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fix
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I believe that is at the center of much of the battle.
"Catholic Rainbow Parents" in MN, openly protest Vatican teaching on homosexuality
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aria13
Guest
Orogeny:
I thought I did answer your pedophile vs homosexual question. One is genetic disorder that cannot be corrected, as many other genetic abnormalities cannot be be affected or corrected with counseling, medicines, etc. The other is a mental illness, which in some cases can be treated. But not always. It’s also a crime to have sex with a child. Would someone choose to be a pedophile? I highly doubt it. But, can you forgive a pedophile? Forced sex with a child is or lusting after a child/child porn is much different than sex with another consenting adult or adult porn. Consenting being the key word. You did say you could interchange words homosexual/pedophile. I said that you wrote they were much the same. I was kind.
I did read that your sister was a lesbian. Do you pray for her daily for her to change? Has she? Do you believe she is going to hell if she doesn’t change? What I asked, sir, was would you dump your friends. You can’t choose your siblings…she’s there forever. But your friends, well that’s a choice. I’m sorry if I judged you for that, but your display of words shows that you are not too accepting, and if they didn’t change would you accept their love as a friend? And if it’s a male friend, would you want that friendship? Does that make you bad in the eyes of the church for befriending a gay person? I’m genuinely curious about your ideas on this…and not for arguments sake.
I don’t know if you’re married or in a monogamous relationship, maybe you’ve said, and I’m just too lazy to go back and find it, but if you are, and you love your wife/girlfriend, is sex with her all that easy to dismiss, turn away from? When you love someone, sex is a wonderful expression of that love. You don’t have to answer that, because I’m really not all that interersted in you sex life, I just want you to think about your dismissing a gay person’s love for their partner as something that should be ignored and they should be chaste. I don’t think it’s all that easy, no matter what your sexual preference. Your experience with gay people is rather sad. Just because those that you know have many partners, does not mean that all do. The gay couples that I know have been together for years. I also don’t know the ages of the gay people you know. I you look at the percentage of heterosexual people running around having sex with numerous partners, in particular high school/college age people, is any different for gay people? Probably not, but once they reach an age where a life partner is something that seems desirable, it changes. Hopefully. I’m sure your sister is probably scared about many things…your loving her unconditionally could be one.
As for the “cured” homosexual…I have never spoken to one that has said he/she is “cured.” One gentleman told the church he was, spoke in front of the congregation, got married, had a child, and within 4 years was back with his partner. He told me he was miserable living a lie. He felt terrible for his wife…he was never a true husband to her, no matter how hard he tried and prayed. Another man, whose partner just died from AIDS, lived as a “straight” man for years. Married, has children, had a well established business, and…oh my, is Catholic. He couldn’t live like that any longer…it almost killed him. He was so depressed about living the lie, he was suicidal. Is that what the church wants from it’s gay members? To make them so miserable they’ll just go away permanently? I don’t just mean the Catholic church either, they’re getting this from all areas of faith.
Imagine going through life denying what you are. Could you deny that you’re straight? For those that think that gayness is a choice, could you choose to be gay? I couldn’t!!! Do they commit suicide because it’s the only way out of a lifelong lie, and a life of denial? No one will know that, because those that commit suicide are dead. One can only assume…and that’s not good.
Yingyangmom: The Church used to teach suicide victims were damned to hell. As did the Missouri Lutheran church. That’s why suicide victims could not be buried on Holy Ground. It’s only been in the last few years that the Vatican changed that idea, after it was found many times over that a person who commits suicide is emotionally unstable, very ill for whatever reason.
I must go…have a wonderul day, everyone!
I thought I did answer your pedophile vs homosexual question. One is genetic disorder that cannot be corrected, as many other genetic abnormalities cannot be be affected or corrected with counseling, medicines, etc. The other is a mental illness, which in some cases can be treated. But not always. It’s also a crime to have sex with a child. Would someone choose to be a pedophile? I highly doubt it. But, can you forgive a pedophile? Forced sex with a child is or lusting after a child/child porn is much different than sex with another consenting adult or adult porn. Consenting being the key word. You did say you could interchange words homosexual/pedophile. I said that you wrote they were much the same. I was kind.
I did read that your sister was a lesbian. Do you pray for her daily for her to change? Has she? Do you believe she is going to hell if she doesn’t change? What I asked, sir, was would you dump your friends. You can’t choose your siblings…she’s there forever. But your friends, well that’s a choice. I’m sorry if I judged you for that, but your display of words shows that you are not too accepting, and if they didn’t change would you accept their love as a friend? And if it’s a male friend, would you want that friendship? Does that make you bad in the eyes of the church for befriending a gay person? I’m genuinely curious about your ideas on this…and not for arguments sake.
I don’t know if you’re married or in a monogamous relationship, maybe you’ve said, and I’m just too lazy to go back and find it, but if you are, and you love your wife/girlfriend, is sex with her all that easy to dismiss, turn away from? When you love someone, sex is a wonderful expression of that love. You don’t have to answer that, because I’m really not all that interersted in you sex life, I just want you to think about your dismissing a gay person’s love for their partner as something that should be ignored and they should be chaste. I don’t think it’s all that easy, no matter what your sexual preference. Your experience with gay people is rather sad. Just because those that you know have many partners, does not mean that all do. The gay couples that I know have been together for years. I also don’t know the ages of the gay people you know. I you look at the percentage of heterosexual people running around having sex with numerous partners, in particular high school/college age people, is any different for gay people? Probably not, but once they reach an age where a life partner is something that seems desirable, it changes. Hopefully. I’m sure your sister is probably scared about many things…your loving her unconditionally could be one.
As for the “cured” homosexual…I have never spoken to one that has said he/she is “cured.” One gentleman told the church he was, spoke in front of the congregation, got married, had a child, and within 4 years was back with his partner. He told me he was miserable living a lie. He felt terrible for his wife…he was never a true husband to her, no matter how hard he tried and prayed. Another man, whose partner just died from AIDS, lived as a “straight” man for years. Married, has children, had a well established business, and…oh my, is Catholic. He couldn’t live like that any longer…it almost killed him. He was so depressed about living the lie, he was suicidal. Is that what the church wants from it’s gay members? To make them so miserable they’ll just go away permanently? I don’t just mean the Catholic church either, they’re getting this from all areas of faith.
Imagine going through life denying what you are. Could you deny that you’re straight? For those that think that gayness is a choice, could you choose to be gay? I couldn’t!!! Do they commit suicide because it’s the only way out of a lifelong lie, and a life of denial? No one will know that, because those that commit suicide are dead. One can only assume…and that’s not good.
Yingyangmom: The Church used to teach suicide victims were damned to hell. As did the Missouri Lutheran church. That’s why suicide victims could not be buried on Holy Ground. It’s only been in the last few years that the Vatican changed that idea, after it was found many times over that a person who commits suicide is emotionally unstable, very ill for whatever reason.
I must go…have a wonderul day, everyone!
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aria13
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Brendan: I don’t consider homosexuality a sin. I know I go against a lot people on that, but to consider a genetic abnormality a sin would be to say that all genetic abnormalities are sins. That’s like saying someone with Tourette’s Syndrome, who, even w/medication can’t quit swearing, is sinning. Care to condemn them as well? Start praying, because maybe we’ll find a cure for all of these genetic disorders. As for alcoholism…live with an alcholic and you’ll know the fullness of addiction. Study it, read up on addictive personalities. Many self-help programs help to switch the addictions to something less damaging. Live with one who won’t admit his addiction, and you’ll see just how much prayer works. Maybe the answer was for me to get out, but that’s not the answer I wanted. I wanted to make it work, I just thought that living would be better than being killed. Believe me, I did my homework on addicitions, prayed, took classes, prayed, cried, prayed, went to counselors, prayed…see a pattern? Prayer was constant, just so no one jumps in and says “you only prayed part of the time?” Don’t lecture me about alcholism…or addictions. I lived it for 23 years. You become quite knowledgable. There are really no similarities between a homosexual and an alcoholic.
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YinYangMom
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Yes I’m aware of that. It’s a wonderful example of how the Catholic Church is continually guided by the Holy Spirit to the fullness of the Truth she protects. Over time the Church learns more and more and grows in Her faith.
With regard to the Church’s position on Homosexuality she has also proven to have grown in Her faith. After extensive study on the topic She has found it necessary to help us make the distinction between the sin and the sinner, just as She helped us to make the distinction between the suicide victim’s mental state at the time of his/her death and thereby recognizing only God knows at that moment whether or not the person uttered a prayer of mercy in the last moments either verbally, mentally or in his/her heart.
So with Her teaching on homosexuality She goes to great care to help us understand the difference between the sin and the sinner, and She is guiding and encouraging us to reach out to all homosexuals to offer Truth and healing. But She can never, ever go against God’s own words as so clearly stated in the Old and New Testaments regarding the acts of sexual promiscuity. Those who are calling for the Church to accept homosexuals entirely, including their actions, do not differentiate themselves between the condition of SSA and the actions and they don’t understand that the Chuch is not in the position to overrule God in matters of the actions. Actually, the Church can never overrule God.
I understand we have a long way to go in finding the balance needed in reaching out to our afflicted brothers and sisters without bringing scandal upon ourselves and our families. That, I believe, is what the real hang up is for us. But thanks to the guidance of the Church we are beginning to try. All change takes a long, long time to be realized, some still believe suicide victims instantly go to hell.
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Brendan
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You are correct. Homosexuality, in the sense of being sexually attracted to those of the same sex is not a sin. It is an Objective Disorder.
It is the behavior that occurs when one so afflicted gives in to that disorder, namely homosexual ACTS that are sinful
We all have inclinations towards sin, myself very much included. Each has their own cross to bear. But it is the giving in to the sinful desires that destroys our relationship with God.
Just as the alcoholic, who generally has a genetic predisposition to alchol, sins (gluttony) when they give in to their predisposition.
The homosexual sins (lust) when they give into theirs.
Each and every person so afflicted can rise above that. They can make an active choice of will NOT to give into sinful desires.
Does a person with Torettes make a choice to swear. A active homosexual makes a choice to engage in homosexual acts.
The person with Tourettes, by defintion, cannot stop themselves. Is it your premise that a person afflicted with SSA must engage in homosexual acts?? That they have no choice over it?
Care to condemn them as well? Start praying, because maybe we’ll find a cure for all of these genetic disorders.
I’m not saying that homosexuals with be ‘cured’ only that they have the ability to excercise self control and live celibate lives.
Guess what, my family HAS been afflicted with alcoholism. That is why I know personnally that a person can rise above it.
Once again, and I would like an answer to these questions.
Can a person rise above these genetic dispositions?
Is it possible that an alcoholic, recognizing the sinful effects their addiction has can forego the use of alcohol.
Is it possible that a homosexual can , recognizing the sinful effect their livestyle has, can forego sexual acts.
You seem to imply that they cannot, that because they have a genetice disposition, that they MUST give into their desires. I strongly disagree, and so does the Church.
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Libero
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The magisterum and the teachings of the church are written by human beings. Even if Jesus told us the teachings, they were still written down by humans, translated by humans, and interpreted by humans. No human is perfect, thus there is clearly possibility that we have made erorr and got our church teachings wrong. We cannot say we know the truth just because we have not changed for hundreds of years.
They are pushing so hard, becuse like it or not, they are treated differently, no matter to what extent they have embraced their homosexuality. You do not have to look far to see that homosexuals are treated unfairly. People beat up homosexuals, because they are homosexual, not becuase they are homosexuals who have had gay sex at any one time in their life. Even on this forum people are constantly complaining about anything to do with homosexuality, the way they dress etc, if a pharmaceutical company gives money to help a homosexual group. Why so much unecessary complaining all the time? Perhaps most of all, the reason may be because so few people realise that it doesn’t really matter what your sexuality is, becuase you can’t change that, its science in nature, its the person that you have become that really counts.
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YinYangMom
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Apparently you do not trust Jesus’ promise that the teachings on faith and morals from the Church would forever be protected by the Holy Spirit so that She could never err on those matters. And you don’t understand what the magesterium is - or at least you reject the notion that the Holy Spirit can work through people. If you don’t trust Jesus and you don’t believe all the examples of how God works through man there’s nothing I can say to change your mind, but it’s still true whether you believe it or not.
It’s mostly because we just don’t know how to reach out without introducing scandal to ourselves and our families. The Church is encouraging us to reach out with Truth and help but we haven’t gotten much specific guidance yet on just how to go about doing that. We are trying though. Change is difficult and slow but it is happening.
The problem lies in the fierce response we get when we do take the initiative to reach out with Truth and help. The homosexual community does not want the Truth, they only want our help if we agree to accept their actions and we just can’t do that. We cannot go against God’s directives. So the discrimination and poor treatment runs both ways here.
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fix
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Christ does not error. What you are implying is moral relativism. What is your authority?
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Brendan
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Christ does not let His Church fall into errror. When the Magisterium binds the faithful to a teaching on Faith and Morals, it does so as the agent of the Holy Spirit. The Magistarium cannot err in these matters.
Humans might err, but the Holy Spirit never does.
The Church claims to know the Truth because she was given the Truth to proclaim to all persons. That includes those to the present day.
It is the one, same Truth that Christ gave the Church. Do you think that little of Christ that He would give Truth to humans and command them to proclaiming, knowing that it would be corrupted and false one day.
Do you think that Christ would abandon His Bride to Falsehood? That Christ has ceased to protect His Bride from error?
The defined Teachings of the Magistarium are written by humans, AUTHORED by God.
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Eireann
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Well Jesus must have accepted scripture when He quoted it, if there was a problem with the written word, Jesus surely wouldn’t have quoted it, because Jesus wouldn’t propagate lies.
In this case below interpreted by Christ, and written through man by the power of The Holy Spirit.
Matt:1 Then Jesus was led by the spirit into the desert, to be tempted by the devil. 2 And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, afterwards he was hungry. 3 And the tempter coming said to him: If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread. 4 Who answered and said: It is written, Not in bread alone doth man live, but in every word that proceedeth from the mouth of God. 5 Then the devil took him up into the holy city, and set him upon the pinnacle of the temple,
6 And said to him: If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down, for it is written: That he hath given his angels charge over thee, and in their hands shall they bear thee up, lest perhaps thou dash thy foot against a stone. 7 Jesus said to him: It is written again: Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God. 8 Again the devil took him up into a very high mountain, and shewed him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them, 9 And said to him: All these will I give thee, if falling down thou wilt adore me. 10 Then Jesus saith to him: Begone, Satan: for it is written, The Lord thy God shalt thou adore, and him only shalt thou serve.
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Eireann
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As many have said being homosexual isn’t the sin, it’s acting on it that is.
Leviticus 13 If any one lie with a man as with a woman, both have committed an abomination, let them be put to death: their blood be upon them
Romans :24 Wherefore God gave them up to the desires of their heart, unto uncleanness, to dishonour their own bodies among themselves. 25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie; and worshipped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26 For this cause God delivered them up to shameful affections. For their women have changed the natural use into that use which is against nature. 27 And, in like manner, the men also, leaving the natural use of the women, have burned in their lusts one towards another, men with men working that which is filthy, and receiving in themselves the recompense which was due to their error. 28 And as they liked not to have God in their knowledge, God delivered them up to a reprobate sense, to do those things which are not convenient; 29 Being filled with all iniquity, malice, fornication, avarice, wickedness, full of envy, murder, contention, deceit, malignity, whisperers, 30 Detractors, hateful to God, contumelious, proud, haughty, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
Matt:4 Who answering, said to them: Have ye not read, that he who made man from the beginning, Made them male and female? And he said: 5 For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife, and they two shall be in one flesh.
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Orogeny
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It is always wrong to have sex with a child and it is always wrong to have sex with another person of the same sex. I don’t care about consent because I’m not into moral relativism. Homosexual sex may be legal, but it is morally wrong.
Here is exactly what I said: “What if I change the term homosexual to pedophile? If we make the concession that pedophilia is a physical disorder for the sake of this discussion, would a pedophile acting out on their desires still be sinfull? After all, they were born that way and who would choose to be a pedophile?”. Where in that paragraph do I mention interchanging the two or equating the term? Are you incapable of understanding a question? Making false claims is not my idea of being kind.
Yes I pray for her daily. No she hasn’t changed. Yes I believe that she is going to hell if she doesn’t change.
I also mentioned in my last post to you that I have several friends who are gay.
Well, as long as the judging is over…
As I mentioned in my last post to you, I have continuing friendship with several gay men. One of them is celebate because he accepts the teaching of the Church. The other two make it difficult at times to remain their friend, but I do. Hopefully one day they will change their ways. The Church would have it no other way.
(continued on next post)
Peace
Tim
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Orogeny
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(continued from previous post)
aria13:
Peace
Tim
You seem to be equating sex with love. I don’t think that if you love someone, you must have sex with them, nor do I think that just because you have sex with someone, you necessarily love them. You seem to be implying that if a homosexual isn’t allowed to have sex with the person of their desire, they aren’t being allowed to love that person.
Who said it has to be easy? It isn’t always easy to be faithful to my wife, but I am.
You are very quick to dismiss my experiences. Since you don’t know me, I think you maybe, just maybe, don’t know what you are talking about. As far as my sister is concerned, I will tell you that you are totally clueless and suggest that you stick to those things you think you know something about.
That obviously means that it has never happened.
The Church wants them to follow Christ. The fact that they are homosexual is not a problem in the Church. Their commission of homosexual acts is sinful and sin separates us from God.
Peace
Tim
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Libero
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There is no need for “authority”, it is an opinion, if I wanted people to accept what I say as fact, then the last place I would be sharing views is here. I dare say you have voiced an opinion without having the “authority” to do so.
This makes no sense, I am not saying Jesus is wrong, merely saying that we may have made error over the past two thousand years is professing certain views, we may not always be correct or know what God meant. We could have made mistakes.
I do trust Jesus, apparently I have not managed to explain my point well enough for you to understand what I mean. The holy spirit can work through people, it can influence people NOT control them. If the Holy Spirit has been working through the church and church figures for so long, why is it that there is such a large difference of opinion between different church and religious figures? Why was the church allowed to be proven wrong, and why has the church been able to undergo such collosal criticism? The church has been wrong many times before, and the Holy Spirit did nothing to stop that happening. Why do we see two equally ranking Cardinals with very different opinions about the use of condoms? Why was our church split in two and then so many different denominations of churches formed?
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Brendan
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Please give examples of where and when the Church taught wrongly on a matter of Faith or Morals.
Because the Church speaks Truth, all those who hide in darkness will oppose her.
Are two Cardinals the Magisterium? Or is it really the College of Bishops with Pontiff of Rome as their Head?
The Church has never made a claim that a Cardinal or Bishop could not teach error. History is full of that (Arius, Nestorius ect…)
But it is in the See of Peter that teaching is protected. And Never has the See of Peter taught error on matters of Faith and Morals.
Then or now.
And this Pope and all the Popes before him, teach that homosexuality is Objectively Disordered, and the practice of homosexual acts is intrinsically evil.
That is the teaching of the Infallible Magisterium, to which all Catholics owe consent of mind and will.
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Eireann
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Well you were talking about humans who wrote scripture erring, when Jesus used scripture that humans wrote inspired by the Holy Spirit.
I’ve given you the examples, sorry you don’t understand. :ehh:
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Libero
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When the church (backed by the pope at the time) claimed that people were guarenteed a place in heaven, should they pay their church a fee, that later went to Rome. People would then receive a peice of paper stating this signed by the pope (called an indulgence).
Really.
That does not really bear any relevance, as I was talking about how the holy spirit acts through religious figures.
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Brendan
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I’ve read all of Tetzel’s work. He made no such claim, or the Pope made no such claim
An Indulgenced action then, as now reduces required purgation. The person already has their ‘place in heaven’, or else an indulgence is meaningless.
That is still Church teaching.
If you hold that the Church ever taught otherwise, please quote the appropriate Church document.
That does not really bear any relevance, as I was talking about how the holy spirit acts through religious figures.
I think, then that we all agree that Cardinals are not infallible. That is why we look to the Magisterium for definitive teaching, not to Cardinals.
Now Cardinals, and all teachers of the Catholic faith, should proclaim what the Magisterium has defined. When they do not, they break their promise to teach.
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Dolores49
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I hope you read my New Post:
“HOMOSEXUALS ADOPTING CHILDREN and its burdens”
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=84692
If you can’t find it, I posted it November 11, 2005 in Moral Theology.
I’m 100% against homosexuals adopting children. I’m an adult daughter of a lesbian, a former Catholic (now deceased).
I’m a happy conservative Catholic, married to the same man for 34 years. The “Rainbow Parents” will have children that will be as conservative as me, I pray.
“HOMOSEXUALS ADOPTING CHILDREN and its burdens”
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=84692
If you can’t find it, I posted it November 11, 2005 in Moral Theology.
I’m 100% against homosexuals adopting children. I’m an adult daughter of a lesbian, a former Catholic (now deceased).
I’m a happy conservative Catholic, married to the same man for 34 years. The “Rainbow Parents” will have children that will be as conservative as me, I pray.
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Libero
Guest
Whilst Tetzel may say so, Luther did, and Luther did start a reformation, if he was so wrong, why was his reformation such a success. Their dispute over the topic became famous throughout Germany. Have you also read all of Luther’s work?
I have no church document, however, this is a subject that I could find quoted in (reliable) history text books used to educate school children. Many historians have supported the idea that indulgences at one time were used incorrectly. Quote the church document, it was one pope centuries ago. I do not know the church document used at the time.
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