Catholic praying to Mormon Heavenly Father permitted?

[oliver927]

Catholic praying to Mormon Heavenly Father permitted?

My answer would be only if you also think it is permitted to pray to Zeus, Thor, Osiris, Baal or any other gods.

 

[Horton]

Originally Posted by dcana View Post

This is such an integral part of Mormonism. This is the basis in which all good Mormons believe they will get to the highest level of heaven, with their good believing, able to obtain godhood husbands, and you don’t care?

That God was once man and men can become gods is core principle of Mormonism. Even I, as a Catholic and former Protestant know this. Of course I know it to be a false principle but I do know it is a teaching of the LDS.

 

[jane_doe]

This is such an integral part of Mormonism.

Nope.

 

[jane_doe]

Ha, ha! Sorry. To be more specific, do you believe he is within this universe or outside of it?

This question doesn’t really fit the LDS thought framework.

That really doesn’t answer the question. When you speak of him in the third person, do you ever say, “the Heavenly Father”?

For example, would you ever say, “The Heavenly Father loves all people” or only “Heavenly Father loves all people?”

Why would I do that? It’d be like referring to my earthly dad as “the father said to get some milk at the store”. It strikes me as very disrespectful and impersonal.

Do you refer to “the Heavenly Father”? If so (or if not), why?

 

[Horton]

Originally Posted by Horton View Post

This is such an integral part of Mormonism.

Nope.

Just Nope! Below are just a few quotes telling exactly the opposite. I could do this all day, finding quote saying this is a teaching of the LDS. So who are we to believe?

"The idea that the Lord our God is not a personage of tabernacle is entirely a mistaken notion. He was once a man… - Prophet Brigham Young, True Character of God, Salt Lake Tabernacle, February 23, 1862, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 9, p.286

Yes, he was once a man like you and I are and was once on an earth like this, passed through the ordeal you and I pass through. Prophet Brigham Young, 14 July 1861, Recorded in “The Essential Brigham Young”, p.138

*I had a direct revelation of this. It was most perfect and complete. If there ever was a thing revealed to man perfectly, clearly, so that there could be no doubt or dubiety, this was revealed to me, and it came in these words: “As man now is, God once was; as God now is, man may be.” Prophet Lorenzo R. Snow, Unchangeable Love of God, Sunday, September 18, 1898

Joseph taught this obvious truth. As a matter of fact, he taught that through this process God himself attained perfection. From President Snow’s understanding of the teachings of the Prophet on this doctrinal point, he coined the familiar couplet: “As man is, God once was; as God is, man may become.” This teaching is peculiar to the restored gospel of Jesus Christ."

• Elder Marion G. Romney, General Conference, October 1964

*“We often say, and you have heard the expression as it has already been referred to in this conference, that “as man now is, God once was, and as God now is, man may become.” The only way man may become as God now is, is through fulfilling the laws of celestial marriage and the laws of the gospel, as I have just read to you the word of the Lord from the D&C. Can we afford to overlook such opportunities for exaltation? Temple marriage is not just another form of church wedding; it is a divine covenant with the Lord that if we are faithful to the end, we may become as God now is.”

• Elder Eldred G. Smith (Patriarch to the Church), General Conference, October 1948

"Mormonism be it true or false, holds out to men the greatest inducements that the human mind can grasp. And so it does… It teaches men that they can become divine, that man is God in embryo, that God was once man in mortality, and that the only difference between Gods, angels and men is a difference in education and development.
Orson F. Whitney, Divine Evidences of Truthfulness, Y.M.M.I.A. Annual Conference, June 9th, 1895.

“So the Prophet Joseph Smith, in this age, has added to this truth by the assertion that “As man is God once was, and that as He is man may became,” because He is our Father, and like begets like, and inherent within us are the attributes of divinity that shall lead us into perfection, which Christ intended His Saints to attain unto.”

• Elder Joseph E. Robinson, General Conference, April 1912*

 

[dcana]

To be more specific, do you believe he is within this universe or outside of it?

This question doesn’t really fit the LDS thought framework.

Fair enough.

That really doesn’t answer the question. When you speak of him in the third person, do you ever say, “the Heavenly Father”?

For example, would you ever say, “The Heavenly Father loves all people” or only “Heavenly Father loves all people?”

Why would I do that? It’d be like referring to my earthly dad as “the father said to get some milk at the store”. It strikes me as very disrespectful and impersonal.

Do you refer to “the Heavenly Father”? If so (or if not), why?

I personally see neither one as disrespectful or impersonal. To answer your question, in the third person I would only use “the Heavenly Father” to refer to God the Father and never “Heavenly Father”. Why? Well, we speak of God as God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. So in the third person, taking out “God”, we would say, “The Father”, “The Son”, and “The Holy Spirit”, and would keep the “the” when adding adjectives: “The Heavenly Father”, “The Merciful Father”, “The Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ”. Likewise with the Son and Holy Spirit: “The Merciful Son” and “The Merciful Holy Spirit”.

It seems that Mormons use “Heavenly Father” as if it were His proper name. Similarly, if I had a friend named James, I wouldn’t say, “I think that the James is a great guy.” We use “the” to distinguish Him from the Son and the Holy Spirit within the Blessed Trinity: “God the Father eternally begets God the Son.” That’s my theory.

Plus there’s the fact that that is the way:

1. Jesus His Son spoke:

All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

He didn’t say, “All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but Heavenly Father; neither knoweth any man Heavenly Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him,” nor “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of Heavenly Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost,” nor “But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship Heavenly Father in spirit and in truth: for Heavenly Father seeketh such to worship him.”

I happened to do a King James search on “the Father.” As it happens, Jesus Himself refers to His Father as “the Father” 64 times in the Gospel of St. John alone. Not once does he use “Heavenly Father”.

I think following Jesus the Son of the Father is a good idea.

1. And John:

No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

John does not say “The Son is in the bosom of Heavenly Father.”

1. And Paul:

Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Paul doesn’t say, “Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of Heavenly Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.”

St. Paul uses, “the Father” in Romans, 1 and 2 Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, 1 Thessalonians, 2 Timothy, Titus, and the Letter to the Hebrews (though some people don’t ascribe Hebrews to Paul). Likewise in the epistles written by St. James, St. Peter (both of them), St. John (1 and 2), and St. Jude.

---

Have you ever referred to God the Father in speech or writing as 1. “God the Father” or “the Father” or only 2. “Heavenly Father”? Just curious.

 

[RebeccaJ]

LDS use both and so do Catholics. Particularly when praying we both address the Father as “Father”.

LDS baptize using the Trinitarian formula. While they mean a very different thing when say “In the name of the Father”…they still say “the Father”

When just speaking of the Holy Persons of the Trinity, generally Catholics say “the Father” or “Our Father”. LDS generally say “Heavenly Father”.

 

[jane_doe]

I personally see neither one as disrespectful or impersonal. To answer your question, in the third person I would only use “the Heavenly Father” to refer to God the Father and never “Heavenly Father”. Why? Well, we speak of God as God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. So in the third person, taking out “God”, we would say, “The Father”, “The Son”, and “The Holy Spirit”, and would keep the “the” when adding adjectives: “The Heavenly Father”, “The Merciful Father”, “The Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ”. Likewise with the Son and Holy Spirit: “The Merciful Son” and “The Merciful Holy Spirit”.

It seems that Mormons use “Heavenly Father” as if it were His proper name. Similarly, if I had a friend named James, I wouldn’t say, “I think that the James is a great guy.” We use “the” to distinguish Him from the Son and the Holy Spirit within the Blessed Trinity: “God the Father eternally begets God the Son.” That’s my theory.

I would agree that Mormon due typically use “Heavenly Father” like it was His name, though it would technically be more of a title, “heavenly” being an adjective. The phrase “heavenly Father” is used in the Bible directly, such as Matthew 18:45, 15:13, and several places in Matthew 6. It is used indirectly in the Lord’s Prayer and other places throughout the Bible.

In addition to “Heavenly Father”, LDS do refer to Him as the “the Father” frequently. The phrase is “in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost” is used very frequently, including during baptism.

(I apologize if I accidentally mis-answered your question before. I was doing a mental search for “the Heavenly Father” which came up pretty empty because it’s not really used. “The Father” is used very frequently).

 

[Stephen168]

Joseph Smith:

I want to ask this congregation, every man, woman and child, to answer the question in their own hearts, what kind of a being God is? … I again repeat the question—What kind of a being is God? Does any man or woman know? … What sort of a being was God in the beginning? Open your ears and hear, all ye ends of the earth, for I am going to prove it to you by the Bible, and to tell you the designs of God in relation to the human race, and why He interferes with the affairs of man. … God himself. was Once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret. … The head God called together the Gods and sat in grand council to bring forth the world. … Now, the word create came from the word baurau, which does not mean to create out of nothing; it means to organize; the same as a man would organize materials and build a ship.

The founder of the Latter-Day-Saint Movement claimed to talk with God to such a degree that he started a new religion. It is clear the god of Mormonism is one of many gods, was once a man, and did not create all things visible and invisible. This is not the Judeo-Christian God.

 

[Horton]

The founder of the Latter-Day-Saint Movement claimed to talk with God to such a degree that he started a new religion. It is clear the god of Mormonism is one of many gods, was once a man, and did not create all things visible and invisible. This is not the Judeo-Christian God.

So for the LDS God the Father, or the Heavenly Father, did NOT create the world? God is not the creator? Just the organizer?

Just to try and follow this logic out. Since the Heavenly Father was once man and is now God, and all men can obtain the same exaltation, there are more than one heavenly fathers? So when the LDS pray to the heavenly father, they may not be all praying to the same one God as Christians do but possibly to whichever forbearer they have that was able to obtain this sameness as God, this exaltation?

 

[Stephen168]

So for the LDS God the Father, or the Heavenly Father, did NOT create the world? God is not the creator? Just the organizer?

Just to try and follow this logic out. Since the Heavenly Father was once man and is now God, and all men can obtain the same exaltation, there are more than one heavenly fathers? So when the LDS pray to the heavenly father, they may not be all praying to the same one God as Christians do but possibly to whichever forbearer they have that was able to obtain this sameness as God, this exaltation?

Joseph Smith rejected creation ex nihilo, and the Trinity. He claimed god was a man, and man can be god. He claimed the father was a god, the son is a god, the holy ghost is a god, there are many gods, and you can be a god.

I think Mormonism had begun to realize that the teachings of past Mormon ‘prophets’ have been just random thoughts which have proven irrational in total. Teachings, as you point out, that can led to crazy conclusions. They now want to say, but haven’t really thought it through, that they believe in one god, the trinity, and god as the creator of all things. It won’t be long before Mormonism returns to Christian beliefs, held by the Catholic Church for over 2000 years, and Mormon scriptures will taught as allegories.

 

[gazelam]

Joseph Smith rejected creation ex nihilo, and the Trinity. He claimed god was a man, and man can be god. He claimed the father was a god, the son is a god, the holy ghost is a god, there are many gods, and you can be a god.

I think Mormonism had begun to realize that the teachings of past Mormon ‘prophets’ have been just random thoughts which have proven irrational in total. Teachings, as you point out, that can led to crazy conclusions. They now want to say, but haven’t really thought it through, that they believe in one god, the trinity, and god as the creator of all things. It won’t be long before Mormonism returns to Christian beliefs, held by the Catholic Church for over 2000 years, and Mormon scriptures will taught as allegories.

CCC 460 The Word became flesh to make us “partakers of the divine nature”:“For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a son of God.” “For the Son of God became man so that we might become God.” “The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods.”

 

[Stephen168]

CCC 460 The Word became flesh to make us “partakers of the divine nature”:“For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a son of God.” “For the Son of God became man so that we might become God.” “The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods.”

However, early Christians did believe that deification was possible at some point in the eternities as do Latter-day Saints today.
Stephen168;13585181:

Christians have NEVER believed or taught what Joseph Smith or Lorenzo Snow taught. Joseph Smith just made it up.

St. Irenaeus:

For the uncreated is perfect, that is, God. Now it was necessary that man should in the first instance be created; and having been created, should receive growth; and having received growth, should be strengthened; and having been strengthened, should abound; and having abounded, should recover [from the disease of sin]; and having recovered, should be glorified; and being glorified, should see his Lord. For God is He who is yet to be seen, and the beholding of God is productive of immortality, but immortality renders one near unto God.

St. Athanasius:

He said that God had made all things out of pre-existent and uncreated matter, just as the carpenter makes things only out of wood that already exists. But those who hold this view do not realize that to deny that God is Himself the Cause of matter is to impute limitation to Him, just as it is undoubtedly a limitation on the part of the carpenter that he can make nothing unless he has the wood. How could God be called Maker and Artificer if His ability to make depended on some other cause, namely on matter itself?

Joseph Smith:

He was once a man like us; yea that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ did; and I will show it from the Bible.

Encyclopedia of Mormonism:

Gods and humans represent a single divine lineage, the same species of being, although they and he are at different stages of progress. This doctrine is stated concisely in a well-known couplet by President Lorenzo Snow: "As man now is, God once was: as God now is, man may be"

Now all a Mormon has to do is find an ECF that states that God the Father was once a man.
Doctrine & Convenants 76:58:

Wherefore, as it is written, they are gods, even the sons of God—

Doctrine & Convenants 93:29:

Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

*According to that which was ordained in the midst of the Council of the Eternal God of all other gods before this world was, that should be reserved unto the finishing and the end thereof, when every man shall enter into his eternal presence and into his immortal rest.

This is what Mormonism means by “men becoming gods” which is polytheism.

 

[dcana]

I would agree that Mormon due typically use “Heavenly Father” like it was His name, though it would technically be more of a title, “heavenly” being an adjective. The phrase “heavenly Father” is used in the Bible directly, such as Matthew 18:45, 15:13, and several places in Matthew 6. It is used indirectly in the Lord’s Prayer and other places throughout the Bible.

In addition to “Heavenly Father”, LDS do refer to Him as the “the Father” frequently. The phrase is “in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost” is used very frequently, including during baptism.

(I apologize if I accidentally mis-answered your question before. I was doing a mental search for “the Heavenly Father” which came up pretty empty because it’s not really used. “The Father” is used very frequently).

Thank you, Jane, for your response.

As far as the use of “Heavenly Father” (actually “heavenly Father”) in the Bible, it is used six times, all by Jesus, 5 times in Matthew and one time in Luke. However, Jesus does not use it the way mormons use it, as if “Heavenly Father” was God the Father’s name. In four of the six times He says, “your heavenly Father” and twice he says, “my heavenly Father”, so “heavenly” is simply an adjective. He could have said, “your merciful Father” or “your loving Father”. He doesn’t, to take the first use (Mt 6) as an example, say, “For if ye forgive men their trespasses, Heavenly Father will also forgive you,” but “For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you,” that is to say, “your Father, who dwells in the heavens, will also forgive you”.

God bless

 

[dcana]

CCC 460 The Word became flesh to make us “partakers of the divine nature”:“For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a son of God.” “For the Son of God became man so that we might become God.” “The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods.”

This use is only in a manner of speaking.

It is describing the Beatific Vision, which is the life of Heaven, in which the souls of the elect will be united in such a close intimacy with God (Scripture says we will see Him “face-to-face”) that God will be All to them. Their spiritual vision, attention, desires, and everything else for that matter will be “rapt” in the Glory, Beauty, and contemplation of God. However, the person remains a human being, just as he is now, just as he was born. In no way does he become an angel or become a “god”, as God alone is God. Humans can’t “transform” into angels or (one shouldn’t even need to say it, since the concept is about as illogical and faulty as one could imagine) God, to become “gods” the way God is God, other “Heavenly Fathers” as it were, with a divine nature, i.e. eternal, uncreated, the cause and creator of all things, having infinite power and knowledge, infinite goodness, truth, and beauty, and so on. Angels are forever angels (even the demons), humans are forever humans, and God is forever God.

But I think you already knew that - that is, what Christians believe. If not, now you do.

 

[gazelam]

Now all a Mormon has to do is find an ECF that states that God the Father was once a man.

There are three early English Bible translations that refer to God as a man.

Mark 10:18 (NABRE) Jesus answered him, Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.

The Wycliffe Bible translates Mark 10:18 this way: And Jesus said to him, What sayest thou, that I am good? There is no man good, but God himself.

See biblestudytools.com/parallel-bible/passage/?q=mark+10:18&t=wyc&t2=niv

The Tyndale Bible translates Mark 10:18 this way: Iesus sayde to him: why callest thou me good? There is no ma good but one which is God.

biblestudytools.com/tyn/mark/passage/?q=mark+10:18-28

I believe that the Bishops Bible says something similar, but cannot find it online.

The interlinear website for Mark 10:18 bolsters these early English translations. biblehub.com/interlinear/mark/10-18.htm

You’ll notice that the the greek work for “no one” (as in “no one is good but God”) is “oudeis”. Follow the link of “oudeis” (biblehub.com/greek/oudeis_3762.htm) and you will see several verses where “oudeis” is used and are translated as “no man” or “no one”

I hope a Bible verse will do in leiu of an ECF quote…

This is what Mormonism means by “men becoming gods” which is polytheism.

If Mormonism’s belief that it’s possible for a person to become divine make’s it polytheistic, then Catholicism is also polytheistic since it believes there are three divine persons (Father, Son, Holy Spirit).

 

[Stephen168]

There are three early English Bible translations that refer to God as a man.

Mark 10:18 (NABRE) Jesus answered him, Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.

The Wycliffe Bible translates Mark 10:18 this way: And Jesus said to him, What sayest thou, that I am good? There is no man good, but God himself.

Mark 10:18 And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? OUDEIS is good except God alone.

oudeís (from 3756 /ou “no, not” and 1520 /heís, “one”) – properly, not one; no one, nothing.

OUDEIS is an adjective which does not mean human being as you try to claim. The Mormon understand of god is not now or has ever been Christian.

If Mormonism’s belief that it’s possible for a person to become divine make’s it polytheistic, then Catholicism is also polytheistic since it believes there are three divine persons (Father, Son, Holy Spirit).

You don’t understand the Christian teaching on the trinity. The Mormon understanding of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost is clearly polytheistic due to their rejection of Christian teaching.

 

[Horton]

If Mormonism’s belief that it’s possible for a person to become divine make’s it polytheistic, then Catholicism is also polytheistic since it believes there are three divine persons (Father, Son, Holy Spirit).

Taking a few verses of scripture and one paragraph of the CCC out of context to attempt to show the Catholic Church is like the LDS does not make the LDS right. The Catholic Church has never been polytheistic and the LDS has always been.

 

[Stephen168]

The Catholic Church has never been polytheistic and the LDS has always been.

Actually, I think a case can be made that Mormonism believed in the triune God of Christian at its beginning. Overtime Joseph Smith changed his beliefs about God to include polytheism and a rejection of the trinity. There are many posts on CAF showing the changes in the “first vision” and the Book of Mormon which demonstrated this. The one that I remember most is the original Book of Mormon referred to Mary as the Mother of God then changed it to Mary the mother of the son of god.
While Mormons talk about the apostasy of Christianity, it is Joseph Smith that led his people into apostasy.

 

[Horton]

Actually, I think a case can be made that Mormonism believed in the triune God of Christian at its beginning. Overtime Joseph Smith changed his beliefs about God to include polytheism and a rejection of the trinity. There are many posts on CAF showing the changes in the “first vision” and the Book of Mormon which demonstrated this. The one that I remember most is the original Book of Mormon referred to Mary as the Mother of God then changed it to Mary the mother of the son of god.
While Mormons talk about the apostasy of Christianity, it is Joseph Smith that led his people into apostasy.

The God I know doesn’t make mistakes. So either God made a mistake or Joseph Smith did. For me, I placing my eternal life in the hands of the proven God.