Catholic protestants?

[awatkins69]

Kind of interested in both. Let me know if you find anything. I’m just wondering. Thanks.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

LOL…

You post makes me think of Dirty Harry. I love it in Sudden Impact when Dirty Harry and this other cop are looking at a victim of multiple gun shots and there’s just carnage all over the place. The other cop is sucking down a hot dog and badgering Harry about how Harry must be a cold sucker because the blood, rif raff, crime, and all the drama doesn’t get to him. Clint Eastwood turns to the cop and says:

{sarcastically} No, this stuff isn’t gettin’ to me. The knifings, the beatings, old ladies being bashed in the head for their Social Security checks, teachers being thrown out of a fourth-floor window because they don’t give As, that doesn’t bother me a bit. Or this job, either. Having to wade through the scum of this city, being swept away by bigger and bigger waves of corruption, apathy and red tape. Nah, that doesn’t bother me. But you know what does bother me? You know what makes me really sick to my stomach? Is watching you stuff your face with those hot dogs. Nobody, I mean NOBODY puts ketchup on a hot dog

There is NOTHING wrong with cheese ‘n’ apple pie! Or lemon with fish!!!

If you have ever put ketchup on anything you have no leg to stand on.

huffs, flounces off

 

[AmbroseSJ]

I was wondering if, around the time of the Reformation, there were any Catholic protestants? That is, examples of Catholics who tried to remain within the Church but accepted Luther’s or any other Reformation doctrines (sola fide, sola scriptura, etc). How did Luther’s propositions affect theologians inside the Church? Were any influenced by them? Thanks.

PS Other than maybe Erasmus.

I think the Protestant Reformation had a huge impact on Catholicism,but not in the way your question seems to suggest. IOW, Catholicism did not ingest any of the Protestant Tenets and somehow adapt them to Catholicism. What DID happen though was the Counter-Reformation. A huge outpouring of affirmation in all of the Basic Catholic Doctrines. There were subtle influences as well. Church design began to be influenced by the Protestant Churches. (having pews.) Private reading of Scripture in the vernacular once again became normative for Catholics. But by and large, Catholicism distanced itself from Protestant theology whenever possible. It rarely sought common ground, although by the late 17th century common ground between Catholics and Protestants was often a basis for apologetic writings.

But I’ve never read or observed any direct influence in the immediate post-reformation time frame.

But if you look at the 18th and 19th century, you might be surprised to learn that Anglican Bishop Joseph Butler, with his book The Analogy of Religion, was a considerable influence on John Henry Newman. He made use of this Protestant’s ground breaking work, as well as refining it and developing it further himself.

However, that is hardly the same as saying a Protestant doctrine influenced a Catholic doctrine. What it really means is that Catholics recognized good sound reasoning even if it was by Protestants.

 

[valient_Lucy]

Well, St. Thomas Aquinas believed that truth is truth, wherever it comes from, and studied the writings of Jews and pagans. It’s possible that Catholic theologians did the same with Protestants, but I don’t know if that was the case. St. Teresa of Avila, one of the most important theologians of the Counter-Reformation, didn’t know what the Protestants taught.

 

[awatkins69]

Good posts. Thanks.

Anybody know of intellectual debate or discussion amongst Catholic and Lutheran scholastics? Was there any intellectual dialogue amongst the two at all?

 

[Protestant101]

I don’t think you can be a “catholic protestant” anymore than you can be an “Atheist who believes in God”.

I think that if the person were a bit of both, the label might fit. Perhaps some “in the valley of decision” could be called that.

I believe that history would show how various doctrines from both sides may have affected the other side.

 

[Protestant101]

Well, St. Thomas Aquinas believed that truth is truth, wherever it comes from, and studied the writings of Jews and pagans. It’s possible that Catholic theologians did the same with Protestants, but I don’t know if that was the case. St. Teresa of Avila, one of the most important theologians of the Counter-Reformation, didn’t know what the Protestants taught.

You make a good point! I have always been taught, and have always believed that we can learn from one another.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Yuck. Probably put salt on watermelon, too. Yeesh…what’s next? chocolate cake with catsup? LOL

My grandfather would never have apple pie without a slice of cheese!

 

[awatkins69]

My mom does chili powder and watermelon. Mexican thing. One element of my culture I’m not so fond of, when you go to a party and all the watermelon has been ruined by application of unnecessary amounts of chili powder to the entire bowl of fruit.

 

[Petergee]

I was wondering if, around the time of the Reformation, there were any Catholic protestants? That is, examples of Catholics who tried to remain within the Church but accepted Luther’s or any other Reformation doctrines (sola fide, sola scriptura, etc). How did Luther’s propositions affect theologians inside the Church? Were any influenced by them? Thanks.

PS Other than maybe Erasmus.

Erasmus most certainly was not a Catholic protestant. Protestants did not influence Erasmus. Erasmus influenced Protestants, including in ways he certainly did not intend such as splitting from the Church and inventing novel doctrines. Erasmus was already an old man when protestantism began. His last major work condemned Luther’s new ideas (and Luther had not even invented sola fide and sola scriptura yet).

 

[Protestant101]

There is NOTHING wrong with cheese ‘n’ apple pie! Or lemon with fish!!!

If you have ever put ketchup on anything you have no leg to stand on.

huffs, flounces off

LOL; funny post! Now I have a SERIOUS question. Am I a Catholic Protestant because I like Catholics? Or, am I a “heretic” like the poster above seems to say? I don’t think I would be a Catholic Protestant, because of this - would I? What am I…Can someone tell me?

 

[Petergee]

one who was seen breaking with Church teaching risked losing one’s head at the time. Those were indeed dark days when Medieval men with Medieval mindsets dealt with the world in Medieval ways.

As opposed to our “light and sunny” days when the leaders of “civilised” nations endorse deliberately killing tens of thousands of innocent civilians with a nuclear bomb, or legalised abortion, euthanasia, promoting sodomy etc.etc.?

John Hus does come to mind as one who considered himself Catholic - and very much in line with Church teaching - until the time of his trial and execution for being an heresiarch. Though he predated Luther (and indeed had much influence on the German), so that’s not quite what you asked. While Hus opposed the Church on a number of points, he did support the office of the papacy (at least enough to declare neutrality during the papal schism between Gregory XII and Benedict XIII),

I think his “neutrality” was more along the lines of “a pox on both their houses”.

and he was primarily condemned for his emulation of Wycliffe’s teachings, his opposition to Crusades in general, and his opposition to using indulgences to fund Crusades.

I thought his heterodox teachings about the Eucharist were condsidered his most serious crimes.

 

[Petergee]

Great quote, pre-1054 when the Catholic Church was ripped in two…I wonder what Augustine would’ve thought and said at that point?

“There are many other things which rightly keep me in the bosom of the Catholic Church. The consent of the people and nations keeps me, her authority keeps me, inaugurated by miracles, nourished in hope, enlarged by love, and established by age. The succession of priests keep me, from the very seat of the apostle Peter (to whom the Lord after his resurrection gave charge to feed his sheep) down to the present episcopate [of Pope Siricius]” (Against the Letter of Mani Called “The Foundation” 5 [A.D. 397]).

“[On this matter of the Pelagians] two councils have already been sent to the Apostolic See [the bishop of Rome], and from there rescripts too have come. The matter is at an end; would that the error too might be at an end!” (Sermons 131:10 [A.D. 411]).

 

[Petergee]

the Council of Trent took in many of the Reformers criticisms of corruption etc, though not so much theological changes.

Criticising corruption in the Church is not a protestant idea! From the first century to the 21st, untold millions of faithful orthodox devout Catholics including many bishops and popes, have criticised corruption in the Church and done their best to stamp it out.

The most that you could say is that the desertion of millions of Catholics to protestantism was the “wake-up call” that prompted the Church authorities to take much firmer action against corruption, which many loyal Catholics had been calling for for at least 200 years with little success.

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

LOL; funny post! Now I have a SERIOUS question. Am I a Catholic Protestant because I like Catholics? Or, am I a “heretic” like the poster above seems to say? I don’t think I would be a Catholic Protestant, because of this - would I? What am I…Can someone tell me?

Why not ask God?

 

[JonNC]

Properly speaking anyone who adheres to Reformation theology, according to the Catholic Church, is a heretic.

I don’ think this is exactly accurate. My understanding is that one has to have been Catholic to be a heretic, according to Catholic teaching. So, according to the CC, Luther, once a Catholic, became a heretic. I, a life-long Lutheran, am not a heretic, since I was never Catholic.
But I might be wrong.

Jon

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Is this an attempt to speculate what he would’ve said?

“There are many other things which rightly keep me in the bosom of the Catholic Church. The consent of the people and nations keeps me, her authority keeps me, inaugurated by miracles, nourished in hope, enlarged by love, and established by age. The succession of priests keep me, from the very seat of the apostle Peter (to whom the Lord after his resurrection gave charge to feed his sheep) down to the present episcopate [of Pope Siricius]” (Against the Letter of Mani Called “The Foundation” 5 [A.D. 397]).

“[On this matter of the Pelagians] two councils have already been sent to the Apostolic See [the bishop of Rome], and from there rescripts too have come. The matter is at an end; would that the error too might be at an end!” (Sermons 131:10 [A.D. 411]).

 

[Usagi]

Is this an attempt to speculate what he would’ve said?

They’re quotations of things he did say, which at least imply that he would have stood with Rome had he lived at the time of the Great Schism.

Usagi

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Hi Usagi,

Of course I know what Augustine was talking about from the quotes. I kid you. But the fact is, Augustine was talking about the Catholic Church. The UNITED Catholic Church of his day that included East and West, unified Christendom as an organic whole, not a church cleaved in two in 1054. If you perceive he was only talking about the West and thought only the West to be the Catholic Church in the fifth century (which I don’t think you thought)…Would Augustine have sided up with the excommunication of the Patriarch of Constantinople by legates in such an inappropriate and audacious fashion and accepted the indulgences, treasury of merit, and all the other medievel stuff? Maybe so? He was always pretty loyal to the papacy but also loved his own jurisdiction and domain… Blessings to you…

They’re quotations of things he did say, which at least imply that he would have stood with Rome had he lived at the time of the Great Schism.

Usagi

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Man, that sounds pretty rough, dude! No thank yuh!

Are you born and raised in San Berdu? Not a Dodgers fan r ya!?

My mom does chili powder and watermelon. Mexican thing. One element of my culture I’m not so fond of, when you go to a party and all the watermelon has been ruined by application of unnecessary amounts of chili powder to the entire bowl of fruit.