Catholic-Protestant Unity

[SpiritMeadow]

Mr. Betts,

I find you post interesting. First you suppose that unity is desireable, and there are plenty I think that might argue that there is nothing inherently wrong with expressing God in variations.

Second you say that most Protestants think that Rome should make the first move. I don’t say that, and frankly don’t know any Protestants who do.

Third, your answer seems to be that all we have to do is become Roman Catholics and all will be solved. Yeah, well of course, or you could become Episcopalian or Lutheran, or Methodist. That is hardly an answer. You simply gloss over the real difficulties.

Your response to each point of the Pope, magisterium, infallability, as issues, seems to be that "we are THE church, as if that answers it. We know your opinion, but we have our own, and they are quite different.

So, I’m really at a loss as to what you are looking for here, other than to state for the billionth time, that you think the RCC is the bestest darn church every created and you can’t understand why the rest of the world doesn’t agree. Is there some other point?

 

[BareKnuckler]

I was talking about a this with a Protestant (Nazarene) friend of mine earlier, and we both agreed that if the various Large denominational groups would first come to agreement, (for examples all Lutherans on the same page, all Methodists on the same page, all Presbetyrians on the same page, and so on) then perhaps reunion to Rome could be in the cards.

lol, getting together all the people, who think each one is either “correct” or “better” is not gonna do anything but make things worse, maybe even start a fight. The only way the RCC can hope to reunite with everyone else, they need to show they are around, make a propoganda machine, or if you have one, upgrade it to 2.0.

 

[Cluny]

Only probblem is that the Catholic Church was the one founded by Christ.

And Orthodox would make the identical claim.

 

[CWBetts]

Mr. Betts,

I find you post interesting. First you suppose that unity is desireable, and there are plenty I think that might argue that there is nothing inherently wrong with expressing God in variations.

Second you say that most Protestants think that Rome should make the first move. I don’t say that, and frankly don’t know any Protestants who do.

Third, your answer seems to be that all we have to do is become Roman Catholics and all will be solved. Yeah, well of course, or you could become Episcopalian or Lutheran, or Methodist. That is hardly an answer. You simply gloss over the real difficulties.

Your response to each point of the Pope, magisterium, infallability, as issues, seems to be that "we are THE church, as if that answers it. We know your opinion, but we have our own, and they are quite different.

So, I’m really at a loss as to what you are looking for here, other than to state for the billionth time, that you think the RCC is the bestest darn church every created and you can’t understand why the rest of the world doesn’t agree. Is there some other point?

My point is this. No Protestant in the world can trace his roots to prior to 1517. Catholics can trace theors back to Jesus Christ. Some Baptists domake the claim thet they can trce theirs back to the NT as well, but there is a lack of any evidence, and in thruth have thier origins in the 17th century. The Orthodox question is somewhat more complex, as both the Orthodox Churches and the Catholic Church have claims of Apostolic Authority to the New Testament, though the Orthodox Churches are insular and lack the unity and homogenity of the Catholic Church. My point is this: If Protestants have a tru desire for unity, why do they not come back home to the Catholic Church?

 

[gcnuss]

My point is this. No Protestant in the world can trace his roots to prior to 1517. Catholics can trace theors back to Jesus Christ.

Carl,

I disagree completely. As a Lutheran, I know that my roots began with Christ and the apostles and that without the first 1500 years of the Church I would probably be a pagan, worshiping the Nordic gods. I would not know the Triune God. I would not know Scripture. I would not be confessing my faith with the Apostles’, Nicene, and Athanasian creeds. Lutheranism did not develop ex nihilo.

 

[CWBetts]

Carl,

I disagree completely. As a Lutheran, I know that my roots began with Christ and the apostles and that without the first 1500 years of the Church I would probably be a pagan, worshiping the Nordic gods. I would not know the Triune God. I would not know Scripture. I would not be confessing my faith with the Apostles’, Nicene, and Athanasian creeds. Lutheranism did not develop ex nihilo.

Lutheranism devoloped from a disaffected monk who was justly angry over the sale of indulgences, an abuse that was rectified in the Council of Trent, but he went further, he preached heresy, most notably Sola Fide and Sola Scriptura, which go directly against the Scriptures, interestingly enough.

 

[gcnuss]

Lutheranism devoloped from a disaffected monk who was justly angry over the sale of indulgences, an abuse that was rectified in the Council of Trent, but he went further, he preached heresy, most notably Sola Fide and Sola Scriptura, which go directly against the Scriptures, interestingly enough.

Carl,

Lutherans are Christians and all Christians trace their origins to Christ. It cannot be otherwise. If we denied that Christ is the foundation of our faith, we would not be Christian. The Catholic Church recognizes us as Christians, albeit as “separated brethren.” Luther did not change Christians into non-Christians i.e., he did not remove Christ as the center of the faith.

The actions of that “disaffected monk” were the impetus for reform within the Catholic Church, although Luther was unable to respond to that reform since he died 17 years before the Council of Trent completed its work. One can only speculate what might have happened had he lived to see it.

Finally, I offer a couple of quotes from A Covenant Between the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, Northwestern Ohio Synod and the Roman Catholic Church, Diocese of Toledo:

While remaining committed to our respective traditions and communions, we humbly acknowledge that both Catholics and Lutherans have contributed to the divisions which exist between our two traditions. Both faith communities recognize our need for that healing love of which our Lord is the source. Therefore, we enter as equal partners into this covenant in order to serve the Lord by whose name we are known, the Lord who has called us to be one (John 17:21).

and

Our Common Confession

We share the faith confessed in the catholic creeds of the Church;

1. That God is one, revealed to us as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
2. That in his death and resurrection, our Lord Jesus Christ has triumphed over sin and death, that death no longer has dominion over him (Romans 6:9), and that he is the living center of our faith and the savior of the world.
3. That the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification signed by our respective church bodies confesses our common faith that by grace alone, in faith in Christ’s saving work and not because of any merit on our part, we are accepted by God and Christ’s saving work and receive the Holy Spirit, who renews hour hearts while equipping and calling us to good works (JDDJ, Paragraph 15).
   …

The full covenant emphasizes what we hold in common which predates the Reformation.
It also calls us to continued conversation and study as we look to the time when we will again be united.

 

[SpiritMeadow]

My point is this. No Protestant in the world can trace his roots to prior to 1517. Catholics can trace theors back to Jesus Christ. Some Baptists domake the claim thet they can trce theirs back to the NT as well, but there is a lack of any evidence, and in thruth have thier origins in the 17th century. The Orthodox question is somewhat more complex, as both the Orthodox Churches and the Catholic Church have claims of Apostolic Authority to the New Testament, though the Orthodox Churches are insular and lack the unity and homogenity of the Catholic Church. My point is this: If Protestants have a tru desire for unity, why do they not come back home to the Catholic Church?

Your conclusion that “no Protestant can trace his roots prior to 1517” is your church’s interpretation of scripture which you apparently adhere to. There are other perfectly good explanations that Protestants believe that see things quite differently. Again you accept your Church’s interepretation that you can trace yourself back to Christ. There are many, including most biblical experts who would disagree with that as well. In any case, Rome emerged at some point as the winner of the internicine wars of heresy. I won’t quarrel with that. Whether it bore any resemblance by then of the original house churches in either structure or belief is a matter of great dispute. Protestants, in their many guises cannot “come home” to your church, because frankly they think it wrong thinking in way too many ways. That would seem obvious. You expect them just to drop their complaints and what, just accept that Rome rules Christendom? You can’t seriously expect that will happen. There will HAVE to be considerations given on both sides, and perhaps on some issues there never will be a willingness for either side to give in.

Again, this is so obvious, I wonder at the point of your thread. Is it only to exhibit the same tired rhetoric that “we believe the RCC is first, best and only?” That gets us exactly no where.