Catholic predestination teaching

[josephback]

I searched an online catechism for “predestination”, and the only result that came up was paragraph 600. Reading the paragraphs around it., it seems that the church puts the emphasis on man’s free will, and rejects strict determinism. What does the Church mean by “predestination?” -that God fits men’s will and actions into His original plan? What does it mean that believers are predestined? Thank you.

 

[mab23]

bump

 

[MidnightSun12]

If you read the fatima revelation, our Lady clearly tells Sr. Lucy that she will be going to heaven when she dies:

Lucy describes the apparition in this way:

Then Our Lady said to us: ‘Do not be afraid. I will do you no harm.’

‘Where is Your Grace from?’ I asked Her.

‘I am of Heaven.’

‘What does Your Grace want of me?’

‘I have come to ask you to come here for six months in succession, on the 13th day, at this same hour. Later on, I will tell you who I am and what I want. Afterwards, I will return here yet a seventh time.’

‘Shall I go to Heaven too?’

‘Yes, you will.’

‘And Jacinta?’

‘Also.’

‘And Francisco?’

‘Also, but he will have to say many Rosaries.’

fatima.org/essentials/facts/1917appar.asp

This is not pre-destination in the protestant sense of the term, however. Our Lady can tell Sr. Lucy that she is going to heaven without violating her free-will. Sr. Lucy was still completely free to decide on her own whether she wants to go to heaven or to commit sin and turn her back from God (God just knew what choice she would ultimately make).

I like to use the word “pre-determination” as opposed to “pre-destination”.

 

[R_C]

I searched an online catechism for “predestination”, and the only result that came up was paragraph 600. Reading the paragraphs around it., it seems that the church puts the emphasis on man’s free will, and rejects strict determinism. What does the Church mean by “predestination?” -that God fits men’s will and actions into His original plan? What does it mean that believers are predestined? Thank you.

Predestination is a great mystery that goes straight into the core of God’s ineffable nature, and one that s. Ignatius of Loyola refers to in the Spiritual Exercises with the following words:

We ought not, by way of custom, to speak much of predestination; but if in some way and at some times one speaks, let him so speak that the common people may not come into any error, as sometimes happens, saying: Whether I have to be saved or condemned is already determined, and no other thing can now be, through my doing well or ill; and with this, growing lazy, they become negligent in the works which lead to the salvation and the spiritual profit of their souls.

We may briefly state that predestination is a consequence of God’s omniscence and of the fact that eternity is outside of time (“A thousand years in your sight are like a day that has just gone by, or like a watch in the night.”, “But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.”). For these trascendental reasons, it is a fact that God already knows everyone who will be saved and everyone who will chose to reject Him despite His superabundant gifts of grace. Predestination, however, does not deny free will, but rather confirms it: for the mystery of predestination is just this: God knows beforehand that, since He granted His creatures free will, some will chose to reject Him and His graces despite everything.

It is however gravely erroneous to consider that anyone is saved or condemned before the moment of death. In fact we know that some people were saved even on the point of death by a sincere repentance, and we know of others that no matter what, condemned themselves (one such case is Judas: despite being chosen by Christ, receiving all graces, seeing his feet washed, being allowed to sit in the place of honor at the Last Supper, receiving a morsel from the Lord’s hand (a gesture of great honor according to the custom), and even being called “friend” after the betrayal, still did not believe that Christ was the Resurrection and the Life who came not to seek the righteous but sinners to repentance, and came not to condemn the world, but to save the world.

I myself having struggled with the topic for some time, have reached this understanding: predestination is simply a subset of omniscence, and does not trespass over my free will. As St. Paul and all the apostles and Church Fathers teach us, we must work out our salvation, run as to win the race. Even St. Paul writes: “For my conscience is clear; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judges me is the Lord.” “But I chastise my body, and bring it into subjection: lest perhaps, when I have preached to others, I myself should become a castaway.” But, as St. Mary Magdalene and the Good Thief show, Christ is mighty to save, even at the last instant of our time on earth, even when it seems impossible:

The disciples were even more amazed, and said to each other, “Who then can be saved?”

Looking at them, Jesus said, “With people it is impossible, but not with God; for all things are possible with God.”

It is only non-Catholic doctrines which take this mystery and turn it into an essential part of their error, stating for instance that everyone is saved, that all baptized are saved, or that God chooses some to be saved and some to be condemned and then imposes salvation or damnation on them. All of that is nonsense. So it’s better to not think too much about something we cannot understand, for this sort of curiosity can lead to more harm than good. Suffices, I think, to know that God is never unaware, that He knows everything, and that He is ready to help us and forgive us always, no matter what.

 

[bzkoss236]

Maybe it could be simplified as saying:

God knows the choices we will make before we make them, and He has a predestined plan for us. It is up to us to work within God’s plan for us, but we have the choice to reject that plan.

?

 

[dmar198]

I searched an online catechism for “predestination”, and the only result that came up was paragraph 600. Reading the paragraphs around it., it seems that the church puts the emphasis on man’s free will, and rejects strict determinism. What does the Church mean by “predestination?” -that God fits men’s will and actions into His original plan? What does it mean that believers are predestined? Thank you.

The fundamental teaching regarding this can be found in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph 600, which you apparently have found already.

It says: “When [God] establishes his eternal plan of predestination, he includes in it each person’s free response to his grace.”

What this means is that our choices are known beforehand and taken into account when God distributes the graces that lead to salvation. Those who are going to refuse grace and die in mortal sin are permitted by God to do that; those who are going to accept grace and die in friendship with God are given the special graces that will lead them toward doing His will. In addition to the Catechism passage you have already read, I encourage you to read paragraphs 1996-2005 (which is the section on “grace”), and paragraph 2008, and paragraph 153. These paragraphs are very related to the doctrine of predestination. What you will learn from those paragraphs is that God moves within man’s heart to bring him in line with the divine will. Everytime we cooperate with God’s plan, that cooperation itself is the result of God at work within us. God’s plan of predestination, is the plan by which He makes all the preparations necessary to bring a man to salvation. And of course some people can’t be brought to salvation without destroying their free will, and so God permits them to go to destruction, even though He wishes the opposite.

 

[CrossofChrist]

I searched an online catechism for “predestination”, and the only result that came up was paragraph 600. Reading the paragraphs around it., it seems that the church puts the emphasis on man’s free will, and rejects strict determinism. What does the Church mean by “predestination?” -that God fits men’s will and actions into His original plan? What does it mean that believers are predestined? Thank you.

Look up Congruism. It’s a system developed by the Jesuit Scholasticism of the 16th and 17th centuries that, IMHO, best explains predestination that avoids the logical conclusion (or what seems to me to be it) of the Thomist/Banezian system.

But basically God’s grace precedes our action and he calls us to repentance, and we have to accept that call and, by his grace, cooperate with him in receiving salvation via the Sacraments.

 

[Linusthe2nd]

I searched an online catechism for “predestination”, and the only result that came up was paragraph 600. Reading the paragraphs around it., it seems that the church puts the emphasis on man’s free will, and rejects strict determinism. What does the Church mean by “predestination?” -that God fits men’s will and actions into His original plan? What does it mean that believers are predestined? Thank you.

The Council of Trent declared that God predestines certain men to eternal Blessedness.

But is is the general teaching of the Church, beginning with the Council of Florence that God predestines certain men to eternal reprobation ( which was not defined ).

Both teachings are Defined dogmas according to Ott.

But we are advised not to look closely into these teachings because we just don’t know all the details.

I prefer to think that God forsees all our acts right to the end of our lives and determines from all eternity whether or not we will reject him. His decision as to determining our Blessedness or rejection is nothing more than the granting of our desire. But this is only my opinion. But I think it accords well with God’s mercy, which I think is His best attribute and will outweigh His strict justice. And if it doesn’t, it will certainly go hard on most of us. But why worry about it, do the best we can. If we do that we will be saved. Linus2nd

 

[CrossofChrist]

But is is the general teaching of the Church, beginning with the Council of Florence that God predestines certain men to eternal reprobation ( which was not defined ).

Linus2nd

No.

The Council of Florence said: The souls of those who depart in actual mortal sin or in original sin only, go at once into the realm of the dead, to be punished with different penalties.

It did not say God predestines souls to hell. Calvinism was condemned at the Council of Trent.

CANON XVII.-If any one saith, that the grace of Justification is only attained to by those who are predestined unto life; but that all others who are called, are called indeed, but receive not grace, as being, by the divine power, predestined unto evil; let him be anathema.

 

[porthos11]

No.

The Council of Florence said: The souls of those who depart in actual mortal sin or in original sin only, go at once into the realm of the dead, to be punished with different penalties.

It did not say God predestines souls to hell. Calvinism was condemned at the Council of Trent.

CANON XVII.-If any one saith, that the grace of Justification is only attained to by those who are predestined unto life; but that all others who are called, are called indeed, but receive not grace, as being, by the divine power, predestined unto evil; let him be anathema.

Actually, yes. That God destines certain men to damnation is indeed Catholic teaching and is not to be rejected. This is not, however, the unconditional reprobation held by the Calvinists rightly condemned as heretical.

In Molinist thought, after God lays out a fixed order of grace, he then sees each man’s free response to that grace, and those he sees as freely rejecting it, he destines for hell. God’s sovereignty is therefore still affirmed in the free fixing of an order of grace, and man’s free will is still affirmed as God does not predestine to hell without consideration of foreseen demerits.

There is no good Thomist/Banezan equivalent for reprobation as it essentially equates with Calvinism.

 

[Skye_Ariel]

I think it’s just a matter of God already having seen every choice everyone will ever make and He already knows the ones who’s choices will lead them to the destination of Heaven. So when someone is predestined to do this or that it simply means God already saw that they made the choice to do this or that and simply** tells **them that. Like re watching a movie on a DVD, you already know what’s going to happen but you didn’t make what happens happen, you simply know about. If I tell you the ending of a movie you haven’t seen, I didn’t create the ending, I only told you about it. Think of predestination as God re watching the DVD of our life. Some people will end up broke no matter how much money they make, get or find because in all scenarios they will always make wrong financial choices, so in a sense, that person is predestined to end up broke. Some people are magnets for picking the wrong friends or partners and all choices they make end up with them being with the wrong person, so in a sense, they are predestined to have bad relationships. Some people are strong over comers and will overcome all situations by making the right choices so in a sense they are predestined to be strong over comers and achievers. God has already seen where we will all end up by our choices. He knows those who are predestined to go to Heaven. That’s what predestination is. Knowing your destiny before you do. Predestination.

 

[R_C]

Actually, yes. That God destines certain men to damnation is indeed Catholic teaching and is not to be rejected.

As far as I know, the Church rejects the very idea that God could destine any man to damnation as a heresy. If I am wrong, prove me wrong.

Predestinarianism is a heresy which reduces the eternal salvation of the elect as well as the eternal damnation of the reprobate to one cause alone, namely to the sovereign will of God, and thereby excludes the free co-operation of man.

The essence of this heretical Predestinarianism may be expressed in these two fundamental propositions which bear to each other the relation of cause and effect:

• the absolute will of God as the sole cause of the salvation or damnation of the individual, without regard to his merits or demerits;

• as to the elect, it denies the freedom of the will under the influence of efficacious grace while it puts the reprobate under the necessity of committing sin in consequence of the absence of grace.

[T]he all-important question is: Can God the all just absolutely and positively predestine anyone to hell? Can the all holy incite and force anyone to sin with the intention of consigning him to eternal damnation? The denial of the universality of the salvific will of God and the restriction of the merits of Christ’s passion to the elect are only natural consequences of the fundamental principles of this heresy.

Heretical Predestinarianism received a new and vigorous impulse at the outbreak of the Reformation. Luther having denied the freedom of the will in sinful man as also freedom in the use of grace, logically placed the eternal destiny of the individual solely and entirely in the hands of God, who without any regard to merit or demerit metes out heaven or hell just as He pleases. Zwingli endeavoured to obviate the grave consequences that this principle necessarily produces in the moral order by the vain excuse that “just as God incited the robber to commit murder, so also He forces the judge to impose the penalty of death on the murderer” (De provid. Dei, in “Opera” ed. Schuler, IV, 113). Melanchthon taught expressly that the treason of Judas was just as much the work of God as was the vocation of St. Paul (cf. Trident., Sess. VI, can. vi, in Denzinger, n. 816). Calvin is the most logical advocate of Predestinarianism pure and simple. Absolute and positive predestination of the elect for eternal life, as well as of the reprobate for hell and for sin, is one of the chief elements of his whole doctrinal system.

 

[Skye_Ariel]

Another example is someone who God knows and already saw that in the last 10yrs of his life will become a strong Catholic and do a lot of good to help people, even though in his 20’s and 30’s he may be a hellion or even an atheist. That person is destined to become Catholic no matter how they may act or talk now, and God may give graces to the person and help the person along his life because of his destiny. God may save the person’s life by way of miracle even when the guy doesn’t believe God even exists, because God can see the person he is destined to be 20yrs later. Ever wonder why some people who are not a true practicing Catholic seems to get a lot of graces or help from God? God sees the person they are destined to be, and blesses them accordingly. God’s viewpoint is totally different from ours, He’s outside time so He can see the future and the present at the same time. Like God saw Obama as president even when he was a baby, before anyone else had a clue of his destiny.

 

[Skye_Ariel]

As far as I know, the Church rejects the very idea that God could destine any man to damnation as a heresy. If I am wrong, prove me wrong.

That’s true, God does not destine anyone for Heaven or hell. It’s the person’s choices that lead them to their destiny.

 

[josephback]

Hi everyone. I’m reading your responses.

 

[porthos11]

As far as I know, the Church rejects the very idea that God could destine any man to damnation as a heresy. If I am wrong, prove me wrong.

The Church rejects only unconditioned reprobation ante praevisa demerita, that is, without consideration of foreseen demerits; this is condemned. The Church holds on to conditioned reprobation post praevisa demerita, i.e. in light of foreseen demerits.

Ott:

GOD, BY AN ETERNAL RESOLVE OF HIS WILL, PREDESTINES CERTAIN MEN, ON ACCOUNT OF THEIR FORESEEN SINS, TO ETERNAL REJECTION (De fide)

The reality of Reprobation is not formally defined, but it is the general teaching of the Church.

1. POSITIVE REPROBATION

Heretical Predestinationism in its various forms (the Southern Gallic priest Lucidus in the 5th century; the monk Gottschalk in the 9th century, according to reports of his opponents, which, however, find no confirmation in his recently re-discovered writings; Wycliffe, Hus, and esp. Calvin), teaches a positive predetermination to sin, and an unconditional Predestination to the eternal punishment of hell, that is, without consideration of future demerits. This was rejected as false doctrine by the Particular Synods of Orange, Quiercy & Valence and by the Council of Trent. Unconditioned positive Reprobation leads to a denial of the universality of the Divine Desire for salvation, and of the Redemption, and contradicts the Justice and Holiness of God as well as the freedom of man.

According to the teaching of the Church, there is a conditioned positive Reprobation, that is, it occurs with consideration of foreseen future demerits (post et propter praevisa demerita). The conditional nature of Positive Reprobation is demanded by the generality of the Divine Resolve of salvation. This excludes God’s desiring in advance the damnation of certain men (cf. 1 Tim 2:4, Ezek 33:11, 2 Pet 3:9) . . .

1. NEGATIVE REPROBATION

In the question of Reprobation, the Thomist view favours not an absolute, but only a negative Reprobation. This is conceived by most Thomists as non-election to eternal bliss (non-electio), together with the Divine resolve to permit some rational creatures to fall into sin, and thus by their own guilt to lose eternal salvation. In contrast to the absolute Positive Reprobation of the Predestinarians, Thomists insist on the universality of the Divine Resolve of Salvation and Redemption, the allocation of sufficient graces to the reprobate, and the freedom of man’s will. However, it is difficult to find an intrinsic concordance between unconditioned non-election and the universality of the Divine Resolve of salvation. In practice, the unconditioned negative Reprobation of the Thomists involves the same result as the unconditioned positive Reprobation of the heretical Predestinarians, since outside Heaven and Hell there is no third final state.

Like the Resolve of Predestination the Divine Resolve of Reprobation is immutable, but, without special revelation, its incidence is unknown to men.

 

[porthos11]

That’s true, God does not destine anyone for Heaven or hell. It’s the person’s choices that lead them to their destiny.

The Catholic Church does teach that predestination and reprobation are revealed truths. What she doesn’t do is define exactly how this happens. It is not permitted to reject either of them in principle.

On predestination to heaven, it is permitted to hold that God desires in advance the salvation of certain men, for no other reason than his will, and without consideration of his foreseen merits (Thomism) and bestows the necessary grace to ensure that the man is saved. It is also permitted to hold that God knows what choices we all freely make given various orders of grace and then out of his own sovereign will, God sets out a fixed order of grace and in light of foreseen future merits, God predestines certain men to heaven, and in light of future demerits, i.e. he sees as freely rejecting his grace, destines others to hell (Molinism). Both Thomism and Molinism are deemed acceptable by the Catholic Church where predestination to heaven is concerned.

On reprobation, only the Molinist school can be accepted, as it correctly rejects unconditioned reprobation. While the Thomists tried to formulate a theology of negative reprobation, it wasn’t satisfactory as it was pretty much equivalent to Calvinism in effect and so could not be accepted.

 

[CrossofChrist]

Actually, yes. That God destines certain men to damnation is indeed Catholic teaching and is not to be rejected. This is not, however, the unconditional reprobation held by the Calvinists rightly condemned as heretical.

Those who die in a state of mortal sin go to hell, yes. And God knows who that will be as well. But, to reiterate Hans Urs von Balthasar in the words of Avery Dulles, “we have a right and even a duty to hope for the salvation of all, because it is not impossible that even the worst sinners may be moved by God’s grace to repent before they die”.

Do you have any Church documents that say God destines certain men to damnation?

 

[R_C]

The Church rejects only unconditioned reprobation ante praevisa demerita, that is, without consideration of foreseen demerits; this is condemned. The Church holds on to conditioned reprobation post praevisa demerita, i.e. in light of foreseen demerits.

Ohhhh uch: Now I understand what you meant. Yes, indeed, clearly God knows who will reject His graces and forgiveness, which leads to the conditioned reprobation you mention, not due to God’s personal choice, but to God’s foreknowledge of the person’s choices (or rather, demerits). That is true, and another mysterious consequence of omniscience.

I still think these things can be extremely confusing for many…which is why this is barely mentioned in the Catechism, I would guess…ultimately anyone can be saved while in life, and I recall it is impossible to know for anyone alive whether he will be saved or not, so we should all aim to salvation, “run as to win the race”

 

[porthos11]

Those who die in a state of mortal sin go to hell, yes. And God knows who that will be as well. But, to reiterate Hans Urs von Balthasar in the words of Avery Dulles, “we have a right and even a duty to hope for the salvation of all, because it is not impossible that even the worst sinners may be moved by God’s grace to repent before they die”.

Do you have any Church documents that say God destines certain men to damnation?

God desires the salvation of all; this is scriptural and is the main reason we must reject unconditioned reprobation as heretical.

See the excerpt from Ott above.

On reprobation, we have Scripture on our side. Judas was clearly reprobated from the Lord’s own words but did God unconditionally predestine him to hell? No. He went to his death according to his own free will. St. Paul tells us in Romans 9 that there are people who are as vessels fitted for destruction (Rom 9:22) and that there are people who God hardens (Rom 9:18), the latter which must be understood in the God’s desire for universal salvation (1 Tim 2:4).

On Church pronouncements:

Council of Valence:
322…faithfully we confess the predestination of the elect to life, and the predestination of the impious to death; in the election, moreover, of those who are to be saved, the mercy of God precedes the merited good. In the condemnation, however, of those who are to be lost, the evil which they have deserved precedes the just judgment of God. In predestination, however, (we believe) that God has determined only those things which He Himself either in His gratuitous mercy or in His just judgment would do * according to Scripture which says: “Who has done the things which are to be done” Is. 4 5:11, LXX]; in regard to evil men, however, we believe that God foreknew their malice, because it is from them, but that He did not predestine it, because it is not from Him. (We believe) that God, who sees all things, foreknew and predestined that their evil deserved the punishment which followed, because He is just, in whom, as Saint Augustine* says, there is concerning all things everywhere so fixed a decree as a certain predestination.

Council of Quiersly
316 Omnipotent God created man noble without sin with a free will, and he whom He wished to remain in the sanctity of justice, He placed in Paradise. Man using his free will badly sinned and fell, and became the “mass of perdition” of the entire human race. The just and good God, however, chose from this same mass of perdition according to His foreknowledge those whom through grace He predestined to life Rom. 8:29 ff.; Eph. 1:11], and He predestined for these eternal life; the others, whom by the judgment of justice he left in the mass of perdition, however, He knew would perish, but He did not predestine that they would perish, because He is just; however, He predestined eternal punishment for them.* And on account of this we speak of only one predestination of God, which pertains either to the gift of grace or to the retribution of justice.