Catholic Question Regarding Upcoming Marriage

[rthibideau]

Hello I hope I have found the right place to get this answered.

My fiance and I are getting married in July. We recently had our first Christmas with our families together. Her mother told us afterward that she would not be attending out wedding because I am Catholic and I can’t legally get married. This is really wierd because I am not and she (my fiance’s mother) is. I didn’t know where she got this idea. The only thing I can think of is that my mom says that my biological dad (who I haven’t seen in 25 years) had me baptised in a Catholic church. However I have been going to United Church of Canada since my mom remarried. Does anyone know what is going on here? My fiance is very upset and frankly so am I.

 

[armywife]

Well, I guess technically you are Catholic since you were baptized in a Catholic church. But since you (I assume) didn’t receive any other sacraments and weren’t raised in the church I don’t think it’s the same situation as if you were raised Catholic, had all the sacraments and then decided to marry outside the church. Then she would have a valid reason for not attending the wedding.

Are you two getting married in the Catholic Church? If not, that could be what she means. She couldn’t attend because her daughter, not you, is deciding to be married outside the Church. That is a serious problem in our view.

 

[Rawb]

It’s the baptism…a sticky situation.

Technically, since you were baptised in a Catholic Church, by Church law you are Catholic. Catholics are required to get married in the Catholic Church. If you’ve been married before and haven’t gotten that annulled, then you are still married to your first wife even if you’ve had a civil divorce.

The argument could be made that since you never received any other Sacraments, and weren’t raised in The Church, you are not Catholic, but it doesn’t sound as if that will satisfy your fiancee’s mother. Were you ever baptised in another church? Or did you ever formally remove yourself from the Catholic Church?

Is your fiancee Catholic?

 

[rthibideau]

No my fiance is not Catholic either, her mother became Catholic a few years ago.

 

[puzzleannie]

I guess you would have to ask your relative to explain her thinking, as the whole thing is rather confusing to me. If you are a Catholic you are bound by Catholic canon law on marriage, unless you have formally defected (left the Church), in which case you follow the rules for your own religion. If you fiance is Catholic, he is bound by Catholic laws on marriage. To ask him to disregard them is to do and extreme injustice, and is not a good way to start a marriage. Just because the mother is Catholic does not mean the children are automatically Catholic. I don’t know what this would have to do with legality, unless things are different in Canada.

 

[armywife]

That kind of changes things. If she converted after her kids were already adults, then I’m not sure why she’s objecting. As a convert she has learned that Catholics have to be married in the Church and probably see’s you as Catholic because of your baptism.

It would be really nice of you to talk with her priest about this so she could hear it from him. Just a thought.

 

[rthibideau]

That kind of changes things. If she converted after her kids were already adults, then I’m not sure why she’s objecting. As a convert she has learned that Catholics have to be married in the Church and probably see’s you as Catholic because of your baptism.

It would be really nice of you to talk with her priest about this so she could hear it from him. Just a thought.

that is a good idea, thanks. my minister has done some work with him i think.

 

[Rawb]

The Code of Canon Law says:

Canon 1086.1 A marriage is invalid when one of the two persons was baptised in the catholic Church or received into it and has not by a formal act defected from it, and the other was not baptised.

…
Canon 1124 Without the express permission of the competent authority, marriage is prohibited between two baptised persons, one of whom was baptised in the catholic Church or received into it after baptism and has not defected from it by a formal act, the other of whom belongs to a Church or ecclesial community not in full communion with the catholic Church.

Canon 1125 The local Ordinary can grant this permission if there is a just and reasonable cause. He is not to grant it unless the following conditions are fulfilled:

Canon 1125.1 the catholic party is to declare that he or she is prepared to remove dangers of defecting from the faith, and is to make a sincere promise to do all in his or her power in order that all the children be baptised and brought up in the catholic Church;

Canon 1125.2 the other party is to be informed in good time of these promises to be made by the catholic party, so that it is certain that he or she is truly aware of the promise and of the obligation of the catholic party.

Canon 1125.3 both parties are to be instructed about the purposes and essential properties of marriage, which are not to be excluded by either contractant.

Canon 1126 It is for the Episcopal Conference to prescribe the manner in which these declarations and promises, which are always required, are to be made, and to determine how they are to be established in the external forum, and how the non-catholic party is to be informed of them.

So your marriage is invalid until/unless you formally defect from the Catholic Church, which would require you to write a letter to your Bishop announcing your defection.

 

[stelline]

Um, :whacky: let me see if I can get this straight:

You: baptized Catholic but non-practicing

fiance: non-Catholic (never baptized in the Catholic Church)

You are getting married in a non-Catholic church.

If all of the above is correct, then your MIL is concerned that you, as a person once baptized in the Catholic Church, ought to be married in the Catholic Church or at least have arrangements for a priest to preside or co-preside at the marriage for it to be considered valid.

The fact that it would be (technically, according to the Church) a “mixed” marriage has nothing to do with it. Mixed marriages happen all the time. I know you do not consider yourself to be Catholic, but the Church does and your MIL is coming from that viewpoint.

I don’t think she is trying to be mean, she just doesn’t want to show support for something she may believe to be wrong. I would have all of you talk to a good priest to figure this out.

Oddly enough, if you had never been baptized Catholic there would be no problem whatsoever regarding being married outside the Catholic Church. There is a lot of reasons for all this, but unfortunately I don’t have the time to digress.

My own husband didn’t attend his mother’s wedding because it outside the Church. But it that was because the Church refused to allow the ceremony since her current “husband” is still validly married to another woman.

 

[Seatuck]

I think talking to a priest and possibly going to the Diocese would be helpful.

 

[Sina]

My initial thoughts were to ask whether you or your fiance have ever been married before?

I think it is kind of funny that you have to formally defect from the Catholic church with a letter to the Bishop. Have you ever considered going to a Catholic church rather than the United Church? What does your fiancee think about her mother’s conversion to the Catholic Faith?

 

[IrishAm]

Oh, and just to clarify things, none of this would have anything to do with your marriage being “legal.” One religion or another may not consider it “valid” for any number of reasons, but only the laws of the land determine what is legal . . .

We Catholics consider a whole lot of marriages “not valid” – but they are certainly LEGAL.

 

[Phemie]

I would check this out with a priest but I don’t think someone who didn’t even know he was baptized Catholic and was raised in the United Church and considers himself a member of that Church is held the same standards as someone who was raised in the Church.

 

[Just_Lurking]

I would check this out with a priest but I don’t think someone who didn’t even know he was baptized Catholic and was raised in the United Church and considers himself a member of that Church is held the same standards as someone who was raised in the Church.

Think about it from the point of view of getting an annulment for the marriage. All that is needed is the Catholic baptismal certificate and the marriage license showing that the marriage took place outside the Catholic Church. No proof of other sacraments or involvement in the Catholic Church is necessary.

So, since they don’t hand out annulments for valid marriage, it would appear that someone who didn’t even know he was baptized a Catholic is held to the same standards as regards the canonical form for valid marriage.

 

[1ke]

I would check this out with a priest but I don’t think someone who didn’t even know he was baptized Catholic and was raised in the United Church and considers himself a member of that Church is held the same standards as someone who was raised in the Church.

No. If he is baptized Catholic then he is a Catholic. Being brought out of the Catholic Church as a child does not negate that. In fact, it is part of the reason that formal defection is required to release one from the marriage laws of the Church.

If a Catholic baptism can be proven, then he is certainly a Catholic and bound by the marriage laws of the Church.

 

[rthibideau]

My initial thoughts were to ask whether you or your fiance have ever been married before?

I think it is kind of funny that you have to formally defect from the Catholic church with a letter to the Bishop. Have you ever considered going to a Catholic church rather than the United Church? What does your fiancee think about her mother’s conversion to the Catholic Faith?

No, neither one of us has ever been married before. I’ve honestly never considered going to the Catholic Church - my dad was the one who was Catholic and my parents divorced when I was young due to issues with him being abusive. I have not seen him since. My mom remarried and we started going to church (UCC) with my stepdad. The Catholic church is not something I ever considered but the only time I’ve been in one was a boy scout meeting that was held in the basement.

My fiancee is not too wild about her mother’s conversion to be honest. There have been some other things she has done including asking for money to go to Rome when my fiancee (and me too of course) have been saving our pennies for the wedding and for the down payment on a house. This latest uproar over the wedding is kind of the straw that broke the camel’s back I think. We are planning to have the wedding in our home town (we don’t live there anymore as work is out West) so the family can make it more easily.

 

[joandarc2008]

Rthib- Please don’t hold the actions of a few against all of us. I was raised both UCC and Roman Catholic as my parents were a mixed marriage that is now 33 years strong. I found my home here in teh Roman Catholic Church. However, we all find our homes and our relationships with God however He means us too.

I went through much with my in-laws and in the end it just got to the point where my dh does not have a relationship with his parents anymore. It is sad but it is what was done. I will be praying for you and your soon-to-be-family and I just wanted to leave you with the following thought:

A man leaves his parents and clings to his wife, the two become one.

Paraphrased but only one cup of coffee so far this morning.

God Bless,

 

[Prometheum_x]

All valid baptisms are Catholic baptisms, thus any infant who is validly baptized is, at least for a time, Catholic. It would be interesting to look up the relevant canon law on the question of leaving the Church. I thought I had recalled reading that formally becoming a member of another denomination was sufficient (without needing to send a letter to the bishop).

 

[1ke]

I thought I had recalled reading that formally becoming a member of another denomination was sufficient (without needing to send a letter to the bishop).

Not exactly. Deacon Cameron (who is a tribunal canonist) explains it very well in these two posts:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=918648&postcount=6

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=2173511&postcount=20

And, here is a memo clarifying this for canonists:

clsa.org/content/files/USCCB_memo_2006_0405.pdf