Catholic response to James Kennedy’s EE?

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Lazerlike42:
I don’t think I can answer that for a handful of reasons. First, God isn’t gonna do that based on all we know.
We do know that we will receive our particular judgement when we die, and that we will be held accountable for even the smallest of our actions.
As far as what one has to do to live up to it, we have to keep Jesus’ commandments.
Jesus makes that clear enough, doesn’t he? The rich young man asked Jesus, “Teacher, what **good deed ** must I do, to have eternal life”, and Jesus answered, “If you would enter life, keep the commandments."

Jesus commended the rich young man for obeying the commandments of the decalogue. But the rich young man walked away from Jesus when Jesus told him what he must do to be perfect.

Are we guaranteed eternal life if we obey the Ten Commandments?
 
No, because following the 10 commandments doesn’t have anything to do with salvation except on a purely surface level of human understanding. This gets into what I was talking about when I said that it goes much deeper than what we look at as sin.

This needs to be answered with this:
Me!:
Protestants look at sin as breaking some law of God. Through Christ, we are forgiven and God “lets us in” to Heaven in spite of our sin, because Christ sortof drapes Himself over us so God can’t see our sin. That is the common Protestant understanding. The Catholic understanding is that God created us to be something. Through original sin, we became disordered so that in our lives we tend to sin, or in other words, we tend to stray far from the path through which we will be made into what God intends us to. God’s forgiveness is not simply pretending the sin, the disobedience, didn’t happen and “letting us in” to Heaven. Rather, to be united with God in the beatific vision, we must become (or rather be made into by and through Christ) what God intended us to be. Christ does not just come to drape Himself over our sins, but to transform us so that we will truly be righteous and truly be on the path to becoming that which we were intended to. He sanctifies us and literally sets us on that path (initial justification) and helps us to continue on that path so that we may fully be transformed into that which God designed us for.

Now, if not for the fall, we would preternaturally be on that path. However, along with the fall came our concupiscence, our disordered nature which causes us to naturally go along other paths and become other things. Sins are those things which we do which are intrinsically against the proper orientation of man and which intrinsically transform us into something God did not intend for us. However, because we are disordered, we don’t know by nature what we ought to do and what is the right orientation for us. The purpose of God giving the law and giving His various commandments is so that we will know what is intrinsically and naturally correct for us. Through Christ and the Holy Spirit, God takes this a step further and writes the “law” on our hearts. That means literally that He restores what was originally that preternatural understanding of our proper orientation to us, but He does it through supernatural means.

This is why Protestants get confused about works and the law. It is correct that the law is abolished. This is because Christ is the fulfillment of it. Remember, the purpose of the law is to help us to understand what our proper orientation is. Through Christ, that proper orientation is made our nature through Christ and the Holy Spirit. The law really is not binding in the sense that we needn’t follow some law just for the sake of following it and being obedient (although that is a good thing). However, because what we really need is to follow that right path through our proper orientation, the principles that the law conveyed are still valid: they are intrinsic of course. We need still orient ourselves to what is intrinsically correct, however it’s not a matter of following a law. This is why St. Paul writes “all things are lawful for me, but not all things are beneficial.” There is no law strictly speaking. However, to enter the Kingdom of Heaven literally is to become what God intended us to be, and to become that is to be oriented correctly. Being in the state of Grace is literally being oriented correctly and following that path of transformation into what God intends of us. This is why mortal sin requires full consent of the will: it’s the only way to break that state of Grace. Once we are oriented correctly, we know in our hearts what is right and wrong. Mortally sinning is the act of turning toward the disordered, random orientations of concupiscence. However, by us being oriented correctly (in a state of Grace), to actually change that orientation toward transformation into something else requires a full act of the will.
In general, however, keeping the 10 commandments will result in eternal life IF we do it through faith in Christ and accepting of God’s Grace and IF we continue to love one another, to love God, and to seek Him out.
 
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Matt16_18:
What are those things that we must do to be saved?
Have faith and work it out in love. Keep Jesus’ commandments. Be obedient to God.
 
I’d answer both questions with, “It’s none of your be-booping business.” Watch him or her stammer, laugh merrily, and walk away.
 
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Lazerlike42:
… following the 10 commandments doesn’t have anything to do with salvation except on a purely surface level of human understanding
Please explain what this means. How is following the Ten Commandments divorced from our salvation?
In general, however, keeping the 10 commandments will result in eternal life IF we do it through faith in Christ and accepting of God’s Grace and IF we continue to love one another, to love God, and to seek Him out.
Jesus commended the rich young man for keeping the Ten Commandments. Why wasn’t that enough for him to gain eternal life? Or was it?
 
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Matt16_18:
Please explain what this means. How is following the Ten Commandments divorced from our salvation? Jesus commended the rich young man for keeping the Ten Commandments. Why wasn’t that enough for him to gain eternal life? Or was it?
I explained what it means in that quotation.

Also, I think you’re confusing your stories. You’re thinking of the rich man whom Jesus told he had to give up his wealth. This man had to do that for the sole reason that he wouldn’t. In other words, he held his wealth above Christ and wouldn’t give it up for Christ. It was an obstacle to his faith, which is why Christ asked him to give it up. The man that Jesus told to sell all he had is from Matthew 19:16-18. There, Jesus tells the man if he wants to enter into eternal life to keep the commandments. Then he says that the man should sell all he has “if you want to be perfect” [emphasis mine]. So no, we don’t have to give up all we have unless we want to be perfect. We can make it to heaven by just keeping the commandments IF it is done through faith.
 
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Della:
I’d answer both questions with, “It’s none of your be-booping business.” Watch him or her stammer, laugh merrily, and walk away.
A snotty answer like that would certainly shut down all dialogue, and is likely to leave a bad impression. Instead of a slap in the face, why not learn how to answer these questions with charity so that the Protestant can hear what the Catholic Church teaches?

Why not take control of the situation and use it as an opportunity to witness to the truths of the Catholic faith?
 
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Lazerlike42:
I explained what it means in that quotation.
I didn’t understand your explanation.
I think you’re confusing your stories.
I was indeed referring to Matthew’s Gospel and the story of the rich young man of Matt. 19:16-30. Sorry for not making this clear.
Jesus tells the man if he wants to enter into eternal life to keep the commandments. Then he says that the man should sell all he has “if you want to be perfect” [emphasis mine]. So no, we don’t have to give up all we have unless we want to be perfect. We can make it to heaven by just keeping the commandments IF it is done through faith.
If I understand you, your interpretation is that the rich young man had the option of not being perfect. That he could enter eternal life without being perfect. That obeying the Ten Commandments was enough for him to receive eternal life. But if we back up a little in Matthew’s Gospel, we see that Jesus says this about being perfect at the end of the Sermon on the Mount discourse: “You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.” (Matt. 5:48). Jesus is giving his disciples a commandment to be perfect, and he isn’t making it optional.

The rich young man balks when Jesus tells him what he must do to be perfect. I don’t agree that simply obeying the Ten Commandments guarantees our salvation. We must be perfect before we can enter Heaven.“Teacher, what good deed must I do, to have eternal life?” … The young man said to him, “All these [commandments] I have observed; what do I still lack?”
Jesus said to him, "If you would be perfect …”
 
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Matt16_18:
A snotty answer like that would certainly shut down all dialogue, and is likely to leave a bad impression. Instead of a slap in the face, why not learn how to answer these questions with charity so that the Protestant can hear what the Catholic Church teaches?

Why not take control of the situation and use it as an opportunity to witness to the truths of the Catholic faith?
Because sometimes these sorts need a bit of a reality check. I was one of those do-gooder busybodies myself, so I know what makes them tick. A good dose of “get a life” is what some of these people need more than theology lessons.

They aren’t interested in explanations when they take it upon themselves to intrude into another’s life with “none-of-your-business” questions like these. They’re just trying to score points with their handlers. So, why should I give up my shopping time at the mall to try to explain to them what they have no interest in hearing?

I’ve dealt with these kind of “evangelizers” many times. I know when to share the faith and when not to cast my pearls before swine. 😉

And just for those who think this is some new wrinkle amongst Evangelicals, when I was in the Assemblies of God 30+ years ago, we accosted people on buses or out shopping or at work with these very same questions. There’s nothing new here, only new people to run the same old nonsense by. Frankly, at this point in my life, I just want to :yawn: when I see one of them bustle up to me with their “gotcha” questions. It’s so tired and lame.
 
Just as a point that doesn’t really matter, it doesn’t say that the rich man balked at it, it just said that he was sad because he had many posessions. He may have sold them yet been sad at giving them up.

However, we know that we aren’t supposed to literally give everything up. St. Paul clearly tells us that we must, for instance, provide for our families. He also points out that the worker deserves his wages, and even goes so far as to say that he and those sent from him and those who are preaching should receive their fair wages. He says that they refuse wages for the sake of making it easier for people to understand the gospel, but that if they wanted them they were deserving of them. Therefore, we know that we don’t need to give up everything if we want to make it to Heaven.

Also, we HAVE to take into context what is going on. For instance, as I explained the rich man needed to give up his wealth solely because he wouldn’t. This can be confusing at first. I’ll try to make it simple. Say that Johnny loves God. He keeps all the commandments, and tries to follow God with all his heart. But say that Johnny also loves tv. He watches tv all the time. He can’t stay away from tv, and it keeps him from going to church, and from spending time in prayer, and from going out and doing charity. For him, he needs to give up tv. Now tv isn’t itself sinful. It might not be to you or me, but to him it was because it was a barrier between him and God, so much so that if Jesus asked him to give up the tv he wouldn’t or would have avery very hard time with it. It’s these things Jesus asks us to give up, because we can’t have anything in our lives that we would put before God. The rich man would put money before God, so Christ asked him to give it up. To him, it was sinful. The reason Christ said its hard for a rich man to get to Heaven is because it’s hard to be a rich man and not let that money get in the way of God. It’s hard to make that much money and still devote time to God even. He’s not telling everyone we have to go be poor. In fact, he’s accomplishing SO much more. He’s teaching us a lesson that can be applied from anything from money to tv to even our families, to anything that is a barrier between us and God.

As far as my explanation, I’ll try to simplify it in another post.
 
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Della:
Because sometimes these sorts need a bit of a reality check. I was one of those do-gooder busybodies myself, so I know what makes them tick. A good dose of “get a life” is what some of these people need more than theology lessons.

They aren’t interested in explanations when they take it upon themselves to intrude into another’s life with “none-of-your-business” questions like these. They’re just trying to score points with their handlers. So, why should I give up my shopping time at the mall to try to explain to them what they have no interest in hearing?

I’ve dealt with these kind of “evangelizers” many times. I know when to share the faith and when not to cast my pearls before swine. 😉

And just for those who think this is some new wrinkle amongst Evangelicals, when I was in the Assemblies of God 30+ years ago, we accosted people on buses or out shopping or at work with these very same questions. There’s nothing new here, only new people to run the same old nonsense by. Frankly, at this point in my life, I just want to :yawn: when I see one of them bustle up to me with their “gotcha” questions. It’s so tired and lame.
I would agree to a point but say to be careful with this line of thinking. We must ALWAYS be charitable, no matter what for one thing. Get a life would never be an acceptable thing to say or imply to a person. Also, remember that many of these people are out there on buses and all over sharing their faith because they truly feel its important and they truly love everyone and want what’s best for them. Tim Staples used to do that with the Assembly of God and he was doing it because he truly wanted to help people.
 
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Matt16_18:
James Kennedy’s “Evangelical Explosion” (EE) trains Evangelical Protestants to proselytize Catholics with these questions:“Suppose that you were to die tonight and stand before God and he were to say to you, ‘Why should I let you into my heaven?’ What would you say?”

And

“I would be interested in what you think the entrance requirements for anyone to get into heaven are. What would you say God’s requirements are for you to get into heaven?”
What would you say is the correct Catholic response to these questions?
The same thing that I say at the elevations during Mass. When I am in font of Him every time I’m at Mass. “My Lord, My God, My ALL”
 
****“Suppose that you were to die tonight and stand before God and he were to say to you, ‘Why should I let you into my heaven?’ What would you say?”

I would say you should not Lord, because I am unworthy, and not Holy to stand in your sight, because I have not lived yet a Holy Life, I deserve Purgatory so I am purified of the stains or rust on my soul for taking self over you.
However, since he is merciful more than just, I would beg for pardon, however I would except where he has judged me to be. **

Sara**
 
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Della:
I was one of those do-gooder busybodies myself …
Lol! 😃

So what kind of answers did you get from Catholics when you accosted them on the street? Was the inspired witnessing of Catholics the reason why you converted? 😉
 
Now the explanation.

What makes something a sin? Is it a sin just because God says so, or is it “more” than that? Of course if God says something is a sin it is matter of factly a sin and that is enough for us to know it’s a sin. However, why does God define it as a sin? Does he arbitrarily make rules just for the sake of doing so? Or does he make a bunch of rules for us to follow to test our loyalty to him? Well the answer to both of these questions is no.

God made us for a purpose, and that purpose is unity with Him. He made us to be with Him. Our goal in life is to attain unity with God. Some things by their very nature intrinsically help to unify us with God. Prayer is on of these things. Some things intrinsically seperate us from God, not just because He said so but because by their very nature they do. These things God calls sins.

When God made Adam and Eve, He didn’t tell them what things helped unify them with Him and what things seperated them because they knew preternaturally, which means that they knew in a way which was not even intellectual but their entire nature, almost in a way their “instincts” were geared toward those things and against the other things. In other words, they just naturally did what was good and didn’t know even that any other way of life existed. However, God also made us to be free and have a choice in everything, so He put the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the garden of Eden so that Adam and Eve could choose. They chose the tree, and got that knowledge that another way of life existed.

When they ate of the tree, their nature changed. Before, they naturally did what was geared toward unity with God. After, they became disordered so that they didn’t naturally do anything. Instead, they just did whatever seemed good to them. All their ancestors were also disordered like this. Sometimes what they did was what helped to unify them with God. Sometimes they did what seperated them. The never knew which was which.

But God wanted His people to be unified with Him. So He made up the Law. The Law was a guide for the people so they could know what helped unify them and what helped seperate them. It told them what the difference is. It was a guide for people so they could choose God if they wanted, since without that guide they would have no idea what was what. This is why St. Paul wrote that he didn’t know sin except for the law, and that the law exposed sin.

Unfortunately, people were so messed up that they couldn’t do what was right even when they knew what it was! So God sent Christ. One of the things Christ did was make a sacrifice for the sins people commited so they wouldn’t count against them. This is the thing that people talk about the most when it comes to Christ. However, Christ did a few other things.

One thing Christ did is write the law on our hearts. This means that he restored that natural way of being to us that Adam and Eve had that made them naturally do what unified them with God. People lost that through Adam and Eve’s sin. Jesus put that natural orientation to what unifies us back in our hearts. He also gave us strength through the Holy Spirit to do those things. See, even though we naturally know what is unifying, like Adam and Eve did, we still are disordered so that we don’t always want to do it like they did in the first place. Jesus gives us the strength to do what we know will unify us with God.

That’s why the 10 commandments don’t matter technically. All they are is guide for us to know what is naturally unifying with God and what is naturally seperating. We have this in our hearts now through Christ. We need to do these things, because they naturally unify us with God, but we don’t need to do them because the law says so. We only have the law as a written guide of what unifies us and what doesn’t. The law doesn’t make something a sin. A sin is naturally a sin. The law helps us understand what is sin, or it did before Christ wrote it on our hearts and made us naturally know. It also helps people that aren’t baptized know what unifies them with God, but it isn’t what makes something right or wrong.
 
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Lazerlike42:
I would agree to a point but say to be careful with this line of thinking. We must ALWAYS be charitable, no matter what for one thing. Get a life would never be an acceptable thing to say or imply to a person. Also, remember that many of these people are out there on buses and all over sharing their faith because they truly feel its important and they truly love everyone and want what’s best for them. Tim Staples used to do that with the Assembly of God and he was doing it because he truly wanted to help people.
Sure, there are those who think they are doing God’s work, but many are doing it out of FEAR not out of loving concern. They want to proselytize Catholics because they think us easy prey to their shock tactics. Jesus never asked such stupid questions of people. He talked to people not challenged them to “put up or shut up”. We don’t have to answer every nonsensical hypothetical question any anti-Catholic bigot can cook up.

I’ve talked with many Evangelicals who would never dream of grabbing people off the streets, assuming their targets “must be lost” because they can’t parrot back to them certain code words and phrases that “prove” they are a Christian to them. Those who behave like this are under the influence of cultish training that cares nothing about the person being subjected to this form of abuse, but only in scoring points. I’m glad Tim Staples didn’t have that attitude, but after having been a dyed-in-the-wool member of the AoG for 20 years, I saw it all and most of it wasn’t pretty.
 
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Lazerlike42:
He’s teaching us a lesson that can be applied from anything from money to tv to even our families, to anything that is a barrier between us and God.
I agree. Jesus is teaching us that we can’t be perfect if we are inordinately attached to anything that is created.

So is imperfection an option for those that would have eternal life? Or can only the perfect obtain eternal life?
 
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Matt16_18:
I agree. Jesus is teaching us that we can’t be perfect if we are inordinately attached to anything that is created.

So is imperfection an option for those that would have eternal life? Or can only the perfect obtain eternal life?
Well remember verses 23-26 when Jesus says it is about impossible for a rich man to be saved, but that with God this is possible. In context, he is at least in some sense referring to the rich young man.

Do we have to be perfect? Well, and this is easier to understand in context of my explanation below, we have to have ourselves turned toward, and not away from God. We have to be open to perfection. It is almost impossible for a person on earth to be perfect. We have to strive for perfection, and eventually be perfect, but we probably won’t get there on earth. Whatever level of perfection we reach, God can finish the job for us when we die.
 
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Lazerlike42:
God made us for a purpose, and that purpose is unity with Him. He made us to be with Him.
Agreed.
When God made Adam and Eve, He didn’t tell them what things helped unify them with Him and what things seperated them because they knew preternaturally, which means that they knew in a way which was not even intellectual but their entire nature, almost in a way their “instincts” were geared toward those things and against the other things. In other words, they just naturally did what was good and didn’t know even that any other way of life existed.
Before the Fall, Adam and Eve possessed the preternatural gift of Holy Innocence. They knew the good alone, and they didn’t know how to abuse the good, since they had no knowledge of evil.
When they ate of the tree, their nature changed.
When Adam and Eve acquired the knowledge of evil, they immediately lost the gift of Holy Innocence, along with the other preternatural gifts, and sanctifying grace. They did not lose their human nature – they wounded it. They became slaves in bondage to sin. They did indeed know what sin was, since they had acquired the knowledge of evil.
Before, they naturally did what was geared toward unity with God. After, they became disordered so that they didn’t naturally do anything.
After the Fall, Adam and Eve suffered from concupiscence. They knew what was pleasing to God, but they were also in bondage to sin and slaves in the Kingdom of Satan.
All their ancestors were also disordered like this. Sometimes what they did was what helped to unify them with God. Sometimes they did what seperated them. The never knew which was which.
Men had knowledge of the natural law long before Moses received the Ten Commandments! Knowledge of the natural law is part of human nature.
See, even though we naturally know what is unifying, like Adam and Eve did, we still are disordered so that we don’t always want to do it like they did in the first place. Jesus gives us the strength to do what we know will unify us with God.
Unlike Adam and Eve before the Fall, all men, even the baptized, must struggle with concupiscence. CCC 1264 … certain temporal consequences of sin remain in the baptized, such as suffering, illness, death, and such frailties inherent in life as weaknesses of character, and so on, as well as an inclination to sin that Tradition calls concupiscence … since concupiscence “is left for us to wrestle with, it cannot harm those who do not consent but manfully resist it by the grace of Jesus Christ.”
 
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