many things, they don’t want to recognise the authority of Rome, so they stay separate. A sadly typical example of human stubbornness on matters religious.

Oh, I see. So the Apostles were priests and bishops.

You got it - they were the first who Jesus commissioned to celebrate the sacraments - first Communion, absolution following confession, baptism and so on.

Who cleans the sacred vessels? Are non-priests allowed to touch?

Some the priest or deacon has to clean (the chalice and plate used for Communion), the rest of it (cloths and stuff) can be cleaned by non-priests, but they have to know the right way to do it.

Because those cloths may contain traces of the Eucharistic wine or crumbs of the Eucharistic bread, in which we believe Jesus is still present, they have to be treated carefully and respectfully and not just tossed in the washing machine like a pair of dirty socks or something.

 

[LilyM]

It’s the symbol for St. Hubert of Liege, who saw the vision of the stag with a cross above it. He underwent a Francis like conversion and became a priest and later a bishop.

That’s an unusual medal then - never heard of this saint before but sounds interesting.